B&S vs S&P - revisit 2001 worlds and SLC pairs | Golden Skate

B&S vs S&P - revisit 2001 worlds and SLC pairs

mzheng

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 16, 2005
B&S vs S&P - revisit 2001 worlds and SLC pairs

It's off season and I just reviewed the 2001 worlds and SLC tape.

Which mistake is bigger in LP?
1) singled a double axel (Jammie at 2001 World)
2) a wonking landing of triple (Anton at SLC)

If S&P deserved their winning in 2001 world exclusively (single Gold Medal awarded). Then B&S deserved their winning in SLC exclusively!

What makes S&P think they should've win in SLC rightfully after their LP? May be they didn't say it out rightly but they sure behaved like they should've won. Especially Jammie. Andy that NBC commentator Scott and Sandra did a good job to stir the pot. They should've looked back at 2001 world to make thier outright cry.

Comparing the podium at 2001 worlds and SLC, B&S cong the S&P at 2001 worlds graciously and geniously; while Jammie cried all the way at SLC podium in first Medal ceremery.

I would say B&S behaved graciously both on and off the ice. They are the true champion at SLC.
 
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Joesitz

Guest
Re: B&S vs S&P - revisit 2001 worlds and SLC pairs

Here we go again! Let's keep it so that it is the opinion of the posters and not the law of the land.

Joe
 
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MSI83

Guest
Pair controversy

Well I thought the results were fine, becuase I was never a fan of S&P's Love Story. The choreography was much simplier and bland compard to B&S.
I thought it was unfair that Scott Hamilton immediately declared their win as wrong when in Lillehammer Oksana Baiul made at least *2* errors, yet he declared that contest "close".
 
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thvudragon

Guest
Re: Pair controversy

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Well I thought the results were fine, becuase I was never a fan of S&P's Love Story. The choreography was much simplier and bland compard to B&S.
I thought it was unfair that Scott Hamilton immediately declared their win as wrong when in Lillehammer Oksana Baiul made at least *2* errors, yet he declared that contest "close". [/quote]

You have to remember that Scott Hamilton is the worst FS commentator of all time. He's worse than the Turkish one who calls the elements wrong.

Now to the topic. In 2001 Worlds some of the judges admitted to not knowing that Jamie singled her axel. Ontop of that, the replay didn't work for S&P's program, so the judges had no way of checking to see if their elements were actually performed well. IMO, B&S won 2001, but that's just me.

Now SLC, Love Story was, in the words of Phil Hersch, HOOKUM! That isn't pairs skating. They had poor "unison". They had long sections of seperation. Their program was very simplistic. Now, if S&P did orchid, and it was perfect, the best they could skate, i could possibly see how S&P could win. Love Story is a very weak program compared to Orchid, or Tristan and Iseult.

Personally, I would have put B&S first in both instances. At 2001 Worlds, they were a little tentative, but they were clean and amazing to me. At SLC, there is no question, B&S. Meditation is much stronger program than the overly simplistic Love Story.

I think S&P made a big mistake in choosing to use Love Story for the Olympics. All the improvemetns they made since 1999 were thrown away when they made this decision.

TV
 
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nymkfan51

Guest
Re: Pair controversy

Well ... I thought S&P skated somewhat better that night ... even though I prefer the style and program of B&S.
I am in complete agreement though, about Scott's commentary. When, just before the 2nd throw jump of S&P, he said " they make this and the gold is their's " ... I thought he had lost his mind. It was way too close a call IMO to make that kind of statement. Then Sandra started with all the nonsense about being embarrassed for her sport. She and Scott were way over the top IMO. I think the competition was very close, so either couple winning would have been legitimate for me.
 

mzheng

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 16, 2005
The thing bothered me is Jammie ...

That she knew she made mistake the single axel in 2001 worlds (even judge did see the mistake) yet they won and Elena & Anton congrated them sinceerly without making any inproper comments. It was untill after SLC that their coach said something as 'last year (2001 worlds) we thought Elena&Anton should've won at Vencova but they didn't and we didn't complain. This is a subjective sport ....'

Why she acted as if they should've won with a perfectly skated program at SLC even Anton made a mistake less seriously than the one she made at 2001 world. (Note that I said perfect skated LP, by no means I say their program was constructed better than Russian's. I agree every thing TV has to say about the programs at 2001 worlds and SLC from two teams). And all NA media hypes. It is really unfair to Russian teams.

If Canadian could win 2001 with a flawed LP why Russian couldn't win SLC with a less flawed LP? You never know had Russian Fed or Referee put pressure on judge panel after the LP at 2001 worlds what would've turn up. It was so convienent that 2 judge didn't see Jammie singled axel and the computer replay for Canadian team was broken at the same time. I suppose under CoP there will be no such thing that judge didn't see the singled axel!

