B&S vs S&P - revisit 2001 worlds and SLC pairs

Re: dead horse

I think it's interesting that the Euro-centrics from another forum have climbed up on their anti-NA soapbox to deliver for the 900th time their enlightening sermon, "Why the Russians can't win in the US."

If you can't discuss this topic without using it as an opportunity to snark at NA skaters, audiences, and style, please hold off on posting until you can do so.

GS is known for its mutual respect of different styles and cultures, and has a great symbiotic relationship with the various fanbases to which its members belong. I don't know how many people I may be speaking for, but I am personally getting sick of hearing about how boorish, unrefined, uncultured, and uneducated we terrible NAs are simply because we don't necessarily place ALL our appreciation and value on intellectual, classical, and "pure" art. Neither group is entitled to behave with a smug, smarmy, superior attitude, however, if you insist on doing so, it might be better if it were taken to a forum where this is welcomed. I bleive there's a thread over there where you can snark to your heart's content.

Admins: Maybe it's time to send this dead horse to the glue factory?

Re: dead horse

Sk8cynic - You are right! This thread isn't even about skating. It is about regional fans.

I'll check with the other moderators to dump this. (but it does get supressed anger for some posters, and maybe that is good.)

Joe

Re: dead horse

Mucho thanks, Joe

I realize we're in the heart of the off-season, but that doesn't justify using skating discussions as a venting outlet for personal agendas. Surely there has got to be a fresh, new topic out there somewhere that we can discuss.

Re: dead horse

I'm discussing this because I'm relatively new here and I've never gotten to discuss it before.

I understand your need to put a stop to ugly posting, but please let a deletion be performed for <em>that</em> reason, <em>not</em> personal preference.

It upsets me when a person enters a thread solely to gripe to others about the topic. I feel insulted whenever that happens, because it's basically a contemptuous judgment on other people's desires to speak about a given subject freely. I've never barged into a thread and told the other people to knock it off because <em><strong>I</strong></em> didn't like the topic. If it's a topic I don't like, I don't go there. It really is that simple.

This thread has been a source of knowledge for me, and I'm getting new information and insight from the people who aren't being ugly. Should those of us who are receiving good things from this thread lose that simply because of others?

Re: dead horse

And thanks to rgirl and others for answering my question. I think I understand now why people say B&S should have won. I'm not sure if I agree with it or not. Perhaps I should go watch the Olympics again. That would be a shame; having to rewatch some figure skating.

Re: dead horse

Spirit, if you will read back through this, I was involved in the discussion earler.

You are completely right about this topic thread being informative. I, too, have learned a lot, but I dislike that this thread was being turned into a regional style/wuz-robbed war (which was actually carried over from another forum).

I don't want the thread deleted, but rather locked to avoid more snarking instead of intelligent discussion.

Hope that clears things up.

Re: dead horse

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Right, enthusiasm and energy count for nothing, that must be why poor Oksana and Tara were denied gold medals over boring Nancy and Michelle.

Should is debateable, but I don't see how you can say they don't count. [/quote]

I meant that it doesn't "officially" count. But, as I said, many judges probably take this, and the "crowd" factor into account, it's up to them. Either way, I don't think it should.

On the evolution of this thread, yes, it has strayed from it's original topic thanks to me and others, sorry for that.

TV

Re: dead hors

Piel and others brought up the point that <em>Love Story</em> was well received because the audience could follow the story. E.g., the snowball fight was cute as anything, plus, people remembered it from the movie. (BTW, Sale and Pelletier's version was better than the movie, which, in turn, was better than the awful book.)

IIRC, in the beautiful intermesso <em>Meditation</em>, what Thais is meditating about is the question, shall I be a nun or a prostitute? (She went with nun.) Were Berezhnaya and Sikharulidze trying to act out this story, or were they just skating to the music?

Mathman

Re: dead hors

I think it's also a question of 'warm' versus 'cool' programs.

For example, in 1994 M&D clearly won the Liliehammer crowd over with their passionate Rach skate. G&G skated a terrific Moonlight Sonata program, that was quite elegant and beautiful, but had a somewhat 'cool' presentation. G&G are considered one of the great technical teams ever, and their skills were great. They were not clean, but IIRC the judges gave them a clear win in the free skate.

