DIY: Judging

DIY: Judging the Ladies in Sochi

Hi everyone,

I decided to score the top ladies free skates from Sochi myself, taking inspiration from our very own Ziggy (who I don't think I saw do this, or anyone else for that matter...if I missed it, let me know & feel free to merge!).

Short Program

Kostner

3F+3T +2
3Lo +2
FCSp4 +1
LSp3 +1
2A +1
StSq4 +3 the judges got it wrong here; I'm not fully trained on the various brackets, counters, rockers, etc. but this was certainly more complex than Sotnikova's. +3 for all of the lovely moments, particularly that back spiral
CCoSp4 +1

Skating Skills 9.25
Transitions/Linking Footwork 8.5
Performance/Execution 9.0
Choreography/Composition 9.25
Interpretation 9.5

38.23 + 36.4 = 74.63

Kim

3Lz+3T +2 lovely
3F +2 fluid steps leading in, raised free leg on landing
FCSp4 +1 good centering, positions a little strained
2A +2 love the outside-inside spread eagle
LSp3 +1 centering and speed fairly good
StSq3 +2 Kim admits to making a mistake here so the level 3 was correct; regardless, this was one of my favorite step sequences Kim has ever done; the part where she clasps her hands behind her back and skates like a little girl fills me with a happy nostalgia
CCoSp4 +1

Skating Skills 9.25
Transitions/Linking Footwork 8.25
Performance/Execution 9.0
Choreography/Composition 9.0
Interpretation 9.5 (one of my favorite performances of the entire Olympics, can you tell?)

37.93 + 36 = 73.93

Gold

3Lz+3T +1 slight struggle on the landing of the lutz but regains control with the toe
LSp4 +3 one of the best in the competition
FCSp4 +2 not the prettiest catchfoot, but great speed and centering, balanced rotations and control even with the deep inside edge that she gets
3Lo +1
2A -1 scratchy landing
StSq3 +2 lots of full-body commitment
CCoSp4 +2

Skating Skills: 8.25
Transitions/Linking Footwork: 7.75
Performance/Execution: 8.25
Choreography/Composition: 8.5
Interpretation: 8.0

37.44+ 32.6 = 70.04

Sotnikova

3T+3T +2
3F +1
CCoSp4 +2
2A +1
LSp4 +2
StSq3 +1
FCSp4 +2

Skating Skills 8.25
Transitions/Linking Footwork 8.00
Performance/Execution 8.25
Choreography/Composition 8.5 certainly preferable to her LP
Interpretation 8.25

36.13 + 33.0 = 69.13

Asada

3A< -3
3F +1 the flip looked rotated on replay, I gave it to her (I actually thought it was a strong landing, similar to how she's been landing it in the SP all season)
CCoSp3 +2
FCSp4 +1
2Lo+COMBO -3
StSq4 +2 once again, I deviated from the official levels
LSp4 +2

Skating Skills 9.25
Transitions/Linking Footwork 8.75
Performance/Execution 8.0 normally it would be higher, but I felt she deflated and lost her conviction after the jump errors
Choreography/Composition 9.25
Interpretation 9.0

26.78 + 35.4 -1 = 61.18

Long Program

Asada

3A +1 big and airy, landed right on the low vibration of piano keys
3F+3Lo +1 it looked fully rotated, nice delay on the 3Lo
3Lz (e) -1 steps in, flutz, but a nice exit position (-2, +1)
CCoSp4 +2 exceptional centering, great positions
FCSp4 0 transition to catchfoot a little shaky
2A+3T +1 fully rotated
3S +1 love how the entry & the jump itself go so perfectly with the swell of the music, along with the little hop as a transition out of it
3F+2Lo+2Lo +2 not only is it effortless throughout and has a delay in the rotation of the loops, but it perfectly matches the three consecutive swells of the music
3Lo +1
FCCoSp4 +1 could be faster, struggled a little on the illusions, good stretch in the Biellmann position and good centering
StSq4 +3 best step sequence of the night, skated with every beat of music
ChSq1 +2

Skating Skills - 9.0 excellent from the ankle down, but I find Asada to be one of the slower skaters - otherwise I would have gone up to 9.5
Transitions/Linking Footwork - 8.75 in the entire program, she never takes more than 3 back crossovers in a row; lots of transitions that are both difficult and musical
Performance/Execution - 9.0 she skated with such command and conviction (the moment after she lands her final 3Lo always gets me)
Choreography/Composition - 8.75 not as good as her short, and not as many layers to interpret, but still beautifully done to the music
Interpretation 9.0 - a sophisticated and triumphant interpretation of music; can't think of any other lady who would be able to skate this program, apart from maybe Carolina or Michelle

78.66 + 71.2 = 149.86

Kostner

3Lz +1 gorgeous jump but telegraphed
2A+3T +2
3F +2 extremely light
FCCoSp4 +1
FCSp4 +1 Kostner isn't the most flexible or fast spinner, but the positions she hits are aesthetically pleasing; could have held the camel for a few more rotations
3Lo 0 heavy landing
3T+2T 0 unstable on the landing edge of the 3T, dropped upper body
3S +1 good speed, nice height
3S+2T+2T 0 struggled on the last 2T
StSq4 +3 amazing moment, no restraint with every movement done to its fullest, made even more powerful by her long limbs
ChSq1 +3
CCoSp4 +1 slight travel

