Figure Skating's Love Affairs with Little Girls

karlowens2 · Feb 28, 2014

Olympia said:
This is the one issue that always haunts me about skating. I can hardly deal with it at all in gymnastics anymore, because the competitors are so often unnaturally tiny and childlike, and what the girls do is often so perilous--far more so than most of the men's events, which are largely based on strength. Now I watch only during the Olympics. But my love for skating is so profound that I would be hard-pressed to give it up.

I agree that mature artistry, with an understanding of the music, is more to my liking. In fact, though I could appreciate Oksana Baiul's obvious gifts, I preferred Nancy's style because it was smoother and more powerful, and also less adorned. I often found Oksana's arm movements fussy. I also felt that her posture was a bit hunched. That's my personal taste, though, so I can't argue it with any sense of conviction. For Russian artistry, I much prefer Katia Gordeyeva, who had great simplicity and flow when she skated at the peak of her technical powers (her partnership with Sergei) and retained that quality into her later solo career.

One thing I notice that heartens me a bit is that the supremacy of sprites has tended to come in cycles, interspersed with strong, graceful, mature athlete/artists. Even more satisfying is the fact that many of these mature skaters are the former small fry, who have stayed in and grown with the years. Michelle, Irina, YuNa, Mao, Shizuka, and Carolina are prime examples. I think in a way that CoP has facilitated this, because it stresses so many things besides the jumps.

(In a funny way, Michelle was an exception to the rule of sprites reigning supreme. Somehow by the time she reached that marvelous level of artistry, when she was still just fifteen, we didn't think of her as a sprite, and indeed she wasn't. Her skating wasn't spindly, wobbly, or juniorish. It wasn't "promising." It was already there. But a talent like hers doesn't come along every day.)

I strongly agree that this is a question that must continue to be asked. It's an important obligation that we fans have, I think.

One detail I'd like to point out (not that I'm trying to undermine your argument) is that Greg Louganis actually showed up and wowed everyone when he was sixteen, in the 1976 Games, I believe. He came within inches of beating the then-supreme diver Klaus Dibiasi (who was in his late twenties) for the gold. But like Kwan, Louganis was an exceptional athlete, mature at an early age and able to grow and improve through a long career. The gap between that Olympics and his string of gold-medal games was long, because the boycott kept him out of the 1980 Moscow games, so by the time we saw him again as an Olympian, he was at the peak of his powers and pretty much remained there. But I just bring it up because Louganis, like Kwan, breaks all the patterns. And aren't we lucky when someone like either of them comes along?

Thanks for the info on Louganis. I think you are right. There are avatars who seem almost from the beginning to have it all (Barbra Striesand singing Cry Me a River at 17). My aunt saw a high school gymnastics meet once where on landing her vault the girl´s shin bones shattered and came through the skin. It hurts even to write it. It is important to discuss this. It might mean we will have to give up the thrill of the very young doing impossible feats - so be it.

Sam-Skwantch · Feb 28, 2014

Straight from Wikipedia

Denise Biellmann (born December 11, 1962) is a Swiss professional figure skater. She is the 1981 European and World Champion. She won the Swiss Championships three times.

Amateur career
Denise Biellmann was born in Zurich. She won her first international championship, in Belgium, when she was aged just eight, and at eleven, she won the Swiss junior figure skating championships.[2] At 14, she competed at the 1977 European Championships and placed second in the free skating portion of the competition.

At the age of 15, she was the first female skater to land the triple lutz in competition, which she performed for the first time at the 1978 European Championships.[3] At the same event, she became the first woman to receive a 6.0 in technical merit, receiving the score from British judge Pauline Borrajo.[3] She was 12th in figures, first in the free skate, and finished fourth overall.[3]

At the 1980 Winter Olympics, she won the free skating event and placed fourth overall.

Should we have prevented all this from happening?

lady_bee · Feb 28, 2014

Olympia said:
I strongly agree that this is a question that must continue to be asked. It's an important obligation that we fans have, I think.

I totaly agree woth you. This question never has simple answer; therfore, we have to keep talking about it.

Sam-Skwantch · Feb 28, 2014

lady_bee said:
I totaly agree woth you. This question never has simple answer; therfore, we have to keep talking about it.

Fair enough...my question is would it not be a parents right to make these descisions? If not than who does? Lets assume a 14yr old for example is good enough to compete at the elite level of skateboarding halfpipe, how do you keep them motivated to wait four more years to even do so? Is this 14 yr old not risking injury in training doing all the moves his/her older peers are only he/she has no chance of reward based simply on age? How is this fair? Is the 14 yr old not going to skateboard in the meantime? Wouldn't that be an even more sad outcome?

leafygreens · Feb 28, 2014

sgsmozart said:
I believe 18 should be the minimum age to compete in either the Olympics or the World Championships. After all, it is called "Ladies Figure Skating" not "Little Girls Figure Skating". Just because a skater can grab her leg and pull it up over her head doesn't make it a beautiful or artistic move.

