don't retire now

**soogar** · 03-30-2004, 07:19 PM

So many people are concerned that if MK isn't around we won't get 3 spots. Come on! The ladies field at Nationals is a deep one and just b/c jenny was a dud in this championship doesn't mean all of the ladies are like that. One trend I've noticed is that whenever a skater retires, there's always another lady to bring up the slack. There are juniors who will be seniors next year who might make an impact. Plus with the code of points, there won't be so much reliance on holding up the champion and the judges will just score what they see which will open the doors to new people. I think that COP might be why the field was so deep this year b/c you have a lot of skaters who feel that they have a shot with this new system and are stepping up.

**adamlondon** · 03-30-2004, 07:52 PM

Gezando said
''The botched performance is doubling a lutz did not interupt the flow of the program, 6.0 does not mean perfect, just a place holder. Cohen botched her lp with a failed 2s that looked scratchy, and an unchecked triple flutz with a bledning jump exit, she received 3 ordinals over Michelle. Overall I think the judges called it right.''
I think 6.0 does mean perfect presentation, the place holder is the ranks i would think. And I don't know why Cohen was brought into the discussion, things like that are said in the michelle kwan forum. go have a look.

''Judges ready to crown MK in Turin LOL. Were jduges ready to crown Cohen as 2004 world champion going into the free skate, and did Shizuka made them change their mind. ''

I dont think they were ready to crown Sasha I dont know who said that. She is nowhere near Michelle's stature.

''Glad to see you are so supportive of Fumie. In fsu, some people who were there just like you said Fumie actually deserved to be placed #1 in the sp over Sasha. ''

I am supportive of Fumie. She's underrated I would say. I don't know what this has to do with Sasha again. Putting Fumie 1st over Sasha is completely ridicuolous. Who are these people?

''About 20% ticket sales, did you pay 20% of your ticket to watch Michelle or did you pay 100% of your tickets for a good competition?''

If anyone understand this statement please explain it to me, I must be going daft.

**tnt2002isnt** · 03-31-2004, 10:00 AM

Isn't it funny that whenever Michelle Kwan falters at a major competition (Which is always a silver or bronze medal btw), the subsequent hottest topic is whether or not she should retire. But when she would come back the following season with an amazing skate, suddenly we hear "Who says Michelle Kwan was going anywhere?!" I have no doubt that this young woman will make her detractors and critics eat their own worlds next season or at least refuse to retire just to p*ss them off. I have no doubt Michelle will retire when she feels she's no longer skating just for the joy of it and the passion to skate competitively is no longer there. I haven't seen that reflected in her skating yet, have you?

Although there appeared to be a big stink at this years World Championships, it didn't quite succeed in driving Kwan off the ice. And the skating world should breath a sigh of relief that she didn't just pack up her bags and leave. There might be a lot of people out there who are not Kwan fans, but I can safely assume that there are even MORE people who are devoted fans of her. It doesn't matter if you dislike her skating or love it beyond devotion, you will have to acknowledge that figure skating will never be quite the same again once she's gone.

**mzheng** · 03-31-2004, 10:50 AM

Originally posted by soogar
So many people are concerned that if MK isn't around we won't get 3 spots. Come on! The ladies field at Nationals is a deep one and just b/c jenny was a dud in this championship doesn't mean all of the ladies are like that. One trend I've noticed is that whenever a skater retires, there's always another lady to bring up the slack. There are juniors who will be seniors next year who might make an impact. Plus with the code of points, there won't be so much reliance on holding up the champion and the judges will just score what they see which will open the doors to new people. I think that COP might be why the field was so deep this year b/c you have a lot of skaters who feel that they have a shot with this new system and are stepping up.

Yes. US has a deep lady field. But no one is as consistant. It takes top 2 placements added to 13 to secure 3 berth for US. If MK choose retiring now, it would be like post 1992 Kristi went pro, leave US team on hand of Kerrigan, Harding, etc. they blew up at 1993 worlds only getting two spots instead of three.

Assume Sasha stay on podium next year, which is an IF, since Sasha has never been consistant like this world. A top 6 finish is a much safe betting. Who do you think US can send to worlds to get a top 10 finish?

People had a big expectation on Jenny, since she almost beat Sasha at SA, but look at where she finished under big pressure.

BTW,
besides the top 2 placement have to add up to 13. Is there any other way, like Gold or Silver finish, to get 3 berthes?