It's was kind of a similar situation in SLC.

I tend to react more emotionally to the 'warm' programs, but I think I can recognize the quality and skill in the skater regardless of what music they skate too.

P.S. I'm a big fan of all 4 teams. I think they each bring something unique and original to the table. G&G's 1994 SP is one of my all time fave SP's.

Re: dead horse

Spirit889 - Firstly, welcome to Golden Skate.

Now, the topic is about B&S v.S&P at the Olys in SLC. If you go to past edges you will see this topic has been hotly diputed sooo many times before. The same arguments pro and con for each of the Pairs Team arises. In my opinion, no one has offered any new insight into the 1-1/2 year controversy whereby one judge was cancelled out and the results of the competition was left in a 4-4 tie. That's it. But by all means if you have something further to offer, let us read it.

What is annoying to me and others in this thread is that some posters are dissing other posters from North America. Dissing or bashing other posters is tantamount to a crime in Golden Skate. It is just not allowed!

With this in mind... say what you want about the competition. Who knows? You may actually add something that hasn't already been said. Main thing is... do not bash another poster or group of posters.

Joesitz

Re: dead horse

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Spirit889 - Firstly, welcome to Golden Skate.[/quote]

Thanks.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>If you go to past edges you will see this topic has been hotly diputed sooo many times before.[/quote]

Past edges only go back about four weeks, and I don't see an archive anywhere.

Re:

To bleuchick,
<blockquote style="padding-left:0.5em; margin-left:0; margin-right:0; margin-top:0; margin-bottom:0; border-left:solid 2">It is one thing to say S&P should not have won because of their choreography and in-betweens(see the above GS members going at it) and another thing to say S&P should not have won because Jamie cried and because they *think* this and that.</blockquote>

I never said S&P should not have won because Jamie cried. Don't try to put word in my mouth. They lost first then she cried. You don't have to speek english to get facts right. The most you can deduct from my post is she is not good sport. It's good for you French as your native language at least French and English are both belong to latin. I don't have such luck.

To sk8tngcanuck,
<blockquote style="padding-left:0.5em; margin-left:0; margin-right:0; margin-top:0; margin-bottom:0; border-left:solid 2">I have read this thread in its entirety, and wasn't even going to waste the energy to respond, but you had to go and drag B/K into this mess and claim that the North American audience won them their medal. It is very apparent that you have a distinct dislike for all that is North American when it comes to dance and pairs, and I find it truly sad that you allow that to cloud what seems to be relatively good judgement as it pertains to skating. Each is allowed his/her opinion, but I fear that your negativity towards the North American audience/skaters/style will eventually rob you of the opportunity of truly feeling and experiencing a quality pairs or dance program. </blockquote>

Where in my post mension B/K? Where is the extrem claim of dislike NA style in my post? Please don't credit me for what I didn't say. If it make you happy I happened to like B/K's 2003 Free very much. And I falling to sleep when L/A skated. To tell you the truth Dance is my least favorate decipline in FS (even I start watch FS with Dance) I don't even really care who win. I'm not born European or NA. I don't have bias at either side. I just say what I see. That said I think B/K deserved their win this world.

Ans since you mensioned S/Z. I happened to think they are the most undermarked pairs untill this season.

This will be my last post in this thread. Hope it is not the last at GS....

Sincere Apologies

Mzheng,

My sincerest apologies.<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/embarassed.gif ALT=""> That last post was meant to address comments from thvudragon, not you. Sincerest apologies.

Canuck

Re: Sincere Apologies

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>My sincerest apologies. That last post was meant to address comments from thvudragon, not you. Sincerest apologies. [/quote]

I'm not sure you understood my post, I was giving examples how the American audience understands next to nothing about figure skating, L&A and B&K just happened to be the examples used. I don't like either team, so it's not a case of me putting down those who aren't my favorites.

