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Thread: The 1 Loop Jump in a jump combo

  1. #46
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    I never liked the combination either. But Patrick Chan's 3lz-1loop-3S goes pretty well with the music in his Four Seasons program. You can check his performance at TEB this year. It is not an easy combination. I don't see any top ladies doing it except Elena Radionova and Polina.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    Although you land on the outside edge, you land on the other leg than the one you need to be for Lutz. So if you really, really wanted to add Lutz in combination (without extra steps/hops or turns between the jumps) it would be possible in theory, if you suddenly did the Lutz rotating the other direction than the previous jump. In reality I have never seen anyone doing it even with single jumps. Usually skaters rotate only in one direction. But it can't be impossible. Some skaters can spin in both directions, so why they couldn't learn jump in both directions if it was somehow appreciated with points?
    Here's someone trying it with single lutzes.

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  4. #49
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    Yup, it's jarring and not very pretty I can't think of how to make it look more graceful, but I have imagined a way to set up a salchow from another jump that would look much prettier (well, theoretically I don't skate, so I don't know for sure).

    What you do is, on the first jump, as you open up for the landing - be ready to turn again to face forwards, and use your free leg for a stag leap (or double stag, like Sasha's) with a half turn in the air. When you come down from the leap, you will be in position for a salchow. You can see what I mean in this tutorial vid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvsTawN1f2o Skip to 4:30). Basically that, but you land facing back the way you came instead of facing forward.

    One the ice it would go like this:

    • Keeping your landing leg bent, swing your free leg around and behind you with as much power as you can.
    • The trickiest part is that as you land, you have to keep your arms close to your body, so don't open them up all the way like a regular landing
    • Meanwhile, the shoulders and hips are facing and turning with the swing of the free leg as it leads you into the stag.
    • The free leg will reach the peak of its momentum as it swings past 90 degrees relative to your bent landing leg - that's when you're ready to jump.
    • With your torso and hips facing forward, kick your free leg up in front of you as high as you can, using your arms to thrust your body up, and push off with your landing leg at the same time.
    • Hit the double stag position with chest and head up, and arms in fifth.
    • While you're in the air, your body is making a half turn so you can land backwards for the next jump.
    • Reaching for the ice with your leading leg as you come down from the leap, make sure you keep your attitude leg behind you, and be ready to swing it around for momentum into the salchow.Your arms should be coming down from fifth to 2nd as well, for the landing.
    • Finally, land backwards, on the back outside edge of your leading foot, and bring your outstretched arms back in, swinging the back attitude leg around to the front for the salchow.


    In real time, it would be a very fast and fluid transition between the two jumps. Your landing blade from the first jump would be on the ice for only a split second, because you need to use the momentum from the swing of your free leg to launch immediately into the leap (so the knee action is like doing a releve in ballet http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dim7AaoQrC8 ). My feeling is that this would solve the problem of the jerkiness of a half loop, because there is no stopping between the two jumps - just one fluid transitional motion instead.

    To anyone who actually skates: Do you think it's possible?

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by I♥Yuna View Post
    [*]Finally, land backwards, on the back outside edge of your leading foot, and bring your outstretched arms back in, swinging the back attitude leg around to the front for the salchow.
    The whole point is, you have to land on a back inside edge in order to take off for a salchow. The only reason for putting an extra small jump between the first jump and the salchow is to get onto that back inside edge.

    What you do with the free leg and the arms in the air is optional. The important thing is to land on that back inside edge maintaining the curving flow from the landing of the first jump, with the weight optimally positioned over the blade, with the rotation "checked" in the upper body so you can then generate the new rotation for the salchow.

    If you can do all that with your legs in stag position and your arms overhead in the air, more power to you.

    There needs to be pretty much a full rotation in the air to get from back outside (first landing) to back inside (salchow takeoff). It's possible to cheat the rotation of the 1Lo so it's closer to half than full rotation, but it will be harder to get a triple salchow off the landing in that case.

    The example you show only has a half revolution in the air -- she lands on what would be the equivalent of a forward outside edge. It could be possible to rotate more in the air, but the open position in the air would make it that much harder to get more rotation. And the arm positions you suggest would also make it harder.