Skating Skills 9.5 best in the ladies field, great edges and speed
Transitions/Linking Footwork 7.75 lots of telegraphing, and she sacrificed intricacy for artistic integrity, which I'm fine with - I rewarded her in the other components
Performance/Execution 9.5 she sells this SO well
Choreography/Composition 9.0 I would have gone higher but I'm disappointed she replaced the final 3S with a spin (I know, I know, she never landed it cleanly, but it would've been cool to see)
Interpretation 9.25 amazing

68.35 + 72.0 = 140.35

Kim

3Lz+3T +3 the apex of ladies' jumping
3F +2
3S+2T +2 good flow and rhythm throughout the combination
FCCoSp4 +1 excellent centering but her positions and speed are nothing extraordinary
StSq3 +2 beautifully timed to the music, hitting nearly every nuance
3Lz 0 free leg was a little swingy, not secure
2A+2T+2Lo +1 strained between the 2T and 2Lo
3S +1 slightly tilted in the air and landing
LSp3 0 a little slow
ChSq1 +1 okay, but not great - the spiral position isn't nice to look at and yet somehow manages to be unsatisfyingly short at the same time, no relation to the music; however, the steps afterward are full of energy and commitment
2A +1
CCoSp4 +1 went well with the music, but you could see how fatigued she was during the camel positions

Skating Skills 9.25 watching the video from an aerial point of view - her speed, deep edges, and ice coverage are fantastic
Transitions/Linking Footwork 7.75 lacking; she tends to sacrifice intricacy to maintain her amazing speed and power, absolutely her weakest component; does the greatest number of crossovers of all the top 4 free skates and the only notable transition I remember was the ina bauer into the 2A+2T+2Lo
Performance/Execution 8.5 I got the impression that she was somewhat marking the movements as opposed to fully performing them; she did become more engaged later in her program once her jumps were landed and expressed more facially, but the beginning was tense
Choreography/Composition 9.0 although more simplistic than Mao and Carolina's programs, I also felt it was actually more sophisticated as well
Interpretation 9.0 Kim carries herself with a regal sophistication and very well portrays the overall mood and tension of Adios Nonino; extremely well-timed to the music

66.79 + 69.6 = 136.39 - I was SHOCKED by how low I scored her - I'm a big Yuna fan, so I thought I'd have her well into the 140s.

Sotnikova

3Lz+3T< (e) -2 I disagreed with caller and gave her both an underrotation and an edge call, which I thought were fairly obvious in the replays; otherwise, great height (-3, +1)
3F +2 footwork preceding, great elevation
3Lo +2
FCSp4 +2 not really pleasing to me personally but I can't deny the amount of flexibility those positions take; fast and centered
2A+3T +2 good control but...is it just me, or does she have a wild free leg picking into the 3T?
3F+2T+2Lo -2 the judges were WAY too lenient on this stumble
3S +2 right on the music
2A +2 good control
LSp4 +2 slowed down a bit in the Biellmann position; lovely, but she's no Czisny
StSq3 +1 I disagreed with the callers once again - her step sequence has been receiving Level 3 all season long, including at Europeans which was only a month prior and is notorious for being one of the more generously scored competitions of the season; the upper body movement as she was finishing the sequence seemed contrived
ChSq1 +2 I found the waving disingenuous and juvenile but I can't deny that gorgeous extension; a little unstable in her second spiral position
CCoSp4 +2

Skating Skills 8.25 excellent for her age; she is nearing Kim's stratosphere but is not there yet
Transitions/Linking Footwork 8.25 nothing particularly memorable or choreographically interesting
Performance/Execution 9.25 she performed the heck out of this program, good for her
Choreography/Composition 8.25 it disturbs me that this was a program that she had won Junior Worlds with...as previous threads mentioned, there was no underlying theme or triumphant, thought-provoking moments; it was simply movement for movement's sake
Interpretation 8.0

68.53 + 67.2 = 135.73

Gold

3Lz+3T +1
2A+3T +2
3Lo +2
FCoSp4 +2
StSq3 +2
3F e -3
3Lz +1 nice entrance from the back spiral
3S+2T+2T +0
CCoSp4 +2
ChSq1 +1
2A +2
LSp4 +3

Skating Skills: 8.5
Transitions/Linking Footwork: 8.0
Performance/Execution: 8.5
Choreography/Composition: 8.0
Interpretation: 8.25 the powerful music suits her style of skating more than the delicacy of the short, but still not my cup of tea

68.94 + 66.0 - 1 = 133.94

GOLD Kostner 74.63 (1st) + 140.35 (2nd) = 214.98
SILVER Asada 61.18 + 149.86 (1st) = 211.04 (what?! I have to look over my calculations again...)
BRONZE Kim 73.93 (2nd) + 136.39 (3rd) = 210.32
Fourth Sotnikova 69.13 (4th) + 135.73 (4th) = 204.86
Fifth Gold 70.04 (3rd) + 133.94 (5th) = 203.98

Not totally surprised, a couple of your results reflect my own reactions to the programs as they played out during the competition.

