Figure Skating's Love Affairs with Little Girls

Icey said:

It creeps me out the way some of these young teenagers are costumed and made up. UGH. What kind of people purposely do something like that to a young girl?

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Costumes, yes, in some cases. But the make=up just doesn't bother me that much. Stop by your local high school and for every 15 year old skater you see on the ice in full make-up, you'll find three girls the same age with six layers of inappropriate make-up whether it is a three inch layer of cream eye shadow (that was a popular thing for awhile at the last school I taught at with a group of freshman girls) or an overabundance of black liquid eyeliner, or glitter gone wild. (Granted, you'll also find an equivalent number wearing no make-up at all--the smallest group will be those in appropriate make-up--teens are given to extremes). Fifteen is not barely out of diapers as people are making it out to be in this thread. And it is no accident that in the majority of her off ice photos on Twitter, Gracie is still wearing that red lipstick. She likes it. And she will outgrow it. And unlike most of her peers, her unfortunate obsession with the wrong color has been immortalized on video and in photos by the mass media.

concorde said:

My guess is that the parents are spending $40K-$50K for any child to reach the US National stage, even at the Juevenile level. Some rinks give ice time discounts for sibling but that is only about 10%. I have never heard of coaching discounts for multiple skaters. Early on someone told me that if you take over XX lessons a week for one coach, you can get a discount - I have yet to see it.

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Never heard of a discount either and to rent the ice for an hour and have a private session is $250 an hour at my rink not counting coaching fees. Below is my breakdown for a barely above average skater in my region.

At my rink if I skate 15 hrs a week that's $165. If I were to maintain that average for an entire year than that will be ~$8,500. Now that's without a coach. Most coaches are around $50-$75 an hour. Lets say I get a more average coach at $50 an hour. For only 5hrs of my 15hrs per week being with a coach that is $250 per week or ~$13,000 a year. So that is over $20,000 a year and that's just an above average skater with slightly above average time on ice. You can see when you factor in what an elite coach and elite skater who is spending a lot more time on ice can cost per year.

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I posted this on another thread but seems relevant here now.

A story about the Reynolds brother&sister ice dance team who made it to US Nationals on a shoe string, and how they did it. Very difficult.

http://www.ice-dance.com/main/news/...eynolds-stephen-reynolds-the-battle-to-boston

concorde said:

My guess is that the parents are spending $40K-$50K for any child to reach the US National stage, even at the Juevenile level.

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Yes, it probably does take that much to get to US Nationals in most disciplines. Maybe not in ice dance if you're in a section with less competition at your level. (I would say the same for pairs, which usually has even less competition, but pair skaters need to learn all the singles skills as well as the pair moves.)

As I said before, the amount of money that is needed to develop/maintain an elite ice skater is not sustainable to the majority of families. And that this not mention the family's time commitment, which I find worst than the financial expense.

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This is definitely true.

The media often talk about the top level of expense and time commitment it takes to get to national and international levels -- as an indication of what it took to produce the elite skaters we like to watch on TV.

But I do wish there would be some more acknowledgment that figure skating can be a casual or a serious hobby for people who love the process but don't have the time and/or money to invest in elite-track competition (or the physical talent to get there even if they do put in that time). There's a continuum between casual basic skating, say one series of introductory group lessons and a few trips a year to public sessions or frozen ponds, vs. ongoing group lessons and practice a couple times a week, maybe one private lesson a week, up to a few lessons a week and a couple hours of practice most days. You can be "a figure skater" and enter local and maybe eventually regional competitions with those levels of commitment, without expecting to get anywhere near the elite levels.

Even the group lessons and occasional practice would be out of reach for low-income families, but in line with other organized sports and lessons that are common in middle-class families . . . assuming there's a rink nearby that offers appropriate programs and ice time.

