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Thread: 2014 Worlds: Who is the Dark Horse for the Men's podium?

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by HanDomi View Post
    The problem is many people don't understand few things. They are saying oh he falls -why he win while other skated cleanly. This is the problem of people. Yes, he falls but still he managed rest of the program better (because of level of technical difficulty and it execution) than others without fall. And it is SP+FS. Not only FS.
    As i wrote in Yuzuru topic I hope we will see great leanded 4S, because it looks as beatifull as his 4T on some practice videos.

    The thing I like about him he is not skating conservatively, he is taking all the guns
    ITA, it's not Yuzuru's fault that he's better than most of the skaters even with fall. He has the best TES potential at the current men's field. At two last WC he got the highest TES and in Sochi he also managed to get it despite his two falls and not counted 3Lz+1R+3S. I think some people don't understand that his programs are on that high level of difficulty. Just look at his SP - I guess he's one of the few skaters (the only one?) that decided to take advantage of 10% bonus in second half for 3A and combination. The same goes for his LP - in second half of the program he has two 3A (both in combination), two 3Lz (one in combination 3Lz+1R+3S) and 3R. We can have clean winning programs with so-so difficulty or almost perfectly done really difficult and demanding programs... As for me - I prefer the second option.


    And to answer the question of the topic - I think the dark horses are Han Yan and Maxim Kovtun, but both of them need to skate almost clean to get medal.

  2. #92
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    I'd love to see Han Yan Skate his short and free to their potential. --and maybe get a bit more engaged in the free.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HanDomi View Post
    The problem is many people don't understand few things. They are saying oh he falls -why he win while other skated cleanly. This is the problem of people. Yes, he falls but still he managed rest of the program better (because of level of technical difficulty and it execution) than others without fall. And it is SP+FS. Not only FS.
    As i wrote in Yuzuru topic I hope we will see great leanded 4S, because it looks as beatifull as his 4T on some practice videos.

    The thing I like about him he is not skating conservatively, he is taking all the guns
    Agree that people don't understand a few things.

    However, "This is the problem of people" - strongly disagree. This is a problem if the IJS.

    Im 100% with Dick Button on this. It should not be fall = deduction of 1 point. It should be fall = 0 points for element.

    Hands down/step-out should get a 1 point deduction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by usethis2 View Post
    @HanDomi: I don't think you can blame it all on people. I consider myself Yuzuru's fan but I see him tossing a coin every time he attempts 4S in competitions. I am not too versed with COP but it looks to me he does that because it gets him points no matter what. Correct me if I am wrong.

    But if that's actual state of affairs, then people have reason to doubt the legitimacy of competition (or even the sport).
    You're right, a fall on a fully rotated quad still gets you many, many points. Stupid as it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poice View Post
    ITA, it's not Yuzuru's fault that he's better than most of the skaters even with fall. He has the best TES potential at the current men's field. At two last WC he got the highest TES and in Sochi he also managed to get it despite his two falls and not counted 3Lz+1R+3S. I think some people don't understand that his programs are on that high level of difficulty. Just look at his SP - I guess he's one of the few skaters (the only one?) that decided to take advantage of 10% bonus in second half for 3A and combination. The same goes for his LP - in second half of the program he has two 3A (both in combination), two 3Lz (one in combination 3Lz+1R+3S) and 3R. We can have clean winning programs with so-so difficulty or almost perfectly done really difficult and demanding programs... As for me - I prefer the second option.


    And to answer the question of the topic - I think the dark horses are Han Yan and Maxim Kovtun, but both of them need to skate almost clean to get medal.
    This is the problem with COP vs. popularity of the sport.

    Some FS fans would rather see clean programs with few falls, some want to see more technically demanding programs with (inevitably) more falls. This is a matter of opinion, though I don't think there are many fans even who can say that they really really enjoyed the latest disastrous Olympic men's free skate event.

    To the once-a-year or Olympic viewer, winning with many falls just looks ridiculous. They cheer for the one performer in the top 5 with the clean program (D10 at 2013 Worlds for example & again in Sochi) and then cannot understand why a program that looks much sloppier still wins (Chan). They will likely not watch again, because they're frustrated, annoyed, infuriated, baffled etc. This must lead to a decline in the popularity of the sport.

    ETA Quads aren't the be-all end-all - There are programs with quads with so-so difficulty (frontloaded with hardly any transitions, lots of telegraphing, lots of end-to-end cross-overs, choreographed "breathing breaks" etc)., and there are really demanding and difficult programs without quads (backloaded with lots of difficult transitions, faster rhythm, lots of difficult combos/sequences, hardly any choreo breaks).

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    I have to say Bob Costas made a great point about the CoP. A casual viewer will not understand why stuff in the second half gets more points because no other sport gives a bonus for second half points. Yes, I get that you're tired but so do basketball, football, soccer players. In basketball you get rewarded for a harder shot (behind the 3 point line) but it counts the same whether it's 5 seconds into the game or 4th quarter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moviechick View Post
    Yes, I get that you're tired but so do basketball, football, soccer players. In basketball you get rewarded for a harder shot (behind the 3 point line) but it counts the same whether it's 5 seconds into the game or 4th quarter.
    I love the 10% bonus because it gives skaters an initiative to spread out their jumps during the FS. I for one, don't enjoy programs which are jump heavy in the beginning and then when we get to the 2nd half, its almost all footwork/spins.