And I think Chinese team is greatly undermarked, especially by Canadian judge, at 2001 worlds. What big improvment they got from 2001 to 2003? 5.4 presentation in SP at 2001? And 6.0 PM LP at 2003? I(Don't get me wrong I do think they deserve 6.0 LP in 2003 worlds. But 5.4 2001 worlds? way too low) IMO Chinese's 2001's SP was better than 2003's. And they may not have the crisma as Russian and Canadian but presentation is not all about the crisma what about the speed, ice coverage? Through the years watching pairs on US TV, Peter is the only one consistantly gave Chineses team the credit where they deserved.
 
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Pookie

Guest
Re: Pair controversy

I think the double gold medals were one of the worst ideas they ever had. What are they going to do next time somebody whines? I think B&S were extremely gracious through the whole thing, also.
 

mzheng

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 16, 2005
Re: Pair controversy

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I think the double gold medals were one of the worst ideas they ever had. What are they going to do next time somebody whines?[/quote]

Pookie, ITA. The good sportmanship is to follow judge's decision.
 
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berthes ghost

Guest
Re: Pair controversy

"What are they going to do next time somebody whines?'

If you think that they gave double gold because of whinning, you are seriously delusional.

1. A judge confessed to cheating!!!!!!!! Does no one remember this? She confessed to cheating, they had no choice but to throw her vote out.
2. That left 4 against 4. A perfect tie.

I could go on for 16 pages on why B&S should have been the sole gold medalists, or why the decision to grant two was a mistake, but to make stupid stuff up is just childish.
 
J

Joesitz

Guest
Re: Pair controversy

Ladies, please, Whining is part of the game in figue skating. check out the IS interview. She is still whining over the SLC.

Joe
 
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thvudragon

Guest
Re: Pair controversy

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>If you think that they gave double gold because of whinning, you are seriously delusional.

1. A judge confessed to cheating!!!!!!!! Does no one remember this? She confessed to cheating, they had no choice but to throw her vote out.
2. That left 4 against 4. A perfect tie. [/quote]

Hmmm........ lets see who she confessed to.... people like Stapleford who has her own agenda. Her and Pfenning are just as unfit to judge as Le Gougne. Stapleford has been known to tell judges in review meetings who she thinks is the "better" skater, I'm sure this is in no way "influencing" other judges. And Pfenning, before the Pairs SP in SLC, he told the judges not to give anything higher than a 5.8 to B&S because of their early draw.

Since Le Gougne has not publicy said she has cheated and has since denied any wrongdoing, we have no other recourse but to believe her. She claims Stapleford confronted her after the Pairs LP and forced her to admit to cheating, which i see as perfectly concievable.

Then we have the person who awarded the duplicate gold, Rogge. Now, he has much reason to keep the integrity of figure skating in the US. That reason is $$$$$$$$$$$$. With S&P being NA media "darlings" and B&S being the usual Russian evil, Rogge did what he did. With <span style="text-decoration:underline">allegations</span> of a judge cheating, he quickly awarded the duplicate gold medals to the Canadians to keep face with the NA audience.

So, IMO, the gold medals were awarded because of the intense pressure by the US Media because of the horrendous commentating by Sandra and Scott, the fact that S&P were NA, and their whining and "tears" didn't help either. Rogge made a rushed decision for the sake of $$$$$$$.

TV
 

mzheng

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 16, 2005
Re: Pair controversy

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>A judge confessed to cheating!!!!!!!! [/quote]

Well, all I know she confessed was under pressure. From the NA judge/Referee and her own Federation. Under pressure didn't mean she judged wrongly. And, IMO, her mark is well in the range.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>So, IMO, the gold medals were awarded because of the intense pressure by the US Media because of the horrendous commentating by Sandra and Scott, the fact that S&P were NA, and their whining and "tears" didn't help either. Rogge made a rushed decision for the sake of $$$$$$$.[/quote]

ITA.
 
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Sweet60

Guest
Re: Pair controversy

S&P did deserve to win the 2001 worlds because if you look 8o at your tapes again, yes Jamie singled the axel but B&S weren't clean either! They nearly fell over on the twist. They skated with no flow either! S&P did deserve the gold due to the quality of their performance, as did the deserve the gold in SLC!:D
 
P

Pookie

Guest
Re: Pair controversy

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I could go on for 16 pages on why B&S should have been the sole gold medalists, or why the decision to grant two was a mistake, but to make stupid stuff up is just childish. [/quote]

No thanks, I'm not interested. You've used the words stupid, childish and seriously delusional for offering my opinion. Why would I want to read 16 pages of it?
 
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MSI83

Guest
Re: Pair controversy

I'm not going to start with the politics around the whole issue, but just want to mention S&P's flow over the ice was good but certainly not great IMO. B&S had much more intricate footwork, positions and exits in lifts, and held the landings to their jumps much longer. Elena also has better form and lines. I agree the results couldv'e gone either way both years. No need for Bezic and Hamilton's horrible biased commentary.
 
