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Thread: B&S vs S&P - revisit 2001 worlds and SLC pairs

  1. #1
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    B&S vs S&P - revisit 2001 worlds and SLC pairs


    It's off season and I just reviewed the 2001 worlds and SLC tape.

    Which mistake is bigger in LP?
    1) singled a double axel (Jammie at 2001 World)
    2) a wonking landing of triple (Anton at SLC)

    If S&P deserved their winning in 2001 world exclusively (single Gold Medal awarded). Then B&S deserved their winning in SLC exclusively!

    What makes S&P think they should've win in SLC rightfully after their LP? May be they didn't say it out rightly but they sure behaved like they should've won. Especially Jammie. Andy that NBC commentator Scott and Sandra did a good job to stir the pot. They should've looked back at 2001 world to make thier outright cry.

    Comparing the podium at 2001 worlds and SLC, B&S cong the S&P at 2001 worlds graciously and geniously; while Jammie cried all the way at SLC podium in first Medal ceremery.

    I would say B&S behaved graciously both on and off the ice. They are the true champion at SLC.



  2. #2
    Joesitz
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    Re: B&S vs S&P - revisit 2001 worlds and SLC pairs


    Here we go again! Let's keep it so that it is the opinion of the posters and not the law of the land.

    Joe

  3. #3
    MSI83
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    Pair controversy


    Well I thought the results were fine, becuase I was never a fan of S&P's Love Story. The choreography was much simplier and bland compard to B&S.
    I thought it was unfair that Scott Hamilton immediately declared their win as wrong when in Lillehammer Oksana Baiul made at least *2* errors, yet he declared that contest "close".

  4. #4
    thvudragon
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    Re: Pair controversy


    <blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Well I thought the results were fine, becuase I was never a fan of S&P's Love Story. The choreography was much simplier and bland compard to B&S.
    I thought it was unfair that Scott Hamilton immediately declared their win as wrong when in Lillehammer Oksana Baiul made at least *2* errors, yet he declared that contest "close". [/quote]

    You have to remember that Scott Hamilton is the worst FS commentator of all time. He's worse than the Turkish one who calls the elements wrong.

    Now to the topic. In 2001 Worlds some of the judges admitted to not knowing that Jamie singled her axel. Ontop of that, the replay didn't work for S&P's program, so the judges had no way of checking to see if their elements were actually performed well. IMO, B&S won 2001, but that's just me.

    Now SLC, Love Story was, in the words of Phil Hersch, HOOKUM! That isn't pairs skating. They had poor "unison". They had long sections of seperation. Their program was very simplistic. Now, if S&P did orchid, and it was perfect, the best they could skate, i could possibly see how S&P could win. Love Story is a very weak program compared to Orchid, or Tristan and Iseult.

    Personally, I would have put B&S first in both instances. At 2001 Worlds, they were a little tentative, but they were clean and amazing to me. At SLC, there is no question, B&S. Meditation is much stronger program than the overly simplistic Love Story.

    I think S&P made a big mistake in choosing to use Love Story for the Olympics. All the improvemetns they made since 1999 were thrown away when they made this decision.

    TV

  5. #5
    nymkfan51
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    Re: Pair controversy


    Well ... I thought S&P skated somewhat better that night ... even though I prefer the style and program of B&S.
    I am in complete agreement though, about Scott's commentary. When, just before the 2nd throw jump of S&P, he said " they make this and the gold is their's " ... I thought he had lost his mind. It was way too close a call IMO to make that kind of statement. Then Sandra started with all the nonsense about being embarrassed for her sport. She and Scott were way over the top IMO. I think the competition was very close, so either couple winning would have been legitimate for me.

  6. #6
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    The thing bothered me is Jammie ...


    That she knew she made mistake the single axel in 2001 worlds (even judge did see the mistake) yet they won and Elena & Anton congrated them sinceerly without making any inproper comments. It was untill after SLC that their coach said something as 'last year (2001 worlds) we thought Elena&Anton should've won at Vencova but they didn't and we didn't complain. This is a subjective sport ....'

    Why she acted as if they should've won with a perfectly skated program at SLC even Anton made a mistake less seriously than the one she made at 2001 world. (Note that I said perfect skated LP, by no means I say their program was constructed better than Russian's. I agree every thing TV has to say about the programs at 2001 worlds and SLC from two teams). And all NA media hypes. It is really unfair to Russian teams.

    If Canadian could win 2001 with a flawed LP why Russian couldn't win SLC with a less flawed LP? You never know had Russian Fed or Referee put pressure on judge panel after the LP at 2001 worlds what would've turn up. It was so convienent that 2 judge didn't see Jammie singled axel and the computer replay for Canadian team was broken at the same time. I suppose under CoP there will be no such thing that judge didn't see the singled axel!