**Joesitz** · 03-31-2004, 11:37 AM

Originally posted by adamlondon
Another think I reckon for her is that the judges did hold her up in Dortmund. If you look at the QR which she totally blew (for her standards) she still came in third whilst Fumie ended up in 7th place. Even in the LP she got so many sixes for a bothced performance and I really think the messae for her is to stay on, compete. I can tell you MK has brought so much more to skating than most people think. I bet about 20% of the ticket sales have in part to do with her being there. Then there's TV audiences, merchandise and all the stuff about inspiration for young skaters... So just like they were ready to crown her Olympic CHampion in Salt Lake they will be more than ready in Turin to give it to her.

Very interesting post. Lots of analytical thought. I agree she was held up in the Quali but the next set of judges knocked her down in the SP (for revenge?) and the third set of judges thought she was super sensational and she got all those 6s. So in my analytical thoughts, she is a skater that is loved or hated not only with fans but with judges so placements are very much dependent on who is judging. One thing is sure, if she falters, she will pay the penalty. There will no holding her up.

Will she be Queen of Moscow or Queen of Torino? It's a slippery subjective sport. No one has that answer.

Joe

**mzheng** · 03-31-2004, 11:51 AM

Originally posted by Joesitz
Very interesting post. Lots of analytical thought. I agree she was held up in the Quali but the next set of judges knocked her down in the SP (for revenge?) and the third set of judges thought she was super sensational and she got all those 6s. So in my analytical thoughts, she is a skater that is loved or hated not only with fans but with judges so placements are very much dependent on who is judging. One thing is sure, if she falters, she will pay the penalty. There will no holding her up.

Joe

The SP and LP have the same judge panel. May be some of them thought they did enough in SP to knock her down. At that point 6.0s are not relavant anyway.

**Mathman** · 03-31-2004, 01:24 PM

or at least refuse to retire just to p*ss them off.

I know that's what I'd do, if I were Michelle, LOL.

Thanks for posting, tnt, and welcome to the forum.

Mathman

**soogar** · 03-31-2004, 02:26 PM

It takes time to build a ladies team. What really hurt us is 1993 was the lack of time between the two Olympic games. As a result, it really hurt us when Kristi retired and Tonya didn't make the 1993 team (which maybe in hindsight they should have just held her up and put her on it b/c I saw that Nationals and while she skated poorly, she wasn't *that* bad). I see it as a detriment that MK has stayed in for so long b/c that she's taking up a spot when we could be giving two girls experience to compete to build them up for the next games. For example, in the year they held Sasha up despite Ann Patrice skating so well with a 3-3 combo. Sasha is the future and I don't disagree about holding her up and Sarah skated well but perhaps it would have been good for Ann Patrice to experience worlds. Even Tara had to get the kinks out in her debut at worlds (hosing up her SP but skating great in the LP and gaining experience in the process). I'm sure that Sarah's experience at two previous worlds helped her out tremendously in SLC while Sasha's lack of Worlds experience with SLC being her first big senior int'l event hurt her.

No I don't think MK should retire to allow someone a spot, but in teh old days when the skaters turned pro, a new crop of performers would fill their place. There are only 3 spots on the Nat'l team and if you're holding 2 spots for established performers, you're only allowing 1 new girl to have a shot (and last year no one had a shot b/c Sarah and Sasha were assured spots on the team in addition to MK). There's still a lot of respect afforded to returning competitors if they place well in the previous year's worlds despite perhaps not skating their best in Nationals they are still awarded a spot on the team even if someone skates better than them.

**adamlondon** · 03-31-2004, 05:39 PM

that you agree she was held up. but if the judging panel were the same for both short and long then i would agree that she was still held up. my take is that after shizuka skated they knew they could rearrange the lesser podium standings however they wanted. so after going with arakawa, giving MK's sixes and even placing her first will not give her the gold so they thought they might sensationalise the whole Free by throwing out sixes. Just like for Shen and Zhao, do you think the russian judges and their alliances will give them 1st? they know full well they can throw out the sixes and judge correctly after they know T and M were going to get gold. I remember they got a 2nd place last year after the phenomenal turandot program, as he or she who gave S and Z the 2nd place thought some judges might be as unscrupulous as he to put them 2nd. So on that night after the Nutcracker if they were in control of their own destiny like Dick would say you might not see all 1's or so many 6s im sure

**mzheng** · 03-31-2004, 05:58 PM

Originally posted by soogar

I see it as a detriment that MK has stayed in for so long b/c that she's taking up a spot when we could be giving two girls experience to compete to build them up for the next games. For example, in the year they held Sasha up despite Ann Patrice skating so well with a 3-3 combo. Sasha is the future and I don't disagree about holding her up and Sarah skated well but perhaps it would have been good for Ann Patrice to experience worlds. Even Tara had to get the kinks out in her debut at worlds (hosing up her SP but skating great in the LP and gaining experience in the process). I'm sure that Sarah's experience at two previous worlds helped her out tremendously in SLC while Sasha's lack of Worlds experience with SLC being her first big senior int'l event hurt her.