Not surprised about Carolina for the gold because I thought she'd been short-shrifted on both her FS scores (and had won the SP, if only by a point or so). So I was thinking if her FS scores were put where they should have been, and she'd gained a point in the SP, it was possible that she and not Yuna might have been the one to eke out a win over Sotnikova.

Also not entirely surprised you would score Yuna low (for Yuna). As I was watching her FS, I became increasingly concerned she didn't have enough scorable content to compete with Sotnikova's packed, backloaded program. At that point we knew Sotnikova had passed Carolina in the standings and like pretty much everyone else, I always want the better skater to win. Between Sotnikova and Yuna, Yuna is obviously the better skater so I was pulling for her. Anyway, I'm watching and watching, and by the end of the first two minutes thinking maybe she backloaded her program. But she hadn't, so by the time she was finished I wasn't even conflicted that she hadn't done enough for the gold--I was convinced she hadn't. Wasn't surprised at all that it came out in Sotnikova's favor.

Later that night when I watched the highlighted coverage and heard Sandra Bezic's immediate reaction (how stunning the program, etc.) I thought, wow, I have to watch that again, because I hadn't picked up on the "stunning". I thought Yuna looked a little tired at the end. So I did, and the second time I DID see how beautiful it had been (and no longer thought she looked tired at the end). I realized the reason I didn't notice it the first time was that I had been watching too closely for content. Not only that, but the artistry was subtle, understated, making it possible to overlook it while focusing so intently on the technical side of the skate. It made me wonder if the judges had missed it, too, for similar reasons. Judges don't have the luxury of sitting back and letting the aesthetics of a program wash over them.

AC96 said:

Out of just these 4 skaters, it seems that my final order is:
GOLD Kostner 215.18
SILVER Asada 210.44 (what?! I have to look over my calculations again...don't know how this could be true)
BRONZE Kim 208.32
Fourth Sotnikova 203.26

Click to expand...

I like you

In all seriousness, I tried judging programs myself sometimes too, and I happen to look at my results and feel like 'What the hell did I just do? ' sometimes. I like this system overall, but in some cases it really differs from what my gut feeling tells me, and it falls victim to the 'the whole is more than the sum of its parts'-logic I guess (Yunas program fell prey to this, IMO).

As of now, I didn't get to score the SPs (mainly because of a lack of videos ), but my LP scores aren't that far from yours, although I do have Adelina barely in front of Yuna (both at around 136). From what I remember from the SPs though, I'm pretty confident I'd join you on the 'Caro for gold'-bandwagon

I went back and scored the event myself this weekend. I may put it into a blog post but I don't think people would be happy with my results...


1. Carolina = 220+
2. Yu-Na = 215+
3. Adelina = 213+
4. Mao = 209+
5. Gracie = 203+
6. Ashley = 200+
7. Julia = 198+


I had Carolina 1st with a total around 220+. She won the PCS in both segments for me with 10s for PE, CH and IN in the SP and 10s in CH and IN in the FS. She placed 1st in the SP with 74+, 2nd in the FS with 147+. Yu-Na edged Carolina in the technical mark but the strength and delivery of Carolina's programs gave her the upper-hand in the PCS. They were evenly matched in TR but I gave Carolina the edge in SS, PE, CH and IN. I thought both of her programs and performances were stronger than Yu-Na's.

Yu-Na was 2nd with a total of about 215+. She actually came in 3rd in both segments but she had the 2nd highest PCS behind Carolina in both segments. I gave her 9.75s in PE and IN and a 9.50 for CH to Carolina's 10s (sorry but Ave Maria & Bolero beats out Clowns & Adios IMO). About 73+ in the SP and 142+ in the FS. I actually thought Yu-Na's scores were pretty fair in Sochi; it was how others were scored in relation to her that I had a problem with. I do think her 2nd place finish was fair...I just didn't think she deserved to be 2nd to Adelina.

Adelina was 3rd (as I suspected). I think I had her 2nd in the SP (73+ edging Yu-Na by less than a point) and 4th in the FS (140+). Her PCS were 33+ in the SP and around 68+ in the FS rather than the 35+ and 74+ she received. She scored higher in TR than both Carolina and Yu-Na (8.50 to their 8.25...she has much more TRs than either of them) but their SS, CH, PE and IN were higher. The scores came out kind of close. Yu-Na beat Adelina out by about 1.5 points...I was surprised. But the truth of the matter is Adelina was excellent at that competition and she gave it her all. I even added an element of inflation to my scores for argument's sake. In the end bronze would have been a very fair reward for her...Gold was not fair.

Mao ended up 4th. I think she was underscored in both programs. Though her TES was very low in the SP, I had her SS, TR, CH and IN higher than what she got. I gave her a 7.75 for PE (it was an error-filled program) but I think they were too harsh on her in other areas. In my results she placed 9th in the SP. She won the FS with a 150+. I think the judges always skimp on Mao's PCS in relation to everyone else; I had her a narrow 3rd in PCS, but she had the highest TES of the segment (around 77+ I think). I didn't adjust the base values (though I believe Mao didn't get the benefit of the doubt on her 3-3 or 2-3 like others did) but I did give +GOE b/c every jump looked clean to me. Her FS score pulled her up to 4th.