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Skatefan33

Guest
Re: Pair controversy

Why does people has to come back on this subject over and over again??? I am not sure, but this subject has been discussed here many and many times, and over and over again, the same coments comes back. Two gold medals was awarded and some are on one side and some on the other, we will never know what would of happen, but one thing that we cannot oversee is that after disqualifying the french result, it was 4-4 and the referee had S&P in first?? so what do you make of this???
 
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fml99

Guest
In defense...

My initial gut reaction when I saw the competitions was that S&P should have won in SLC but B&S should have won the Worlds in 2001. In other words, I thought the results of both competitions were wrong. However, after recently watching both competitions again, I can see strong arguments for the other teams, and now I am not so sure. What this says to me is that:

a) judging is much more complex than we realize
b) S&P and B&S are both so good and offer such different strengths and weaknesses that perhaps it is a matter of taste in terms of picking between them
c) the debate between these two teams has been so overdone, that my head is spinning when it comes to looking at their programs

But anyway, my main point of this post is to dispute the comment that S&P were bad sports at the podium in SLC. If you recall, they did graciously smile and congratulate B&S at the podium. Sure, Jamie was in tears during the flag ceremony, but she's human and she's allowed to show her emotions. You must admit that they skated extremely well, and it's understandable that they thought that they won. Think of it this way - if you had trained as hard as these skaters do and come so close to winning but then lose by one vote, you'd shed some tears too. Seriously, cut them some slack.

Now, as for the media blitz, the investigations, the debates, etc. that followed the event, that's another story. But in terms of what happened that night, I think that S&P were good sports.
 
D

DORISPULASKI

Guest
Re: War and Pairs

Wasn't this called War and Pairs last time?

What would be worth doing again is to have a proponent of each position go through each move and honestly list what it was and what it's quality was compared to the opposite competitor.

I have to go and rewatch it, but what I remember from live show last year is that B&S's program had not only the mistake on the axel, but they were not showing their normal flow on both throw jumps and the triple twist. (there was slight thumping, scratching, hanging on to edges by Elena) BUT that is compared to B&S's high standard. What needs to be compared is not B&S to B&S but B&S, element by element to S&P. You can't make B&S a victim of their own high standard of their superb Lady Caliph SP which NO ONE claims S&P should have won.

I gotta watch it again before I could do this properly, and I'm hoping that someone more qualified will give it a shot.

But as to believing Le Gougne, which of the 7 or so stories she told should we believe?

What I would have loved would be given that a judge admitted cheating, skate the darn thing over on a sudden death playoff (S&P skate against B&S) and any other placings that went 4/4 without LeGougne's vote should also skate off.
This is impractical, but what great theater it could have been.
LeGougne to be replaced by the subsitute judge.

dpp
 
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berthes ghost

Guest
Re: War and Pairs

2 questions:

1. A while back in one of the 1,000 or so threads rehashing this topic for the billionth time, people in the know made comments about the precentage of suspects who admit to crimes they didn't commit under police interigation. Does anyone know what comparative percentage of suspects who admit to their crimes under intensive questioning, and then later when all is calm and they have been actually charged and have met with a lawyer, suddenly they claim to be innocent?

Putting myself in her shoes, if Sally cornered me and started yelling lies, I'd tell her to take a flying leap and walk away, not burst into tears and admit to all her wild accusations. Unless of corse they were true.

2. Who knows that it was Rugge's decision to give 2 medals? All of the press I read at the time said that Rogge sternly ordered Speedy to clean up the mess. It was Speedy remedy to give duplicate medals. When did Rogge suddenly get credit for that brainstorm? I must have missed that article.

Either way, Marie-Looney was found guilty by her own governing body, but I'm sure that you guys have a suitable explantion on why that's all part of the vast conspiracy theory all started by two opinionated TV commentators.
 
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thvudragon

Guest
Re: War and Pairs

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>2. Who knows that it was Rugge's decision to give 2 medals? All of the press I read at the time said that Rogge sternly ordered Speedy to clean up the mess. It was Speedy remedy to give duplicate medals. When did Rogge suddenly get credit for that brainstorm? I must have missed that article. [/quote]

Actually, Cinquanta has said two things on this issue. First, he said "I don't know what to do", then after the gold medals were said to be given to S&P, he said "We simply asked the IOC to give two gold medals". In the end though, it was in the IOC's hands, Rogge.

On Sally cornering Le Gougne, intimidation. Stapleford and Le Gougne's lives are in the ISU (not literally, but in a life's work sense). I'm sure Stapleford could easily use her position to sway Le Gougne.

To me, Stapleford and Pfenning are almost as bad as Jean Senft. They try to appear noble in their actions when it is obvious they have their own agendas.

TV
 
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