TV

Re: hors deadoerves

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Were Berezhnaya and Sikharulidze trying to act out this story, or were they just skating to the music?[/quote] Mathman, I wasn't at practices with B&S and Moskvina, but looking at the choreography, I think they used "Meditation by Thais" as an abstract piece of music. They may have used images of meditation and decision-making, but from what I saw and what Moskvina talked about at the Olympics, pre-scandal, was that it was about the beauty of skating.

Verbalgirl (damn, I should have used that name:lol: ),
I think the concept of warm vs. cool programs is very important and one I have not seen discussed before. ITA that in '94 the crowd went with Mishkutenok/Dmitriev's "hot" and passionate Rach whereas the judges went with Gordeeva/Grinkov's "cool" and classical Moonlight Sonata. Again, this was a case where one team had a couple of mistakes (Sergei on his 2Axel and singling I think it was the 2toe at the end of their jump sequence). M/D gave an amazng performance without mistakes, but what you cannot see on TV is the differences in the core strength of the two teams. When G/G stroke around the rink at amazing speed, there is no sound. They are so centered over the blade you would hardly know they were skating. M/D were not in the kind of shape they wanted to be for those Olympics and they knew it. Natalia had had problems of various kinds that kept her from training at ther fullest and by the time she got everything together, the Olympics were coming up fast. IMO, had M/D been in the kind of shape they were in at the '92 Olympics, they might have beaten G/G. They had beaten G/G before, even at Worlds, so it was not out of the question. But M/D just were not there overall in terms of being in shape, though they did a great job of covering it with their passion. G/G were in perhaps the best shape they ever were as pairs skaters but ironically nerves played a factor. As I'm sure most here have seen, Katia has said that Sergei did not sleep the entire night before the LP because he was so nervous.

Anyway, back to the issue of warm and cool programs, I think it's hard even for judges who are supposed to look for technical things, not to be drawn into warm programs--and I'm not talking about "Love Story," I mean any warm program. I've wondered on occasion if at the '98 Olympics Yagudin had not gotten sick or if Todd had skated his program cleanly if they would have beaten Candeloro. Candeloro's technique could be described as "funky" but his "D'artagnian" program had both technical difficulty and it was very warm, to the point of having a slight sense of humor. If Todd or Alexei had performed programs that technically more difficult but "cool" I wonder if the warmth of Candeloro's program would have been enough for him to get the bronze? Of course we will never know, but I think it gives an example of how warmth in a program can help. OTOH, Kulik's "Rhapsody in Blue" was performed with a straight face but with gorgeous technique. Hard to remember that in '98 just one 4toe made the difference in winning the gold medal; although a few others landed quads, mostly the Chinese IIRC, the rest of their skating wasn't up to the top six men. IMO, '98 men's was a case where both warm and cool programs "won" in a way. Kulik was one of the favorites for the gold based on his jumping ability, but nobody expected Candeloro to be in the race for a medal, yet besides Ilia's shirt , I think people rememeber Philipe's program most out of the men's LP in '98.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Ok, let me get this straight.

People in the Checz Republic and the Ukrain are all familiar with ballet and classical music as well as the finer points of figure skating, so Joe Smo off the street could tell which overhead lift was more difficult.

People in Canada and the US only understand pulp novels and mainstream movies. Who cares about actual skating, just as long as teh program has a good boy meets girl theme to it.

Sorry, but I think that the only thing you hit the nail on the head with was 'Baywatch' being universally popular.[/quote] :rollin: Berthes Ghost: Well at least I got the "Baywatch" thing right:lol: Seriously, I guess in trying to be succinct I just sunk my point. Of course I would never think that people in Eastern European countries or Ukraine are all familiar with ballet and classical music as well as the finer points of figure skating, including which overhead lift was more difficult, and that North Americans only get pulp novels and mainstream movies, and that the skating should just have a good boy-meets-girl theme.