No I don't think MK should retire to allow someone a spot, but in teh old days when the skaters turned pro, a new crop of performers would fill their place. There are only 3 spots on the Nat'l team and if you're holding 2 spots for established performers, you're only allowing 1 new girl to have a shot (and last year no one had a shot b/c Sarah and Sasha were assured spots on the team in addition to MK). There's still a lot of respect afforded to returning competitors if they place well in the previous year's worlds despite perhaps not skating their best in Nationals they are still awarded a spot on the team even if someone skates better than them.

Well talk about the young commer need experience. Then MK had stay out GP for two seasons. What about our young team done in GPs?

So according to you UAFSA should've send Sasha, Sarah, and AP last year to world. MK should've stay home and retire last season. Never mention it was USFSA called her a favor of SA.

Don't forget what Rusian fedration desperately put Irina on Rusian team regardless she had been sick for all season, I doubt USFSA will leave a health MK at home next year. It's your opinion that MK should retired let young skater has experience. Let's see what USFSA has to say. I think it's a fact that USFSA needs her.

**BronzeisGolden** · 03-31-2004, 06:43 PM

Great post, TNT! I'm with you word for word on that one! Also, I'd be thrilled if Michelle, Irina and all of the other old chicks stayed in until Turin. They still have so much to offer.

**gezando** · 04-02-2004, 07:52 PM

I think 6.0 does mean perfect presentation, the place holder is the ranks i would think.

Marks are place holders including 6.0s. Michelle skated after Sasha, and by most reports and what they showed on TV, Sasha's lp was not a stellar performance, and if she received some 5.9 and 5.8 for presentation, the judges had to give some 6.0s to Michelle. What do you mean by the place holders are the ranks? You mean the ordinals? How are ordinals generated? By the marks, so marks are place holders. I don't care if the judges give MK a 5.0 for the world lp as long as relative to her SC gets a 4.9. You talk so much about MK being held up, do you disagree with the final placement that she should have the bronze? If you don't, then all the grudging about the 6.0s does not make much sense to me.

I did not see the QR, so no comment there, but from what they showed on TV, MK as not held up. Sometimes even the same judging panel can differ from QR, to SP to lp. Sometimes if they think they had overmark a skater in the QR, they may penalize them in the following SP and LP too. Actually the QR are divided into 2 groups so the QR judges likely are not the same judges for the sp and lp.

I think the judges made the right call re: MK's placement and marks in the SP and LP.

**Joesitz** · 04-03-2004, 08:36 AM

We had a poll on this topic not too long ago.

It seemed that there were a few who thought only Michelle retire and the older Russian Ladies were ok to remain in competition.

You figure....

Joe

**soogar** · 04-03-2004, 01:27 PM

Mzheng:

The USFSA doesn't necessarily think long term in anything and it wouldn't surprise me that they would go for the quick fix , ie MK securing 3 spots rather than look forward and develop new talent. The USFSA sends girls to the Grand Prix events , however how you even equate a Grand Prix event with Worlds which is a different ballgame entirely. Plus if there is a skater who does well in Grand Prix competing against 3 skaters who have had good results at worlds in the prior year, who do you think is going to make that team? The USFSA is going to put the 3 skaters who performed well at worlds on that team before someone with a great Grand Prix performance b/c they want to go with the surest bet for a team.

I think AP was robbed when she did all those jumps and I think she had a 3-3 combo yet they USFSA sent Sasha to Worlds when she didn't skate well at Nationals. I think that's really discouraging. Also MK has competed for 11 years and has had the opportunity to go to Worlds even when she skated that nightmarish performance at Nats in 1997- if she can't get the required elements to win an OGM, why not let someone else have that opportunity to compete. She's already competed in 2 games (present at 3 Olympics) and 11 worlds.

And let's not forget that even MK competed at her first 2 worlds with no medals so everyone has to start from somewhere.

**Joesitz** · 04-03-2004, 08:55 PM

Let me clear this up. The Ladies event had the same judges in the SP and LP and the Quali had half of them in A and half in B.

I do believe some people see Ladies Figure Skating as a kiddie sport, and no one over 16 should compete, especially Americans.

What is the rush to retirement for MK? and no one else? Can anyone who feels MK should retire explain it bearing in mind that Sasha and Shizuka will be entering their 20s soon, and have been skating competitions for sometime.

Joe