Gracie was 5th with a very similar score to the one she actually received (68+ in the SP, 135+ in the FS). I thought her scores were a bit inflated but apparently the judges were pretty fair there...

Ashley was 6th. I think the judges skimped on her PE, CH and IN marks in PCS. She really sold the crap outta those programs even though the judges didn't seem that interested in buying. Her TES was the lowest (the only of top 7 w/o a clean 3-3 or 2-3 (or 3A) in either program) but other than TR and SS, she outscored Gracie and Julia in PCS in both segments. I think her final score was around 200+.

Julia came in 7th. Her score in the SP was about the same (65+) but she was a hair below Ashley. Her FS score was lower (around 131+ I think). I added in a touch of inflation for her too but the fact of the matter is Julia was the only person to fall in both programs. Her high +GOE on her spins helped her to make up some ground but what she turned in didn't deserve to clear 200 points.


So that's what I came up with. Carolina with gold, Yu-Na with silver, Adelina with bronze and Mao just off of the podium in 4th.

AC96 said:

Thanks for your reply KJGL; I was beginning to get self-conscious that nobody had looked at/responded to my first thread, before I realized I'd posted it at 4 in the morning!

I also worked pretty hastily to get the short programs scored before I went to bed, so it won't be as thorough or coherent (and likely riddled with mathematical errors because I didn't have access to a calculator so I had to do mental math), but here goes nothing:

Kostner

3F+3T +2
3Lo +2
FCSp4 +1
LSp3 +1
2A +1
StSq4 +3 I think the judges got it wrong here; I'm not fully trained on the various brackets, counters, rockers, etc. and the criteria for judging a step sequence, but this was certainly far more complex than Sotnikova's. +3 for all of the lovely moments, particularly that back spiral
CCoSp4 +1

Skating Skills 9.25
Transitions/Linking Footwork 8.5
Performance/Execution 9
Choreography/Composition 9.25
Interpretation 9.5

38.03 + 36.4 = 74.43

Kim

3Lz+3T +2 lovely
3F +1
FCSp4 +1
2A +1
LSp3 0
StSq3 +2 I'm tempted to give her a Level 4 here, but as I've said, I don't feel comfortable in my knowledge of step sequences to alter Kim's (whereas Kostner has been reigning queen of steps for the past quad)...regardless, this was one of my favorite step sequences Kim has ever done; the part where she clasps her hands behind her back and skates like a little girl fills me with a happy nostalgia
CCoSp4 +1

Skating Skills 9.25
Transitions/Linking Footwork 8.25
Performance/Execution 9.0
Choreography/Composition 9.0
Interpretation 9.5 (this was one of my favorite performances of the entire Olympics, can you tell?)

36.03 + 36 = 72.03

Sotnikova

3T+3T +2
3F +1
CCoSp4 +2
2A +1
LSp4 +2
StSq3 +1
FCSp4 +2

Skating Skills 8.5
Transitions/Linking Footwork 8.00
Performance/Execution 8.25
Choreography/Composition 8.75 certainly preferable to her LP
Interpretation 8.0
(I fear that I may have taken on the terrible quality of judging PCS in a corridor...)

35.93 + 33.2 = 69.13

Asada

3A< -3
3F +1 the flip looked rotated on replay, I gave it to her (I actually thought it was a strong landing, similar to how she's been landing it in the SP all season - am I blind or misguided?)
CCoSp3 +2
FCSp4 +1
2Lo+COMBO -3
StSq4 +2 once again, I deviated from the official levels
LSp4 +2

Skating Skills 9.25
Transitions/Linking Footwork 9.0
Performance/Execution 8.0 normally it would be higher, but I felt she deflated and lost her conviction after the jump errors
Choreography/Composition 9.25
Interpretation 9.0

26.78 + 35.6 -1 = 61.38

Out of just these 4 skaters, it seems that my final order is:
GOLD Kostner 215.18
SILVER Asada 210.44 (what?! I have to look over my calculations again...don't know how this could be true)
BRONZE Kim 208.32
Fourth Sotnikova 203.26

So, in conclusion, I would make a terrible ISU judge and mess up all of the rankings for everything, apparently. Huh. Thanks for indulging me to everybody who read this.

Click to expand...

Interesting. While I do find a plausible case for gold for Carolina, I think, from memory, you have scored Mao's short program too high (and maybe Yuna's a little too low). Unfortunately, the videos are not available on YouTube so it is difficult to go back and check. But from a holistic point of view, 61 seems high for a short program with three major errors.

I'm wondering if Mao's FS can be viewed through the same lens as the others. But first let me say I love Mao. She's my favorite active skater. Before the SP I hoped she would win the gold medal.

So the reason I'm questioning is that Mao's FS didn't have the same competitive burden on it as the three medalists. Adelina, Carolina, and Yuna started out the FS separated by less than a point and they were skating for all the marbles, so to speak, while Mao was essentially out of contention. It's not the same level of pressure. We really have no way of knowing if that's the performance she would have skated, if she'd made it to the final group with the gold medal on the line.