What I had hoped to get across was the idea that IMO had the '02 Winter Olympics been held in, say, Prague that the audience reaction to both "Love Story" and "Meditation" would have been different for cultural reasons, not because Eastern Europeans know more about anything, except of course Eastern European stuff. Because of their cultural and political background, the audience at the arena, which I'm assuming would have had more Europeans, Eastern Europeans, and Russians there relative to North Americans, might not have responded so exuberantly to "Love Story" because it's not part of their collective consciousness. With B&S again, just because of cultural differences, they might have gone more for the "cooler" program and also something that, at least to me, had an abstract sense of coming together and parting. My point was that people in different parts of the world respond differently to different styles. It had absolutely nothing to do with Czech audience member Joe Smo (ah, I think that would be Jozef Chmo ) knowing one whit more about figure skating than Brooklyn's Joe Shmo. It goes along with the idea that some people have that the Eastern European judges tend to favor Irina's programs to opera music, assuming she skates as well as Michelle technically, not because of anything political--although of course I know politics get into this stuff--but rather because the judges' cultural backgrounds cause them to prefer seeing skating to that kind of music, just as North American judges tend to prefer skating to other kinds of music. Once when some US pair team, I forget who, did an exhibition piece to music from Cirque du Soleil (Joe's favorite ), Dick Button said, "Some music is just right for skating and this isn't. Skating works with music like songs by Frank Sinatra and..." Dick listed several other pieces of music he liked. I remember wondering at the time if someone from Montreal or France would have the same response. Not whether the skating was good or bad, just whether the Cirque du Soleil music suited skating in general. So that was the point I tried and obviously failed to make. But hey, at least I got that we are all one when it comes to "Baywatch":smokin:

As for going over the '02 Olympic pairs stuff with B&S and S&P and saying the same things, I think it's okay because (a) there are a lot of new members, (b) people always tend to argue the same things about "art" or personal preferences, (c) I don't think any one person can state as a fact "Nothing new here has been said," and (d) sometimes you can read things again and again and then one time you read it again in a particular context or by a particular person and you say, "Hey, I never thought of it like that before." I have no problem with repetition since I figure those who are bored with the topic just don't have to read it. But the personal attacks, as Joe said, they are verboten at GS as well they should be. But at least for the time being, rather than locking the thread, I would vote for deletions if any post is that offensive with a stern warning, as was issued, about personal attacks, and give people another chance to continue the discussion. Of course if the attacks start again, then lock her up, but aside from a couple of tiffs, I didn't see anything worth a lock up. JMO.
Rgirl

Re: hors deadoerves

<Rgirl
Hard to remember that in '98 just one 4toe made the difference in winning the gold medal;

IMO, '98 men's was a case where both warm and cool programs "won" in a way. Kulik was one of the favorites for the gold based on his jumping ability, but nobody expected Candeloro to be in the race for a medal, yet besides Ilia's shirt , I think people rememeber Philipe's program most out of the men's LP in '98.>

I think that Ilia was one of the Olympics favourites most of all because of his presentation ability, and secondly because of the jumping. In GP Finals Dec. 1997 he won Elvis because of his presentation as the matters jumpingwise were about equal.

I feel sorry for Ilia if his great and courageous freeskate in Nagano is remembered only because of his shirt. In my opinion it was in the same class as that of Boitano in 1988... They both were the first to skate in the final group, and they both went all out. Anyway, Ilia was the first skater in the Olympics who jumped a quad in his winning programme. He did not win the competition because of the quad, I would say. As the matters were, he would have won it anyway. I think that Ilia can feel very proud of himself for having skated his very best eligible freeskate in the Olympics. The Centennial On Ice one is though very close... And it was really great to see him skating in Hallmark Pro, about four years later, his Olympic freeskate again (minus the quad and a combination).

Marjaana

Re: hors deadoerves

Jaana,
Oh, dear, I hope this isn't one of our "no agreement, no way" interactions First of all, I was trying to joke a little and lighten things up when I referred to people only remembering Ilia for his shirt. Ilia made a joke out of it when after the press bugged him about his costume all week he shut them all up by saying, with a smile, "The shirt won. That's it."

Of course I don't remember Ilia's beautiful, phenomenal skate to "Rhapsody in Blue" for his shirt and I'm sure 99% of skating fans remember Ilia for his skating too. But the truth is, I'm afraid, that for a lot of people who only watch skating once every four years at the Olymipics, they may indeed only remember Ilia for that "crazy costume" he wore. But them's the breaks.