It's only worth committing to ongoing lessons etc. if you really like doing it -- but I think a lot of people don't even try because they think they

However, if you have a kid who dreams of being an elite skater, it's probably best to be realistic with them early on about what kind of commitment the family is able to support. Coaches that try to steer everyone toward multiple lessons a week right from the start can be a problem.

verysmuchso said:

Twenty-nine heartbroken girls for every one smiling dictator.....and the Yulia hype I experienced during the course of the Sochi Olympics made me quietly whisper words like 'voyeurism' and 'pedo fetish' in the wholesome guise of sports and feel sad for girls retiring at the ripe old age of 23, with multiple injuries. It made me wonder, above all, what it means to be a fan of Olympic figure skating. Are we pure aesthetes, oblivious to its political underpinnings, and how it reflects on what the society sees as an ideal female body and women's place within it. Your thoughts....

Some reading about what it was like to be no longer a little girl
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eliza...l?utm_hp_ref=healthy-living&ir=Healthy Living

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While I agree that this is a problem, it isn't just figure skating. I have several nephews who are heavily involved in sports, some with considerable parental pressure, some not. All of these boys have had surgery to correct overuse injuries before leaving high school. One while in middle school. The former middle schooler was a fairly good pitcher at his level. He was pushed to be a better pitcher and now he cannot pitch at all. Ever again.

I don't know what the answer is in figure skating, where, in order to do what it takes to win, one must be a young female of a body type that is not particularly normal for the huge majority of young women. Dreaming here - I would like to see a new skating discipline that empasizes artistry over ability to rotate quickly. OR, a judging system that does not prefer triple/triples over other elements. I actually think it can be done, a judging system can reward whatever it wants. I would like to see a system where a strong athletic skater and a more artistic skater are on the same footing when it comes to chances to win. Both will be good at different things - things that are weighted equally.

RobinA said:

While I agree that this is a problem, it isn't just figure skating. I have several nephews who are heavily involved in sports, some with considerable parental pressure, some not. All of these boys have had surgery to correct overuse injuries before leaving high school. One while in middle school. The former middle schooler was a fairly good pitcher at his level. He was pushed to be a better pitcher and now he cannot pitch at all. Ever again.

I don't know what the answer is in figure skating, where, in order to do what it takes to win, one must be a young female of a body type that is not particularly normal for the huge majority of young women. Dreaming here - I would like to see a new skating discipline that empasizes artistry over ability to rotate quickly. OR, a judging system that does not prefer triple/triples over other elements. I actually think it can be done, a judging system can reward whatever it wants. I would like to see a system where a strong athletic skater and a more artistic skater are on the same footing when it comes to chances to win. Both will be good at different things - things that are weighted equally.

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It absolutely is not just figure skating. I taught kids who trained intensely for their sport year round. One girl traveled 40 miles one way every day to train at an elite training center for volleyball. The school season was almost a break for her as practices and schedules were less intense and she wasn't traveling the entire country to play. I saw at least one kid a year have a torn ACL repaired, saw over use injuries, saw wrestlers nearly cease to function due to coaches encouraging disordered eating to make a weight class much too low for them, watched one kid experience intense pressure to practically single handedly bring home a state basketball title for the school (people with no connection to our school or our opponents would pack our gym to watch a teenage boy play basketball) and that is just the beginning.

The worst case I saw was a mom and dad who doctor shopped for nearly a year to find a doctor willing to sign off that it was okay for their son to continue playing football after having four concussions in one season. He had not come to from the last one for nearly 30 minutes and been taken to the hospital. But the glory of high school football was more important than what might have happened to his brain in the long term.

Oh, my, doesn't it break your heart to contemplate the way some kids are fed into the meat grinder of competitive sports. And by their parents, no less.

And I imagine that in a country where there is a deep field of kids who are good at that particular sport, especially gymnastics or figure skating, the kids might be considered almost disposable. Always plenty more where that one came from, after all.

One thing that especially distresses me about skating and gymnastics is the age difference between genders of the perceived years of excellence. It's even more obvious in gymnastics that a mature, fully muscled body is an asset for men, while an immature, light body (therefore a younger one) is optimal for "ladies." I remember some clearly ill-informed reporter once asking Kurt Thomas, the American gymnastics champ, whether he ever dated other gymnasts. He laughed and said how could he, when most of the girls were seven years or so younger than he was. Because of the premium placed on underaged and undersized girls, they are in special danger in these two sports, in a way that they are not in, say, soccer or track or softball, where their gifts can develop more slowly.