I feel 10s are a big generous. No skater really gave a performance that was worth 10s, especially in IN and PE. Kostner came close in the short. I've rewatched Kim's LP, while I do feel it was much better than Adelina's program, I just don't think it was one of her best performances, and lacked a bit of the magic that was present in Kostner and Mao's LPs. But I have to say that her Tango LP was much better than Les Miz. I think I agree with her saying that it wasn't an easy program to skate to, not so much technically as artistically. I think a Tango is always difficult because it requires more energy, little more sass and attitude. She did a really good job but the program perhaps needed a little more to work.

I'll try this.... does anyone know where I can find commentaryless programs?

delete///delete

AC96 said:

Hi everyone,

First time poster here. I was bored so I decided to score the top 4 ladies free skates from Sochi myself out of curiosity, taking inspiration from our very own Ziggy (who I don't think I saw do this, or anyone else for that matter...if I missed it, let me know & feel free to merge!). I tried to be as objective as possible, but of course, that's impossible in this sport...I did this late at night so forgive me if there are mathematical errors.

Asada

3A +1 I admit, part of it is the knee-jerk reaction, "OMG a triple axel!"
3F+3Lo 0 I saw the replay and thought it looked fully rotated
3Lz (e) -1
CCoSp4 +2 the centering was exceptional here
FCSp4 0 transition to the catchfoot was a little shaky
2A+3T +1 again, disagreed with the caller
3S +2 generous, I know, but I love how the entry & the jump itself go so perfectly with the swell of the music, along with the little hop as a transition out of it
3F+2Lo+2Lo +1
3Lo +1
FCCoSp4 +1
StSq4 +3 best step sequence of the night (along with Carolina)
ChSq1 +3

Skating Skills - 9.0 excellent ankle work and control, but I find Asada to be one of the slower skaters - otherwise I would have gone up to 9.5
Transitions/Linking Footwork - 8.5 in the entire program, she never takes more than 3 back crossovers in a row, which I find absolutely astonishing; lots of transitions to make the program interesting throughout
Performance/Execution - 9.25 perhaps I'm misunderstanding this criteria, but she skated with such command and conviction (the moment after she lands her final 3Lo always gets me) so I have to go higher here
Choreography/Composition - 8.5 I thought her short was better choreographed, but to each his own
Interpretation 8.75 she did it justice, nothing else to say

78.66 + 70.4 = 149.06

Kostner

3Lz +1 gorgeous jump but the telegraphing is a tad excessive
2A+3T +2
3F +2
FCCoSp4 +1
FCSp4 +1 Kostner isn't the most flexible or fast spinner, but the positions she hits are very aesthetically pleasing
3Lo 0
3T+2T 0 a little shaky
3S 0
3S+2T+2T +1
StSq4 +3 amazing moment
ChSq1 +3
CCoSp4 +1

Skating Skills 9.5 best in the ladies field
Transitions/Linking Footwork 8.0 lots of telegraphing, and she sacrificed intricacy for artistic integrity, which I'm fine with - I rewarded her in the other components
Performance/Execution 9.25 she sells this SO well
Choreography/Composition 9.0 I would have gone higher but I'm disappointed she replaced the final salchow with the spin (I know, I know, she never landed it cleanly, but it would've been cool to see)
Interpretation 9.5 amazing, no other way to put it

68.35 + 72.4 = 140.75

Kim

3Lz+3T +3 the apex of ladies' jumping
3F +2
3S+2T +1 her edge jumps are not her best
FCCoSp4 +1
StSq3 +2
3Lz 0 free leg was a little swingy, not secure
2A+2T+2Lo +1
3S +1
LSp3 0
ChSq1 +1 this sequence was okay, but not great - the spiral position isn't nice to look at and yet somehow manages to be unsatisfyingly short at the same time
2A +1
CCoSp4 +2

Skating Skills 9.25 watching the video from an aerial point of view - her speed and ice coverage is fantastic
Transitions/Linking Footwork 8.25 a little lacking, she tends to sacrifice intricacy to maintain her amazing speed and power
Performance/Execution 8.5 in all honesty, I almost got the impression that she was somewhat marking the movements as opposed to fully performing them (that is to say, it was not as magical as her 2010 performance, for instance)
Choreography/Composition 8.75 David Wilson has done better...Scheherazade, Les Mis, and Homage were all better
Interpretation 9.25 regardless of how I feel about the mediocrity of the actual program, Kim carries herself with a regal sophistication and very well portrays the overall mood and tension of Adios Nonino

65.89 + 70.4 = 136.29 - I was SHOCKED by how low I scored her - I'm a big Yuna fan, so I thought I'd have her well into the 140s.