And although I must reconsider somewhat and say that you're right that Ilia was probably favored his presentation, IMO he was favored about equally for presentation and jumps with the question mark being his consistency. Ilia always had and still has extraordinary presentation, among the two or three best in the world, but combined with a full jump layout in a program, jumps that were just sublime in their execution, I would reword that to say that Ilia was favored because he had everything, but the question was would he skate two clean programs.

But I do agree with 100% that the way Ilia skated his LP was among the best Olympic men's LPs ever skated. Brian Boitano's is the only other one I can remember being that good and Ilia was skating at a higher technical level. Interesting that they happened 10 years apart.

I guess I should know that if I mention Ilia, Jaana will be there to make sure I get things right--and I mean that in a nice way. I don't really have a single favorite skater, but if I did, Ilia would be it. The thing that I loved so much about his Hallmark performance of "Rhapsody in Blue" is that he was able to relax, smile, and really put a lot of expression into the program, which skaters usually can't do too much of at the Olympics, although Ilia did some.
Rgirl

Re: hors deadoerves

We are drifting away from the 02 Olys where there was a tie in Pairs.

The United States and Canada with histories of figure skating dating way back to the twenties and together have a collection of Olys medals second to none, the fans of whom are being attacked as being less than cultured. This is pure hogwash. As for Ballet and Opera, someone or some people haven't tried to get a ticket for such events in the US and Canada - not easy.

Ilia Kulic would make an excellent discussion in another thread.

Let's stop the bashing of posters and national groups and keep to the B&S v. S&P debate, if there is anything left to debate.

Joesitz

Re: B&S vs S&P - revisit 2001 worlds and SLC pairs

Spirit899:

One could argue endlessly here over this controversial topic and get nowhere. In the same token, I would argue that Brian Orser should have won the Gold at the Calgary (1988 Olympics) over Brian Boitano - after all Brian Orser only faltered slightly on one jump - but that would start another controversy here. The Boitano fans would be jumping on the band wagon.

For the record - Jamie and David deserved to win the gold medal - they had the skate of the night. The judges put them in a bad spot and ruined their moment. I know everyone here favors B&S, but on that particular night at that moment the "skating gods" smiled on Jamie and David. They delivered a better skated program. It was not their fault what the judges were doing behind the scenes and like I already stated they would have accepted the silver medal had not all the "hoopla" taken place. They are good sports. Why can't we be here at Golden Skate?


Ladskater

Re: B&S vs S&P - revisit 2001 worlds and SLC pairs

>Joesitz,
The United States and Canada with histories of figure skating dating way back to the twenties and together have a collection of Olys medals second to none, the fans of whom are being attacked as being less than cultured. This is pure hogwash.>

Since this thread is about pairs skating, I will only make comments on pairs skating (and ice dancing, as it was also mentioned). In the last 40 years USA & Canada have not had so many pairs or ice dance GOLDS either in Olympics or Worlds (just before that e.g. a Canadian pair won several Worlds and one Olympics though). USA has one and Canada three golds in pairs skating at Worlds (during last 40 years). I also think it was fair to take the last 40 years into inspection (and not earlier), because even with last 40 years I think the percentage of posters remembering that long back, is rather small?

In the whole history of Olympics pairs skating Canada has one gold medal and one shared gold medal, USA has none. Neither has any golds in Olympics ice dancing, Canada has one ice dance gold medal from 2003 Worlds.

During the last 40 years Russia has won:

Pairs skating / Olympics (since 1960)
gold 11 (= 11 last Olympics)
silver 7
bronze 1
Total for Russia 19 from 33 medals (more than a half)

Ice dance / Olympics (the discipline since 1976 in Olympics, altogether 8 Olympics)
gold 6
silver 5
bronze 2
Total 13 from 24 medals (more than a half)

Pairs / Worlds (altogether 41 Worlds 1963-2003)
gold 30
silver 23
bronze 13
Total 66 from 123 medals (again more than a half)

Ice dance / Worlds (results 2001 are lacking on Skatabase)
gold 25
silver 18
bronze 10

The number of Russian Gold medals is very impressing!

Oh, and sorry, just one more thing about Ilia Kulik. His last name is written with two "k"s.

Marjaana