I agree.

CezarMart said:
The maniacal conspiracy obsession thread is much much worse...

And yet you comment in both :laugh:

Mt. Adam · Feb 28, 2014

Peak Age of Female Figure Skaters

List of Gold Medalists in Olympic Winter Games

Age, Gold Medalist, Olympic Games
-----------------------------------------------------------
27 Madge Syers 1908 London
25 Magda Julin 1920 Antwerp
21 Herma Szabo 1924 Chamonix
15 Sonja Henie 1928 St. Moritz
19 Sonja Henie 1932 Lake Placid
23 Sonja Henie 1936 Garmisch-Partenkirchen
19 Barbara-Ann Scott 1948 St. Moritz
21 Jeannette Altwegg 1952 Oslo
Average age (1908 to 1952) = 21.3 years old
-----------------------------------------------------------
20 Tenley Albright 1956 Cortina d'Ampezzo
20 Carol Heiss 1960 Squaw Valley
22 Sjoukje Dijkstra 1964 Innsbruck
19 Peggy Fleming 1968 Grenoble
20 Trixi Schuba 1972 Sapporo
19 Dorothy Hamill 1976 Innsbruck
19 Anett Pötzsch 1980 Lake Placid
18 Katarina Witt 1984 Sarajevo
Average age (1956 to 1984) = 19.6 years old
-----------------------------------------------------------
22 Katarina Witt 1988 Calgary
20 Kristi Yamaguchi 1992 Albertville
16 Oksana Baiul 1994 Lillehammer
15 Tara Lipinski 1998 Nagano
16 Sarah Hughes 2002 Salt Lake City
24 Shizuka Arakawa 2006 Turin
19 Kim Yu-Na 2010 Vancouver
17 Adelina Sotnikova 2014 Sochi
Average age (1988 to 2014) = 18.6 years old

I think female skaters reach their glorious moments way too early because in my opinion they cannot continue the sport due to numerous injuries rather then diminishing skills. When the pattern shown above continues, the Olympics and any other major competition will be dominated by early-teenage junior players in the near future.

KJGL · Feb 28, 2014

wow. I do kind of remember 19 being what seemed like a *magic age* for female figure skaters to peak, but never realized so few OGM winners over the age of 20.

kind of makes Carolina Kostner's accomplishment all the more impressive. at 27 years old increased her difficulty to be competitive, skated two nearly flawless, OGM-caliber programs.

Ace · Feb 28, 2014

I don't think it is fair to say they is something creepy going on. Sure, there are probably some people who like watching Julia for all the wrong reasons, but mainly there was a huge excitement over her Team final performances because they were incredible and people couldn't believe someone so young could be so good. Even people who I know who don't particularly enjoy figure skating mentioned her performances to me, just because they were impressed. The younger someone is the more amazed people are when they do something great.

I think some people are bitter that someone so young did better than older competitors and are trying to pretend they actually think she is too young to compete with others

Mt. Adam · Feb 28, 2014

Ace said:
I think some people are bitter that someone so young did better than older competitors and are trying to pretend they actually think she is too young to compete with others

To my observation, in this forum or outside, nobody discussed from the age perspective when they compared the top players in Sochi. You missed the point.

gkelly · Feb 28, 2014

Thanks for the list of ages.

Mt. Adam said:
I think female skaters reach their glorious moments way too early because in my opinion they cannot continue the sport due to numerous injuries rather then diminishing skills.

Yes.

And money, especially in earlier eras when skaters had to remain strict amateurs. If you won at 19 or 20, you turned pro and cashed in. If you didn't win, you had to consider whether another year, or another four years, of expensive training would be worth the investment, or whether it was time to turn pro and start earning, get started in a different career/go to college, and/or start a family.

Or in countries where the federation/government was paying for the training, they had to consider whether to continue to back a skater who may have already peaked short of the top prize.

Olympia · Feb 28, 2014

KJGL said:
wow. I do kind of remember 19 being what seemed like a *magic age* for female figure skaters to peak, but never realized so few OGM winners over the age of 20.

kind of makes Carolina Kostner's accomplishment all the more impressive. at 27 years old increased her difficulty to be competitive, skated two nearly flawless, OGM-caliber programs.

(Thanks for the list of ages, by the way, Mt. Adam. Very enlightening!)

Yes, it makes Carolina's achievement remarkable, and also Shizuka's. Also, both these ladies achieved their goal with a well-maintained arsenal of triple-triples and other challenging jumps, which makes the feat even more admirable. They didn't just substitute interpretative powers for technique; they added artistry.

I'd add Akiko to that list, because although she hasn't been consistent, when she's on, she has a high level of skill that she can call on.