    In ball related sports, you don't have a program. Your are aiming to only do 2 things during the entire game. Defend and attack. Protect the ball and get the ball in. Thats it, and that's all that spectators expect. And unlike FS where you are alone on the "field" in those sports you have team mates and opposing teams. You are not playing the entire game yourself, and there are teammates which are interchangeable throughout the game. If you get a 10% bonus, the other team gets a 10% bonus. You can't choose not to shoot the ball in, nor can you choose to not defend the ball. TBH that kind of comparison is apples and oranges.

    And correct me if I'm wrong, but Orser actually told Yuzuru to drop the 4S, and they can adjust their program with 4T's since he wasn't landing it consistently in competitions but he refused because he said he wanted to challenge himself. He's not the type to be satisfied with his current level and will always try to push the techinal boundries, whether its good for FS in general or not its up for debate, but its just the kids personality to not take the easy way out. He can land those 4S likes its nothing in practices and gala's so its definitely a mental thing for him, but I won't be surprised if once he masters those 4S's in competition that he'll aim for 4L's or whatever the kids next quad is I'm really hoping he lands his 4S in the WC though..more for his sake than anything else.

    -And to answer the question, I think its Kevin reynolds and Han Yan

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    Quote Originally Posted by makaihime View Post
    I love the 10% bonus because it gives skaters an initiative to spread out their jumps during the FS. I for one, don't enjoy programs which are jump heavy in the beginning and then when we get to the 2nd half, its almost all footwork/spins.

    In ball related sports, you don't have a program. Your are aiming to only do 2 things during the entire game. Defend and attack. Protect the ball and get the ball in. Thats it, and that's all that spectators expect. And unlike FS where you are alone on the "field" in those sports you have team mates and opposing teams. You are not playing the entire game yourself, and there are teammates which are interchangeable throughout the game. If you get a 10% bonus, the other team gets a 10% bonus. You can't choose not to shoot the ball in, nor can you choose to not defend the ball. TBH that kind of comparison is apples and oranges.

    And correct me if I'm wrong, but Orser actually told Yuzuru to drop the 4S, and they can adjust their program with 4T's since he wasn't landing it consistently in competitions but he refused because he said he wanted to challenge himself. He's not the type to be satisfied with his current level and will always try to push the techinal boundries, whether its good for FS in general or not its up for debate, but its just the kids personality to not take the easy way out. He can land those 4S likes its nothing in practices and gala's so its definitely a mental thing for him, but I won't be surprised if once he masters those 4S's in competition that he'll aim for 4L's or whatever the kids next quad is I'm really hoping he lands his 4S in the WC though..more for his sake than anything else.

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    I get why it's there but casual viewers definitely have a harder time with it, especially if someone's margin of victory basically comes down to back loading a program vs skating clean with a more front loaded program.

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    Quote Originally Posted by makaihime View Post
    I love the 10% bonus because it gives skaters an initiative to spread out their jumps during the FS. I for one, don't enjoy programs which are jump heavy in the beginning and then when we get to the 2nd half, its almost all footwork/spins.
    So what do you think of programs with a 2-6 layout? Or even a 1-7, or 0-8? (I don't think anyone's done that yet, but I'm sure it's not far off.) To my mind they're just as bad.




    Anyway, what am I looking forward to? The Japanese skaters being overscored at home and then the blushes and total hypocrisy of posters here as they scramble to defend their continued vicious attacks on Sotnikova and Russia...

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    I am looking forward to breakthrough performances (ala Yuzuru's in 2012) which is in essence the query posed in this thread. Han Yan comes to my mind as a podium threat; hope he has learned from his GPF and Olympic experiences to level up.

    Re the Japanese skaters, I hope the overwhelming media attention, the heavy burden of expectations (their own as well as that of the public) will not prevent them from skating their best. I think all of them, both male and female, have a personal story line which makes this particular World Championships special to them.

  12. #102
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    Thank you Maria, for staying on topic! If others want to talk about the fairness of COP and other judging matters, please do start a new thread. I'm interested to see how Peter Leibers performs. I hadn't noticed him at all until Sochi. I really liked his music choices.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Victura View Post
    Deedee1, I absolutely agree with everything you said here. In fact, even one of the above coming to fruition would make me very, very happy. Unfortunately I'm not sure what the odds are, but certainly hope to be proven wrong.
    Let's not lose our faith in them yet, and hang on to our wishful thinking, shall we? Please send your positive vibes towards Saitama during Mens comp. I will be cheering very hard for Taka Tomas and Jeremy on behalf of you and all other fans of them, I promise! If one of our wishes come true, A PARTY TIME together!

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    Anyone else think that Yuzuru should get a clean performance with 2 quad toes and 2 triple axels out of the way?

    I know he wants to challenge himself, but the 4S hasn't worked for him all season long... it might be worth his while to secure a Worlds win and train the 4S in the off-season, rather than have another inevitable splat at the start of his program? With Chan not competing, he no longer has to worry about having a considerable technical advantage to win.

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    I had to check the topic of this thread. Real dark horses are Max Aaron, kevin Reynolds and peter Liebers - I don't think Liebers has it. This is the time for one of the Czech boys finally to do it.

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