Sotnikova

3Lz+3T< (e) I disagreed with caller and gave her both an underrotation and an edge call, which I thought were fairly obvious in the replays -2
3F +2
3Lo +1
FCSp4 +2 not really pleasing to the eye, but I can't deny the amount of flexibility those positions take
2A+3T +1 good control but...is it just me, or does she have a truly wild hammertoe going into the 3T? I've only ever seen the term hammertoe applied to lutzes and flips but here her free leg was well above hip level...
3F+2T+2Lo -2 the judges were WAY too lenient on this stumble - I almost went -3 but figured it wasn't on the same level as a fall
3S +1
2A +1
LSp4 +2
StSq3 +1 I disagreed with the callers once again - her step sequence has been receiving Level 3 all season long, including at Europeans which was only a month prior and is notorious for being one of the more generously scored competitions of the season
ChSq1 +2 I found the waving a big disingenuous and juvenile but I can't deny that gorgeous extension
CCoSp4 +2

Skating Skills 8.5 good, not great...I might've been a bit generous here...hey, it's the Olympics after all!
Transitions/Linking Footwork 8.25 not much that I could see
Performance/Execution 9.25 she performed the heck out of this program, good for her
Choreography/Composition 8.25 it disturbs me that this was a program that she had won Junior Worlds with...as previous threads mentioned, there was no underlying theme or triumphant, thought-provoking moments; it was simply movement for movement's sake
Interpretation 8.5 she interpreted what she had, I suppose (I was very, very generous here)

65.73 + 68.4 = 134.13

I didn't have the chance to score the short programs - I'll do that later - but from the looks of it, right now it seems that my picks for the podium were Carolina for gold, Kim for silver, and Mao for bronze (I'm predicting that when I score the SPs, Adelina does not have more than 16 points over Mao)...which I'm genuinely quite surprised by. What are your thoughts?

Click to expand...

KJGL said:

I'm wondering if Mao's FS can be viewed through the same lens as the others. But first let me say I love Mao. She's my favorite active skater. Before the SP I hoped she would win the gold medal.

So the reason I'm questioning is that Mao's FS didn't have the same competitive burden on it as the three medalists. Adelina, Carolina, and Yuna started out the FS separated by less than a point and they were skating for all the marbles, so to speak, while Mao was essentially out of contention. It's not the same level of pressure. We really have no way of knowing if that's the performance she would have skated, if she'd made it to the final group with the gold medal on the line.

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Why not? Pressure handling is not a judging criteria. Judges should score based on how the program is executed/performed on that particular evening of competition, not based on how skaters could have, would have, should have executed/performed. (either based on past performances of the same program, or past performances of a "better" program, or whether a skater is a podium contention, etc.)

Obviously, judges (and audience too) knowing these programs inside and out surely doesn't help either. Since we're all human, it's hard not to bring up comparison - "Oh, she did it much better in Europeans." or "She improved a lot since GPF." - Yuna's past performance of Gershwin should have NO bearings on the judging of Adios Nonino on the night of the Freeskate. Similarly, Adelina's past tendency of falling should have NO bearings on the judging of Rondo Capriccioso on the night of the Freeskate.

Great thread OP

I agree most with Kwanatic (except for the 10s). I think Carolina's programs were artistically on par with Kim's, and her spins a notch above in quality and difficulty. She did not have any major errors and her performances were beautiful, so there is a convincing case to be made for putting her ahead. Personally, I would have been really disappointed for Yuna anyway, because she was my fav, but I would have been comfortable to see Carolina edge her out for gold - at least I could make sense out of it

I♥Yuna;880522 said:

Great thread OP

I agree most with Kwanatic (except for the 10s). I think Carolina's programs were artistically on par with Kim's, and her spins a notch above in quality and difficulty. She did not have any major errors and her performances were beautiful, so there is a convincing case to be made for putting her ahead. Personally, I would have been really disappointed for Yuna anyway, because she was my fav, but I would have been comfortable to see Carolina edge her out for gold - at least I could make sense out of it

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I guess the 10s are a knee-jerk reaction to seeing Carolina finally skate two basically flawless performances. It'd be the equivalent to awarding a 6.0...I think she was the best of the night, and the only way to award that was to go over Yu-Na's scores which, TR aside, were all high 9s. I could scale back Carolina's 10s but I'd have to scale back Yu-Na's high 9s. I think my scores were:

Yu-Na:
SS - 9.50 (2nd highest behind Carolina)
TR - 8.25 (on par w/ Carolina)
PE - 9.75 (sold the program well)
IN - 9.75 (lovely interpretation of the music)
CH - 9.50 (I liked it way more than Les Mis but it's not her strongest FS and not the strongest of the night)


For Carolina, I think my scores were:

SS - 9.75 (overall, she's 2nd to none)
TR - 8.25 (about what and what w/ Yu-Na)
PE - 10.0 (sold the program much better)
IN - 10.0 (no one has nailed Bolero like her since T&D)
CH - 10.0 (best FS program of the night IMO)

I suppose I could drop the PE down to 9.75 but I'd have to drop Yu-Na to a 9.50 b/c I felt Carolina outperformed her that night. I could drop CH down to a 9.75, but in terms of the field, Carolina's Bolero was tops for me. I could have scaled all of the scores back by 0.25 or even 0.50, but the judges tend to let the high marks fly at the Olympics so, when in Rome...

I definitely feel Carolina should have been closer to gold and that it should have been a battle b/w her and Yu-Na for gold. I preferred Carolina that night but I'd have been fine with Yu-Na winning b/c she was wonderful.

Adelina, while very amazing herself, was overscored. I think my PCS for Adelina were:

Adelina (w/ inflation for argument's sake):
SS - 8.75
TR - 8.50
PE - 9.25 (she sold the hell outta that bad choreography )
IN - 8.25
CH - 8.25

Those scores would have given her about 68.80 in PCS which is fair considering what she turned in that night and, with her high TES, would have given her a medal. She definitely deserved a medal that night...just not gold.

jenaj said:

Interesting. While I do find a plausible case for gold for Carolina, I think, from memory, you have scored Mao's short program too high (and maybe Yuna's a little too low). Unfortunately, the videos are not available on YouTube so it is difficult to go back and check. But from a holistic point of view, 61 seems high for a short program with three major errors.