    So essentially what you're suggesting is to make the half loop look prettier in a way that would also make it much much harder.

    But if someone could do it, they'd deserve pluses in the GOEs.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    Although you land on the outside edge, you land on the other leg than the one you need to be for Lutz. So if you really, really wanted to add Lutz in combination (without extra steps/hops or turns between the jumps) it would be possible in theory, if you suddenly did the Lutz rotating the other direction than the previous jump. In reality I have never seen anyone doing it even with single jumps. Usually skaters rotate only in one direction. But it can't be impossible. Some skaters can spin in both directions, so why they couldn't learn jump in both directions if it was somehow appreciated with points?
    Rohene Ward does 2A 2A in opposite directions, as well as spinning both directions. It is in this audition vid

    http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=CC1-havgrIk

    He also used to do 2a one way and 3somethingorother the other way, but I can't find a vid of it.

  7. #52
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    ^I meant inside edge, of course lol. Sorry

    As for the half turn vs. full turn in the air, I realize on skates it would be a full turn. My mind was thinking of it from the perspective of the dance leap, where it would be a half-turn in the air, because it's determined by the direction you're hips are facing when you take off. On the floor, the hips travel forward into the leap, and when you land, the hips are facing back in the direction you came from = half turn . So that's the source of that confusion. Perhaps a better comparison is a barrel turn, but without the lean (full turn in the air, when done on the floor).

    It could be possible to rotate more in the air, but the open position in the air would make it that much harder to get more rotation. And the arm positions you suggest would also make it harder.
    I'll take your word for it that it's harder on the ice On the floor, you can try the stag with your arms in second and you'll see that it's harder to get the same height, but I see what you mean about generating new rotation for the salchow, so you'd have to bring the arms down past second as you land the leap. As for rotation, it might be easier on the ice if you turned with your upper body first (so letting your shoulders lead, with the hips following the curve into the air - at least, that's the only way to get up into it on the floor if your foot is planted in the other direction, duh. I should have tried that first! ). Anyway, it seems like that does give you enough rotation to complete the full turn so you can land on the BIE (hips and shoulders align again after you hit the stag, which puts you in position to land and go up again into the salchow).

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    Although you land on the outside edge, you land on the other leg than the one you need to be for Lutz. So if you really, really wanted to add Lutz in combination (without extra steps/hops or turns between the jumps) it would be possible in theory, if you suddenly did the Lutz rotating the other direction than the previous jump. In reality I have never seen anyone doing it even with single jumps. Usually skaters rotate only in one direction. But it can't be impossible. Some skaters can spin in both directions, so why they couldn't learn jump in both directions if it was somehow appreciated with points?
    ROHENE WARD is the short answer. He could jump triples in both directions (and I DID see him complete a combination with a CW 3Lz a few times for fun at practices and he jumped 2A in both direction consistently), however his CW rotating jumps were not the same quality as his CCW jumps and he was concerned about getting -GOEs. Anyone who passed ISI FS10 can do at least loops in their non-rotational direction and many can do single Axels.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    There needs to be pretty much a full rotation in the air to get from back outside (first landing) to back inside (salchow takeoff). It's possible to cheat the rotation of the 1Lo so it's closer to half than full rotation, but it will be harder to get a triple salchow off the landing in that case.
    In addition, if the loop actually only rotated a half a turn, skater would get 1Lo << or at least 1Lo < in the combination.

    If, in the example above, the skater turns on the ice after the landing of the first jump (or on this connector that was not well described), it is no longer a combination or sequence, but two jump boxes. This is why the first jump-falling leaf-toe loop is gone from the current day list of elements (Kwan had a 3Lo-falling leaf-2T in one of her programs early on which was gorgeous and counted as a sequence)

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by I♥Yuna View Post
    On the floor, you can try the stag with your arms in second and you'll see that it's harder to get the same height,
    Well, first position arms would work as well as fifth, or pulled in toward the chest as in multirevolution jumps.

    but I see what you mean about generating new rotation for the salchow, so you'd have to bring the arms down past second as you land the leap.
    It's not that the arms need to be lower than second position at shoulder level or slightly below -- but to set up the rotation of the second jump, CCW, the left shoulder would need to be forward and the right shoulder back before the jump, and then the shoulders would reverse when the free leg swings forward to initiate the salchow rotation.

