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Thread: What would have happened at Nationals from 2000-2006 had Sasha gone clean

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    What would have happened at Nationals from 2000-2006 had Sasha gone clean

    Obviously Michelle Kwan dominated U.S Nationals for a long time. However there was always hype for Sasha Cohen to dethrone Kwan there, but it never happened, with Sasha winning her only title in 2006 when Kwan didnt skate. Even in 2004 and 2005 when Sasha had displaced Kwan internationally and placed above her at worlds, Kwan emerged victorious at Nationals. However Sasha also never skated cleanly at Nationals, the closest being 2002 when she put her hands down on a jump at the end. Kwan always skated perfectly, except 2000 where Sasha would have needed her help to win at that point anyway. What would happened at each of these Nationals year by year to those with a good enough memory had Sasha gone clean. My guesses:

    2000- I think they would have given Sasha the win had she not fallen on her last jump over a very subpar Michelle who fell.
    2001- Sasha didnt skate, but was never winning this year anyway. She had a mediocre international season and was lowballed by the judges on the grand prix even when she skated well, showing she still had work to do at this point.
    2002- Kwan would have won. Sasha's mistake was not that big and she still lost handily and barely took 2nd over Hughes who was about 80% her SLC level at most.
    2003- I think they would have given Sasha the win. She had dominated the grand prix and had all the momentum coming in, even if Michelle skated great. Michelle also skated first in the last flight and they had to leave room for Sasha to win. I think Sasha was also still doing the triple lutz-triple toe around now although not sure if she did at Nationals.
    2004- Tough to say. My gut feeling is Sasha winning, but Michelle skated amazingly well after Sasha and got 7 6.0s, but she might not have gotten those if Sasha had skated cleanly, and Sasha got a 6.0 from one judge even with a fall and ugly two footed landing.
    2005- Sasha wins for sure. Michelle was lackluster, doubling her 2nd triple lutz, and skating to her lackluster Bolero number. Even if skating last she got some candy joke 6.0s after Sasha had faltered though.

    So my guess would be Sasha could actually have 5 National titles which would be the same as Michelle is left with, which is amazing to think when in actuality it is Kwan who was so dominant at U.S Nationals. Of course that would require Sasha skating cleanly each time, which would never be realistic anyway, when Kwan who was a far more consistent skater and jumper didnt even manage that.

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    I agre on all you said. As talented as she was from the very first senior competition of her career at the age of 15, Sasha could never become a strong competitor (but even when falling once to three times in a competition, she ended up on the podium or very close to it because of her beautiful skating.

    Having said that, I do think she somehow managed to influence the ladies' skating far more than dominant Kwan ever did. Nowadays, we see young girls with amazing extension on her choreographic spiral sequences and beautiful flexibility on their difficult spinning positions and overall posture presentation (and many of them actually copy some of her signature moves).

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    It does seem many young skaters have alot of Sasha esque moves. However I do think alot of that is just because COP is very oriented to alot of the type of moves someone like Sasha does.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jcsamex View Post
    Having said that, I do think she somehow managed to influence the ladies' skating far more than dominant Kwan ever did. Nowadays, we see young girls with amazing extension on her choreographic spiral sequences and beautiful flexibility on their difficult spinning positions and overall posture presentation (and many of them actually copy some of her signature moves).
    The "it" factor can't be copied. You either have it or you don't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jenaj View Post
    The "it" factor can't be copied. You either have it or you don't.
    i never saw 'it' with sasha, she was one of the most itless skaters i've ever seen

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    Quote Originally Posted by jcsamex View Post
    I agre on all you said. As talented as she was from the very first senior competition of her career at the age of 15, Sasha could never become a strong competitor (but even when falling once to three times in a competition, she ended up on the podium or very close to it because of her beautiful skating.

    Having said that, I do think she somehow managed to influence the ladies' skating far more than dominant Kwan ever did. Nowadays, we see young girls with amazing extension on her choreographic spiral sequences and beautiful flexibility on their difficult spinning positions and overall posture presentation (and many of them actually copy some of her signature moves).
    It is interesting how much stylistic influence Sasha has had on later skaters. I wish she'd decided to stay on at least partway through the next Olympic cycle. As it turned out, we really needed someone of her caliber.

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    She always had clean Sps and almost always lost to Kwan! Facts are she was never beating Kwan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    She always had clean Sps and almost always lost to Kwan! Facts are she was never beating Kwan.
    the facts are she beat Kwan at Worlds in 2004 and 2005

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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Obviously Michelle Kwan dominated U.S Nationals for a long time. However there was always hype for Sasha Cohen to dethrone Kwan there, but it never happened, with Sasha winning her only title in 2006 when Kwan didnt skate. Even in 2004 and 2005 when Sasha had displaced Kwan internationally and placed above her at worlds, Kwan emerged victorious at Nationals. However Sasha also never skated cleanly at Nationals, the closest being 2002 when she put her hands down on a jump at the end. Kwan always skated perfectly, except 2000 where Sasha would have needed her help to win at that point anyway. What would happened at each of these Nationals year by year to those with a good enough memory had Sasha gone clean. My guesses:

    2000- I think they would have given Sasha the win had she not fallen on her last jump over a very subpar Michelle who fell.
    2001- Sasha didnt skate, but was never winning this year anyway. She had a mediocre international season and was lowballed by the judges on the grand prix even when she skated well, showing she still had work to do at this point.
    2002- Kwan would have won. Sasha's mistake was not that big and she still lost handily and barely took 2nd over Hughes who was about 80% her SLC level at most.
    2003- I think they would have given Sasha the win. She had dominated the grand prix and had all the momentum coming in, even if Michelle skated great. Michelle also skated first in the last flight and they had to leave room for Sasha to win. I think Sasha was also still doing the triple lutz-triple toe around now although not sure if she did at Nationals.
    2004- Tough to say. My gut feeling is Sasha winning, but Michelle skated amazingly well after Sasha and got 7 6.0s, but she might not have gotten those if Sasha had skated cleanly, and Sasha got a 6.0 from one judge even with a fall and ugly two footed landing.
    2005- Sasha wins for sure. Michelle was lackluster, doubling her 2nd triple lutz, and skating to her lackluster Bolero number. Even if skating last she got some candy joke 6.0s after Sasha had faltered though.

    So my guess would be Sasha could actually have 5 National titles which would be the same as Michelle is left with, which is amazing to think when in actuality it is Kwan who was so dominant at U.S Nationals. Of course that would require Sasha skating cleanly each time, which would never be realistic anyway, when Kwan who was a far more consistent skater and jumper didnt even manage that.
    So nice to see a thread about Sasha! Many thanks, Pangtongfan! Its so refreshing after all that endless Adelina -Yuna battle... I am a huge Sasha fan and I miss her terribly.
    Just a correction about 2001. She got a problem with her back (severe arthritis) at the very beginning of the 2000/2001 season and didn't compete all season. She could skate but could not do any jumps at all; and had to re-learn all her jumps in the spring of 2001. So it was not a case of not winning anything that season but not competing at all.
    I feel that her back problem (which was recurring) was a major reason why she didnt win more competitions, she lost a lot of confidence in her jumps and they let her down continuously. I wish she never tried quad which definetely contributed to her arthritis if not caused it at all.
    Also I think she paid a price for being artistic it is difficult if not impossible to combine such level of artistry with a 7 triple layout in lp she continuously attempted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hyperinflation View Post
    i never saw 'it' with sasha, she was one of the most itless skaters i've ever seen
    Yes, Michelle was the one with "it" factor. The original post said that Sasha was influential because later skaters copied her bendy positions. But what Michelle had couldn't be copied.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    So my guess would be Sasha could actually have 5 National titles which would be the same as Michelle is left with, which is amazing to think when in actuality it is Kwan who was so dominant at U.S Nationals.
    Agreed. But she could never be consistent with her jumps which is such a shame. I also think Sasha should have had first place in 2000.

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    Quote Originally Posted by melissa_ire View Post
    the facts are she beat Kwan at Worlds in 2004 and 2005
    She beat Michelle at at least one cheesefest as I recall. But she never won gold over Michelle at a major competition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by melissa_ire View Post
    the facts are she beat Kwan at Worlds in 2004 and 2005
    And in 2004, Michelle did beat her in the FS so it wasn't as a decisive win and most of Michelle's wins over Sasha were. So basically, on the important stages (meaning not Cheesefests), Sasha has won 4 SPs (Nats '00/'04, Worlds '04/'05)and 1 LP (Worlds '05) over Michelle (plus two Cheesefests LPs I believe). Over 6 years. That's not a good win %.

    What I find very telling is that of all Michelle's wins at Nationals, Sasha never stole an ordinal in the LP. I think if Sasha was crystal clean and Michelle had mistakes, she should've won regardless who the better skater was at the time, but I think with the exception of maybe 2003 and 2004 (Sasha had a lot of momentum going into Nationals those years, IIRC), Michelle had a one fall advantage over Sasha. She was not going to beat Michelle in 2000 or 2002 if she had been clean with how Michelle skated those years, she barely edged Sarah out for silver. I hate when people play the "what if" game because had Sasha been more Tara-like in "bringing it" when it counted, who is to say how Michelle would've skated-would she have stepped it up and been even better...or would she have faltered instead? Much like Shiz in 2006-she didn't have to risk a lot at Olympics, just needed to let her strengths shine through and not fall.

    Michelle was a great 6.0 skater, with many strengths. Who knows what would have happened had Michelle came up under COP instead, but if she still had the same foundation, I truly believe she would've excelled, just would not have had the same longevity. I always felt Sasha was missing something, which was more evident in person, IMO. She was amazingly flexible and had beautiful positions and fantastic spins, but her power, blade work, basic technique, ice coverage was inferior compared to some of the skaters who came up training figures.

    Again, IMO. I am a life long Michelle fan, but after SLC, I was waiting for Sasha to come out and win everything and I kinda feel like she kept coming up short because of her basics, more so than her nerves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hyperinflation View Post
    i never saw 'it' with sasha, she was one of the most itless skaters i've ever seen

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    Michelle never did a thing for me; it was Sasha who got me interested in ladies' skating. And I think that is why people love Julia L; she is reminiscent of Sasha.

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