I agree that this type of parental behavior (for lack of a better description) is rampant in any sport...not just figure skating or gymnastics. I don't know that figure skating is any worse than others except for the fact that small bodies allow for tight rotations and a lightness on the ice. What does disturb me is the costuming and makeup. Kaetlyn Osmond with her butt half hanging out of her panties and her choreography just turned me off. At least Yulia's costume was not offensive although anyone familiar with the holocaust may have been offended. At least it was somewhat age appropriate. While I think Polina Edmunds could use a good stylist (ditch the weird braids please) her music and her choreography was age appropriate. Adelina's dress was more revealing earlier in the season and was not attractive in my opinion. But I don't think you have to have sexy moves in your choreography to lay down a good program. And you can fault the choreographers for planning that and the judges for rewarding it - AND the parents for paying for it. I personally would rather see a healthy body out there. For example, to detract from the girls for a minute, I don't find Hanyu's skating appealing because he looks like he needs a Big Mac and a chocolate shake. And yet, you won't find tighter rotation or quickness in jumps in many other men. I just don't find it as graceful as a Patrick Chan or even Daisuke.

noskates said:

I agree that this type of parental behavior (for lack of a better description) is rampant in any sport...not just figure skating or gymnastics. I don't know that figure skating is any worse than others except for the fact that small bodies allow for tight rotations and a lightness on the ice. What does disturb me is the costuming and makeup. Kaetlyn Osmond with her butt half hanging out of her panties and her choreography just turned me off. At least Yulia's costume was not offensive although anyone familiar with the holocaust may have been offended. At least it was somewhat age appropriate. While I think Polina Edmunds could use a good stylist (ditch the weird braids please) her music and her choreography was age appropriate. Adelina's dress was more revealing earlier in the season and was not attractive in my opinion. But I don't think you have to have sexy moves in your choreography to lay down a good program. And you can fault the choreographers for planning that and the judges for rewarding it - AND the parents for paying for it. I personally would rather see a healthy body out there. For example, to detract from the girls for a minute, I don't find Hanyu's skating appealing because he looks like he needs a Big Mac and a chocolate shake. And yet, you won't find tighter rotation or quickness in jumps in many other men. I just don't find it as graceful as a Patrick Chan or even Daisuke.

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Thin does not equal unhealthy anymore than carrying a bit of extra weight equals unhealthy. It is as insulting and demeaning to say a thin person needs to eat a burger as it would be to say a larger person needs to put one down.

Oh lighten up! I wasn't insulting OR demeaning Hanyu. I just don't prefer that teensy body type in skaters. I think figure skaters and gymnasts - some of both of which have chronicled their issues with maintaining their weight and dieting - strive for that almost anorexic look. Johnny Weir talked about eating a half of a tomato for dinner while his dinner companions were chowing down on steak. Ashley Wagner commented that Mr. Nicks would not be happy if she gained an ounce. There have been articles written about young gymnast girls who have delayed puberty because of the efforts to remain tiny and petite. So there is health and then there is health. I was not implying that Hanyu was unhealthy - but a little meat on him would be appreciated.

We were talking about the number of wedgies on the Olympic ice just last week at my rink. Is this the new "fashion" because none of us moms like it? Call me old fashioned but I won't be putting my daughter out in an bottom that does that!

I am a bit surprised that elite skaters cannot eat more. I would think that the amount of calories they burn in skating session would allow them to eat normal portions and maintain their weight. I remember reading about the crazy volume of food that Michael Phelps at when he was training. I do worry about Polina Edmunds. I think she looks anorexia but I figure she cannot be because she needs a lot of energy to skate at the level. If she were my child, I would be forcing her to eat more. I currently worry a lot about my child's weight because she skates so much. For a while, she was losing weight so now she drinks several Ensures (250+ calories each) a day so that she an maintain her current weight.

concorde said:

We were talking about the number of wedgies on the Olympic ice just last week at my rink. Is this the new "fashion" because none of us moms like it? Call me old fashioned but I won't be putting my daughter out in an bottom that does that!