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There's a Facebook page with Yuna's FS: https://www.facebook.com/pages/리플레이/561226377300323 (You have to scroll down to February 20th to see it). I also watched her short 3 or 4 times on the same page, but I can't find it at the moment.

Re: Your point about scoring Mao too high, I think a large part of that came from that fact that I called her flip as clean (which, to my eye, it was). She has been scoring in the 73 range with an underrotated 3A all season (Skate America, GPF, Nationals), so let's do some quick mental math:

-2 points on the 3A (she typically gets -2, and here she gets -3 and the 1 point deduction for the fall)
-7 points for the mistake on the 3Lo combo (she would normally receive 7.59 base value and some +GOE, she got 1.08 in Sochi)
-2 points or so on PCS (I only took off points for PE; I didn't think transitions, skating skills, or choreography were impacted; perhaps interpretation to a lesser extent)
-1 on the overall lower quality of her spins/receiving a Level 3 for the CCoSp
which brings us to -12 overall. 73 - 12 = 61, give or take. If I had agreed with the judges on her flip, I would have taken off another 3 points for 58, but I did not.

I've had some time to think it over, and I think part of the reason why I scored Kim so conservatively was 1. her low base value, which can't be helped (but repeating the LSp3 in the FS was a poor decision IMO) and 2. the fact that I felt her FS was not particularly memorable or attention-catching choreographically. She also, as KJGL mentioned, had a very understated artistry that could easily have been overlooked (as I apparently did - to me, she didn't really sell the program to its full potential).

miki88 said:

I feel 10s are a big generous. No skater really gave a performance that was worth 10s, especially in IN and PE. Kostner came close in the short. I've rewatched Kim's LP, while I do feel it was much better than Adelina's program, I just don't think it was one of her best performances, and lacked a bit of the magic that was present in Kostner and Mao's LPs. But I have to say that her Tango LP was much better than Les Miz. I think I agree with her saying that it wasn't an easy program to skate to, not so much technically as artistically. I think a Tango is always difficult because it requires more energy, little more sass and attitude. She did a really good job but the program perhaps needed a little more to work.

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Agreed 100%. I tend to look at PCS with the perspective of it being a grade in school - hence to me, receiving an 8.0 is about average (B range), a 9.0 or 9.25 is exceptional (an A- grade), and a 10.0 would be nearly impossible to achieve. I thought my marks were actually quite inflated, so kwanatic's marks took me by surprise (but to each his own - as long as the ranking/point difference is the same, that's all that really matters).

AC96 said:

2. the fact that I felt her FS was not particularly memorable or attention-catching choreographically. She also, as KJGL mentioned, had a very understated artistry that could easily have been overlooked (as I apparently did - to me, she didn't really sell the program to its full potential).

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I agree with this. Yu-Na's programs were lovely but next to the energy generated by both Adelina and Carolina's FS, hers seemed somewhat lackluster. Adelina's music was very busy but energetic and she matched that energy...thanks to the crowd she got an even bigger boost and it really made her performance shine. Carolina's FS is a steady build and she really brings it home at the end with the incomparable footwork and that great spiral sequence. Yu-Na's program just seemed to quiet by comparison and I do think that (in addition to lack of exposure this season) hurt her overall.

AC96 said:

Agreed 100%. I tend to look at PCS with the perspective of it being a grade in school - hence to me, receiving an 8.0 is about average (B range), a 9.0 or 9.25 is exceptional (an A- grade), and a 10.0 would be nearly impossible to achieve. I thought my marks were actually quite inflated, so kwanatic's marks took me by surprise (but to each his own - as long as the ranking/point difference is the same, that's all that really matters).

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As I said, I could definitely scale down my scores by 0.25-0.50 but, as you said, the ranking and differential would still be the same across the board. Carolina would rank 1st in PCS, followed by Yu-Na, Mao and then Adelina...followed by Gracie, Ashley and then Julia to round out my top 7 ladies.

If I decide to write up my scores for my blog (which I am considering doing if I get the time) I'll probably scale back my scores so as not to shock people too much.

KJGL said:

I'm wondering if Mao's FS can be viewed through the same lens as the others. But first let me say I love Mao. She's my favorite active skater. Before the SP I hoped she would win the gold medal.

So the reason I'm questioning is that Mao's FS didn't have the same competitive burden on it as the three medalists.

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So?

rollerblade said:

Why not? Pressure handling is not a judging criteria.

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Exactly.

If you want to discuss whose performance you admire most, enjoyed most, etc., the level of pressure is a valid consideration. And in practice, maybe some judges are unconsciously influenced by knowing more about the skater and how the performance fits into her career than just what they see on the ice during those 4 minutes.

But according to the rules, only those 4 minutes should count in the scoring.