    And I think Chinese team is greatly undermarked, especially by Canadian judge, at 2001 worlds. What big improvment they got from 2001 to 2003? 5.4 presentation in SP at 2001? And 6.0 PM LP at 2003? I(Don't get me wrong I do think they deserve 6.0 LP in 2003 worlds. But 5.4 2001 worlds? way too low) IMO Chinese's 2001's SP was better than 2003's. And they may not have the crisma as Russian and Canadian but presentation is not all about the crisma what about the speed, ice coverage? Through the years watching pairs on US TV, Peter is the only one consistantly gave Chineses team the credit where they deserved.



  7. #7
    Pookie
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    Re: Pair controversy


    I think the double gold medals were one of the worst ideas they ever had. What are they going to do next time somebody whines? I think B&S were extremely gracious through the whole thing, also.

  8. #8
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    Re: Pair controversy


    <blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I think the double gold medals were one of the worst ideas they ever had. What are they going to do next time somebody whines?[/quote]

    Pookie, ITA. The good sportmanship is to follow judge's decision.

  9. #9
    berthes ghost
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    Re: Pair controversy


    "What are they going to do next time somebody whines?'

    If you think that they gave double gold because of whinning, you are seriously delusional.

    1. A judge confessed to cheating!!!!!!!! Does no one remember this? She confessed to cheating, they had no choice but to throw her vote out.
    2. That left 4 against 4. A perfect tie.

    I could go on for 16 pages on why B&S should have been the sole gold medalists, or why the decision to grant two was a mistake, but to make stupid stuff up is just childish.

  10. #10
    Joesitz
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    Re: Pair controversy


    Ladies, please, Whining is part of the game in figue skating. check out the IS interview. She is still whining over the SLC.

    Joe

  11. #11
    thvudragon
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    Re: Pair controversy


    <blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>If you think that they gave double gold because of whinning, you are seriously delusional.

    1. A judge confessed to cheating!!!!!!!! Does no one remember this? She confessed to cheating, they had no choice but to throw her vote out.
    2. That left 4 against 4. A perfect tie. [/quote]

    Hmmm........ lets see who she confessed to.... people like Stapleford who has her own agenda. Her and Pfenning are just as unfit to judge as Le Gougne. Stapleford has been known to tell judges in review meetings who she thinks is the "better" skater, I'm sure this is in no way "influencing" other judges. And Pfenning, before the Pairs SP in SLC, he told the judges not to give anything higher than a 5.8 to B&S because of their early draw.

    Since Le Gougne has not publicy said she has cheated and has since denied any wrongdoing, we have no other recourse but to believe her. She claims Stapleford confronted her after the Pairs LP and forced her to admit to cheating, which i see as perfectly concievable.

    Then we have the person who awarded the duplicate gold, Rogge. Now, he has much reason to keep the integrity of figure skating in the US. That reason is $$$$$$$$$$$$. With S&P being NA media "darlings" and B&S being the usual Russian evil, Rogge did what he did. With <span style="text-decoration:underline">allegations</span> of a judge cheating, he quickly awarded the duplicate gold medals to the Canadians to keep face with the NA audience.

    So, IMO, the gold medals were awarded because of the intense pressure by the US Media because of the horrendous commentating by Sandra and Scott, the fact that S&P were NA, and their whining and "tears" didn't help either. Rogge made a rushed decision for the sake of $$$$$$$.

    TV

  12. #12
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    Re: Pair controversy


    <blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>A judge confessed to cheating!!!!!!!! [/quote]

    Well, all I know she confessed was under pressure. From the NA judge/Referee and her own Federation. Under pressure didn't mean she judged wrongly. And, IMO, her mark is well in the range.

    <blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>So, IMO, the gold medals were awarded because of the intense pressure by the US Media because of the horrendous commentating by Sandra and Scott, the fact that S&P were NA, and their whining and "tears" didn't help either. Rogge made a rushed decision for the sake of $$$$$$$.[/quote]

    ITA.

  13. #13
    Sweet60
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    Re: Pair controversy


    S&P did deserve to win the 2001 worlds because if you look 8o at your tapes again, yes Jamie singled the axel but B&S weren't clean either! They nearly fell over on the twist. They skated with no flow either! S&P did deserve the gold due to the quality of their performance, as did the deserve the gold in SLC!:D

  14. #14
    Pookie
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    Re: Pair controversy


    <blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I could go on for 16 pages on why B&S should have been the sole gold medalists, or why the decision to grant two was a mistake, but to make stupid stuff up is just childish. [/quote]

    No thanks, I'm not interested. You've used the words stupid, childish and seriously delusional for offering my opinion. Why would I want to read 16 pages of it?

  15. #15
    MSI83
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    Re: Pair controversy


    I'm not going to start with the politics around the whole issue, but just want to mention S&P's flow over the ice was good but certainly not great IMO. B&S had much more intricate footwork, positions and exits in lifts, and held the landings to their jumps much longer. Elena also has better form and lines. I agree the results couldv'e gone either way both years. No need for Bezic and Hamilton's horrible biased commentary.

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