I am a bit surprised that elite skaters cannot eat more. I would think that the amount of calories they burn in skating session would allow them to eat normal portions and maintain their weight. I remember reading about the crazy volume of food that Michael Phelps at when he was training. I do worry about Polina Edmunds. I think she looks anorexia but I figure she cannot be because she needs a lot of energy to skate at the level. If she were my child, I would be forcing her to eat more. I currently worry a lot about my child's weight because she skates so much. For a while, she was losing weight so now she drinks several Ensures (250+ calories each) a day so that she an maintain her current weight.

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Oh..I have the same problem with you. My daughter is skating a lot too. She is way too skinny(almost 10kilos underweight). Her metabolism works different. Her doctor told me not to worry much since she is very healthy. Still.. can't stop worrying.

louisa05 said:

The worst case I saw was a mom and dad who doctor shopped for nearly a year to find a doctor willing to sign off that it was okay for their son to continue playing football after having four concussions in one season. He had not come to from the last one for nearly 30 minutes and been taken to the hospital. But the glory of high school football was more important than what might have happened to his brain in the long term.

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That's deeply disturbing. Not much different from child abuse, IMO

Olympia said:

One thing that especially distresses me about skating and gymnastics is the age difference between genders of the perceived years of excellence. It's even more obvious in gymnastics that a mature, fully muscled body is an asset for men, while an immature, light body (therefore a younger one) is optimal for "ladies." I remember some clearly ill-informed reporter once asking Kurt Thomas, the American gymnastics champ, whether he ever dated other gymnasts. He laughed and said how could he, when most of the girls were seven years or so younger than he was. Because of the premium placed on underaged and undersized girls, they are in special danger in these two sports, in a way that they are not in, say, soccer or track or softball, where their gifts can develop more slowly.

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I actually find that there's more variety in body types in gymnastics now than there used to be, and I think the fact that they're pushing for more difficulty has opened the door for girls with 'powerful' body types (plus the minimum age was raised to 16 in the late 90s). If you look at the US Olympic team for 2008, neither Shawn Johnson nor Alicia Sacramone has the typical super-skinny pre-pubescent body that used to be typical for gymnasts at that level. Granted, there still plenty of thin girls, but it seems to me that in the 80s and 90s, it was much rarer to see girls with that kind of muscle and even a bit of curves. Or if you did see them, they weren't world champions or Olympic medalists.

peg said:

I actually find that there's more variety in body types in gymnastics now than there used to be, and I think the fact that they're pushing for more difficulty has opened the door for girls with 'powerful' body types (plus the minimum age was raised to 16 in the late 90s). If you look at the US Olympic team for 2008, neither Shawn Johnson nor Alicia Sacramone has the typical super-skinny pre-pubescent body that used to be typical for gymnasts at that level. Granted, there still plenty of thin girls, but it seems to me that in the 80s and 90s, it was much rarer to see girls with that kind of muscle and even a bit of curves. Or if you did see them, they weren't world champions or Olympic medalists.

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That is a good point, and thinking about the Fierce Five (plus Shawn J., who almost made it onto the 2012 team), I see that the body types are growing more varied. I'm glad it's happening!

And then of course, there's Oksana Chusovitina, who was 17 at her first Olympics, and 37 at her sixth, in 2012. She even won an Olympic medal in 2008, at the age of 33.

I remember watching her way back in 1991 at her first World Championships where she won on floor and medalled on vault when she 15.

noskates said:

At least Yulia's costume was not offensive although anyone familiar with the holocaust may have been offended. At least it was somewhat age appropriate.

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I don't understand what you mean by "somewhat age-appropriate" and "anyone familiar with the holocaust may be offended". Could you please elaborate?


In general:
I don't understand why someone has to start slamming this sport for such a weird idea when there are plenty of real problems to address. I mean for any sport you need to have a certain amount of technical ability and well as the competitive mind-set. You need the time/energy/results or infinite resources to be able to sustain a career in it. Half the sports out there are ones people will only do when they're younger and can devote themselves to it, because once they've "done what they are capable of' or reach the age where they want to move on to go after the true purposes of life. Rewarding work/love/family. For a select few skating is that, but for most, even the best of the best, skating is merely a stepping stone compared to the rest of their lives. Why wouldn't these athletes be young? it's when they're able/willing to do what it takes.