There is also probably unconscious influence by the skate order. Even with the theoretically absolute rather than comparative scoring under IJS, judges might tend to be more conservative with PCS in the earlier warmup groups. Asada was clearly much better in those areas than all who had skated before her -- but how much of a difference in scores would judges have been comfortable awarding that early in the evening?



Judges should score based on how the program is executed/performed on that particular evening of competition, not based on how skaters could have, would have, should have executed/performed. (either based on past performances of the same program, or past performances of a "better" program, or whether a skater is a podium contention, etc.)

Obviously, judges (and audience too) knowing these programs inside and out surely doesn't help either.

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I doubt most judges know the programs inside and out. If they've already judged it several times that season (or in previous seasons, if a skater has kept the program that long) then they'll know it better than the first time they see it. If they had the opportunity to watch some practices they'll know it better than if they didn't. But I doubt they watch and rewatch videos of all the skaters, even all potential medalists, they might be judging at the next big event.

AC96 said:

Agreed 100%. I tend to look at PCS with the perspective of it being a grade in school - hence to me, receiving an 8.0 is about average (B range), a 9.0 or 9.25 is exceptional (an A- grade), and a 10.0 would be nearly impossible to achieve.

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8.0 might be "average" for the population of elite senior medal contenders. In the full range of scores it's defined as "very good" -- 5.0 is defined as average but I tend to think of it as just "acceptable" for senior level. At lower levels 5 is a good score.

invisiblespiral said:

I'll try this.... does anyone know where I can find commentaryless programs?

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http://www.rts.ch/imports/sotchiplayer/Desktop.html#hlb=most&day=15

but I dont know if it works outside Switzerland

kwanatic said:

I definitely feel Carolina should have been closer to gold and that it should have been a battle b/w her and Yu-Na for gold. I preferred Carolina that night but I'd have been fine with Yu-Na winning b/c she was wonderful.

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Isn't that contradicting your own scores a little though? You had Yuna just 2 points ahead of Adelina, but Caro 5 points ahead of Yuna. Why would it be fair for Yuna to beat Caro, but not for Adelina to beat Yuna, when that is actually the smaller points gap?

Li'Kitsu said:

Isn't that contradicting your own scores a little though? You had Yuna just 2 points ahead of Adelina, but Caro 5 points ahead of Yuna. Why would it be fair for Yuna to beat Caro, but not for Adelina to beat Yuna, when that is actually the smaller points gap?

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Yu-Na's reputation boosts her scores. She is an incredible skater and she was wonderful that night...but I didn't think she was better than Carolina hence the larger gap in my scoring.

Realistically though, given the way Yu-Na is often scored higher compared to Carolina and Mao, I can accept her beating out Carolina...even though I don't really agree with it.

KJGL said:

Not totally surprised, a couple of your results reflect my own reactions to the programs as they played out during the competition.

Not surprised about Carolina for the gold because I thought she'd been short-shrifted on both her FS scores (and had won the SP, if only by a point or so). So I was thinking if her FS scores were put where they should have been, and she'd gained a point in the SP, it was possible that she and not Yuna might have been the one to eke out a win over Sotnikova.

Also not entirely surprised you would score Yuna low (for Yuna). As I was watching her FS, I became increasingly concerned she didn't have enough scorable content to compete with Sotnikova's packed, backloaded program. At that point we knew Sotnikova had passed Carolina in the standings and like pretty much everyone else, I always want the better skater to win. Between Sotnikova and Yuna, Yuna is obviously the better skater so I was pulling for her. Anyway, I'm watching and watching, and by the end of the first two minutes thinking maybe she backloaded her program. But she hadn't, so by the time she was finished I wasn't even conflicted that she hadn't done enough for the gold--I was convinced she hadn't. Wasn't surprised at all that it came out in Sotnikova's favor.

Later that night when I watched the highlighted coverage and heard Sandra Bezic's immediate reaction (how stunning the program, etc.) I thought, wow, I have to watch that again, because I hadn't picked up on the "stunning". I thought Yuna looked a little tired at the end. So I did, and the second time I DID see how beautiful it had been (and no longer thought she looked tired at the end). I realized the reason I didn't notice it the first time was that I had been watching too closely for content. Not only that, but the artistry was subtle, understated, making it possible to overlook it while focusing so intently on the technical side of the skate. It made me wonder if the judges had missed it, too, for similar reasons. Judges don't have the luxury of sitting back and letting the aesthetics of a program wash over them.

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YuNa won the short program, hands down; the score didn't reflect that. YuNa's long or free program has been the source of much hand wringing by many of her fans since before the Olympics and now in hindsight, for very good reason. I have no problem with how she skated it but it was always going to be a program that was so much, meh. It is ALMOST right that it lost to a more dynamic performance by Adelina... almost right. I sometimes wonder what would have happened if YuNa had a full season with this program; would she have refined it or would she have opted for the same strategy Carolina and Ashley used; go back to the tried and true? The bottom line, as far as I am concerned, is that the climax of YuNa's career now has to be considered her triumphant return to figure skating culminating in a rapturous standing ovation after her free skate at last season's Worlds. The Olympics now seems to be an epilogue to her career; "YuNa went on to compete the next year in Sochi continuing her amazing string of podium finishes earning silver in a controversial contest". She became a legend after London and Sochi neither enhanced or took away anything from that.