    I.e., the arms in the air for the half loop could be anything that lets the skater rotate the half loop -- it's the stag position of the legs that would be more likely to slow down rotation too much -- but the arms on the landing of half loop need to be in position to allow the shoulders to check the half loop rotation and then initiate the salchow rotation. You're not going to get a triple salchow if you start with the shoulders square.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Violet View Post
    I never liked the combination either. But Patrick Chan's 3lz-1loop-3S goes pretty well with the music in his Four Seasons program. You can check his performance at TEB this year. It is not an easy combination. I don't see any top ladies doing it except Elena Radionova and Polina.
    Alaine Chartrand from Canada did this combination several times in competition http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FW50VrInRMM&t=0m53s

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by coolboogie22 View Post
    Alaine Chartrand from Canada did this combination several times in competition http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FW50VrInRMM&t=0m53s
    The problem with this half loop IMO, is that she lands the lutz and her free leg comes out to land the jump, it's is common on the landing of the first jump to hop into the half loop as your free leg is still in front of the landing leg, not after. In the case of Alaine I consider it looks more like a step over than a half loop, she is not using the momentum from the landing of the first jump to her advantage. In this case it tends to appear more like a mistake, she then she decides to hop over and do the salchow. I know it's not the case, but it can look like that to a casual viewer or no one with any skating experience.

  13. #58
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    Tech specialists use the half loop to penalize skaters (penalizes combo, not just the 1Lo) they do not like and look the other way when one looks questionable and is performed by a favorite or competitor from the homeland. Funny that all jumps are landed on the toe pic and the blade, but a tech caller will try and tell you you need to land on the inside edge fully rotated to get credit which is not how the skill is performed, almost as funny as when isu want twist lift to be performed on outside edge OF THE MAN!!) The technique performed by A.Ripon and J.Brown do look accidental to the untrained eye. And a half loop (called loop because it is one full rotation) is not the only way to get to sal or flip in combo. 1A, 2A,2T, 2Lo, are other ways, landed on left foot, triples would be tough to check enough to perform last jump, but could be done. Does anyone see these jumps landed on the other foot listed in the Scale of Values? Nobody will attempt because of regimentation by people who do not know the history of /or skating well enough, so we will continue to watch the same thing over and over. We have a few John Currys skating right now and they could bring figure skating to great heights, but until things change there effort and our collective opportunity is being wasted.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by oo7 View Post
    1A, 2A,2T, 2Lo, are other ways, landed on left foot, triples would be tough to check enough to perform last jump, but could be done. Does anyone see these jumps landed on the other foot listed in the Scale of Values?
    Any of these jumps landed on the back inside edge of the other foot would get the same base value as a jump with the same takeoff and same number of rotations landed the normal way. So there's no need for a separate listing in the Scale of Values -- the values that are already there still apply.



    From the technical panel handbook, under "Landing on another foot":

    In combinations/sequences all jumps except the last one may be landed on either foot.
    The last jump of a combination/sequence as well as any solo jump must be landed on backward outside edge.
    The call of the jump does not depend on the landing foot and the Judges will evaluate the quality in their GOE.

    This doesn't take into account the fact that it's much harder to control a landing on the back inside edge, even harder to make them look good than it is to make a half-loop look good. So these kinds of jump combinations would not likely earn positive GOE, and therefore it's not really in the best interest of skaters to try them. But it is certainly allowed.

    Should the SoV be expanded, or a general rule added, to give a bonus to the base mark of jumps landed on the back inside edge of the other foot, to compensate for the added difficulty and likely lower quality/GOE?

    Or should a bonus be given to the last jump in a combination, whatever it is, which would make it more valuable to do a single or double jump with BI edge landing into triple flip or salchow than to put a double toe or double loop on the end of a triple?

  15. #60
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    My apologies for not staying current on technical panel handbook postings. I am going back to my cave now... I very much like your idea gkelly of rewarding the last jump. That is the thinking that will move the sport forward and why IMO, why IJS is workable.

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