The other nice thing about these three skaters is that in one way or another they are bigger than the childlike physique that supposedly gives younger skaters an advantage. Though Carolina is slim, she's 5'7", Shizuka is tall, and Akiko is compact and muscular rather than wispy.

Ace · Feb 28, 2014

Mt. Adam said:
To my observation, in this forum or outside, nobody discussed from the age perspective when they compared the top players in Sochi. You missed the point.

Maybe you didn't but there was a rather hilarious bitter American article about Julia being amazing but maybe too young. This came after the TE.

Icey · Mar 1, 2014

It creeps me out the way some of these young teenagers are costumed and made up. UGH. What kind of people purposely do something like that to a young girl?

karlowens2 · Mar 1, 2014

Icey said:
It creeps me out the way some of these young teenagers are costumed and made up. UGH. What kind of people purposely do something like that to a young girl?

Those fleshy material tops meant to simulate nakedness from cleavage to below belly button. That cheap dime-store make-up look. It IS creepy. Don´t tell me the adults who create this don´t have some twisted up bits.

Olympia · Mar 1, 2014

Icey said:
It creeps me out the way some of these young teenagers are costumed and made up. UGH. What kind of people purposely do something like that to a young girl?

One of the great things about Tara Lipinski during her competitive career was that she dressed suitably for her age. She even wore long sleeves.

Another great example of dressing right: Julia's red coat for her Schindler's List program this year was a beautiful way to deal with the situation. In addition to suiting the character of the girl in the coat perfectly, it also gave Julia an elegant but also youthful look that suited her age perfectly. This contrasts with Liza T's green costume of a few years ago, which seemed to be mostly triangles over flesh-colored fabric. Wasn't she thirteen at the time? Not tasteful.

Ace · Mar 1, 2014

Icey said:
It creeps me out the way some of these young teenagers are costumed and made up. UGH. What kind of people purposely do something like that to a young girl?

Oh I definitely agree with this. Certain outfits Julia and other really young skaters have worn have made me slightly uncomfortable. I know that is just the way they dress but it definitely would appeal to certain people.... Same with gymnastics which I also love.

concorde · Mar 1, 2014

Going back to issue of young girls skating at the elite level ... What a lot of you have not taken into account is the amount of time AND money that is required to become an elite figure skating. Most skaters are funded by their parents and at some point, the parents reach a point of "no more." While some will disagree with my next statement, I believe that school age children tend to have a lot more "free" time the "working" adults.

My daughter is a an avid skater. I can see letting her go "all out" through high school but come college, I want her to focus on her studies which will really shape her future. My guess is she will coach ice skating during college but that takes ALOT less time than maintaining/improving the skills to be an elite skater. Being an elite skater is a full-time job.

Bottom line - remaining an elite skater is just not maintainable for most families even when you take away the injuries. Injuries are not unique to ice skating - even "low impact" sports like swimming have repetitive motion injuries.

We know a former Olympic ice skater. At his "peak," his family was spending $100,000 per year.

verysmuchso · Mar 1, 2014

concorde said:
Going back to the age issue ... What a lot of you have not taken into account is the amount of time AND money that is required to become an elite figure skating. Most skaters are funded by their parents and at some point, the parents reach a point of "no more." While some will disagree with this statement, school age children tend to have a lot more "free" time the "working" adults.

My daughter is a an avid skater. I can see letting her go "all out" through high school but come college, I want her to focus on her studies. My guess is she will coach ice skating during college but that takes ALOT less time than maintaining/improving the skills to be an elite skater. Being an elite skater is a full-time job.

Bottom line - remaining an elite skater is just maintainable for most families, even when you take away the injuries. Injuries are not unique to ice skating - even "low impact" sports like swimming have repetitive motion injuries.

So true. Thanks for that input!

Olympia · Mar 1, 2014

Thanks so much for the insights, Concorde!

Golly, a hundred thousand dollars a year. Imagine if there are two skating siblings...wow.

concorde · Mar 1, 2014

And that $100K was from about 10 years ago. With two skaters, the Gold family ice skating bill has got to be incredible - probably a minimum of $150K. I'm not sure how much USFS pays.

My guess is that the parents are spending $40K-$50K for any child to reach the US National stage, even at the Juevenile level. Some rinks give ice time discounts for sibling but that is only about 10%. I have never heard of coaching discounts for multiple skaters. Early on someone told me that if you take over XX lessons a week for one coach, you can get a discount - I have yet to see it.

As I said before, the amount of money that is needed to develop/maintain an elite ice skater is not sustainable to the majority of families. And that this not mention the family's time commitment, which I find worst than the financial expense.

Figure Skating's Love Affairs with Little Girls

karlowens2

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

lady_bee

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

leafygreens

Mt. Adam

Match Penalty

KJGL

Ace

Mt. Adam

Match Penalty

gkelly

Olympia

Ace

Icey

karlowens2

Olympia

Ace

concorde

verysmuchso

Olympia

concorde

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