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Thread: PCS of Japanese Skaters

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    PCS of Japanese Skaters

    The World Championship this year is going to be a feast for fans of Japanese skaters but there are often complaints about their low PCS. Is it really a problem or just a myth?

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    I am counting days for Yuzuru to break 300+ in men's singles. If he achieves that before he burns out in a couple years, I think that record will be secure for a quite some time. Though I am not really a fan of his opening 4S because it's just obvious that he's tossing a coin every time he does it because it's a plus whether he lands it or not.

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    Forever stuck on those steps Li'Kitsu's Avatar
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    There are some underscored japanese skaters, some rightfully scored, some argueably overscored - just as it is with skaters from all different nations. It's more of a reputation thing.

    Takahashi was at the short end of the stick (compared to Chan) for a while, but these days, he's PCS are huge (rightfully, IMO). Hanyu deserves his SP PCS, but his LP PCS at the Olympics for example were too high. Kozuka, or these days Machida argueably, are among the most famous examples of constant PCS underscoring.
    On the ladies side, Suzuki and Murakami could be called undermarked. Asada is definitly not undermarked compared to the majority of skaters, but it gets trickier comparing her to Kostner or Kim, or as of these Olympics, the russian + Gold (which was more of overscoring on the latters part).

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    Japanese Skaters always get good PCS. Never been low.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PftJump View Post
    Japanese Skaters always get good PCS. Never been low.
    really? Kozuka always gets low PCS even though he has one of the best SS along with Patrick Chan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ks777 View Post
    really? Kozuka always gets low PCS even though he has one of the best SS along with Patrick Chan.
    Kozuka has great skating skills, good speed, soft knees, but I don't think his edge quality is comparable to Takahashi or Chan. His FS was underscored back at 2011 worlds. He should've got at least 85 for PCS. As for skating skills, I think only Takahashi and Chan deserve 9+, given they skate cleanly. Chan probablly deserves 9.5+.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Li'Kitsu View Post
    Kozuka, or these days Machida argueably, are among the most famous examples of constant PCS underscoring.
    Kozuka is inconsistent so doesnt usually give judges the chance to give him high PCS. Machida is pretty boring and I can totally understand his PCS.

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    Forever stuck on those steps Li'Kitsu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan
    Kozuka is inconsistent so doesnt usually give judges the chance to give him high PCS. Machida is pretty boring and I can totally understand his PCS.
    Inconsistency is a factor, true, but it shouldn't be. Other skaters, like Chan and Takahashi, are getting their huge marks however they skate too, so Kozuka should be getting huge SS marks just as much. And remember 2012 SA, when Kozuka skated a clean SP and was eaten alive by Hanyu? He's not getting rewarded even if he skates well. This problem overlaps a lot with the corridor judging though, as it's really the SS mark it's about with Kozuka, while I get he has deficiencies in other regards.
    'Pretty boring' isn't a scoring factor though. I don't enjoy Machidas skating style at all either, but he's a pretty solid all around skater (and his SP is pretty good). Maybe he's not outright underscored, but I find him (and Mura, tbh) to be underscored relatively to quite a few other skaters on the scene. It's like the overall inflatation of the last seasons just missed them or something.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy
    It would be outrageous if another NHK 2012 happened with Mao
    Erm... but back then, Mao beat Akiko, another japanese lady. I don't really get how that goes together with 'overall japanese inflatation'. To be honest, I think maybe except for Yuzuru and Mao, nobody will really get a boost to their scores. And I don't find the scores of these two, even in Japan, to be all that bad either... there's always a bit of home town boost, but I find it to be relatively tame in Japan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Li'Kitsu View Post
    Inconsistency is a factor, true, but it shouldn't be. Other skaters, like Chan and Takahashi, are getting their huge marks however they skate too, so Kozuka should be getting huge SS marks just as much.
    Chan and Takahashi have built up a reputation over many years. Kozuka has not done that. Many still complain about Chan's scores when he falls and/or stumbles all around, so a lesser status skater is not going to get that benefit. Furthermore his skating skills while excellent, are not Chan esque and his interpretation and performances skills or not of Takahashi's level, so he cant afford to make the mistakes they do. And when I talked about his inconsistency I don't mean he shouldn't be rewarded with quite high PCS when he skates well, of course he should. However internationally he has not skated well or close to a clean competition since before December 2012 or so, so of course he wont have seen very high PCS in the interim.

    As for Machida not creating much excitement or interest with your skating (aka pretty boring) can translate into your scores in all of performance, interpretation, and even choreography. Not skating with exceptional speed or dynamic can also translate into skating skills. I do agree many of his peers are overmarked (Chan, Hanyu, Fernandez) in PCS though, and simply dropping others downwards would help close the gap somewhat for him, but his own are not too low for sure IMO. I cant think of any competition in his career he was really robbed in general. He could have medaled in Sochi, especialy in the poorly skated event, but he didn't deliver. I would not have had him finish over Ten who had less mistakes, or Fernandez who has as many or more but is simply a better and more interesting skater. Remember the mens was the only discipline in Sochi which was not affected by the whole Russian thing with Plushenko's late WD so whichever result each skater got was probably the right one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Kozuka is inconsistent so doesnt usually give judges the chance to give him high PCS. Machida is pretty boring and I can totally understand his PCS.
    It's all relative. I don't find Machida boring at all

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anna K. View Post
    The World Championship this year is going to be a feast for fans of Japanese skaters but there are often complaints about their low PCS. Is it really a problem or just a myth?
    This is a very difficult issue. Some days yes. Other days no. Some skaters more or less so than others. A lot seems to depend on where the event is and who they are competing against.

    Biggest factors seems to be that judging does have its biases based on where the event is being held and who the locals like.

    Also, although I do think that Hanyu used to have that problem (and he probably still will if he was to compete against Chan in Canada), I don't think he generally does now pretty well anywhere. Maybe he can be separated out from the issue. Kozuka gets screwed a lot and I think he always will (but only outside of Japan). Oda even got screwed in Japan (at NHK this year and for his short at the Japanese Nationals no less). The women never had a chance at Sochi. People can say that the judging is done fairly because international judges are chosen, but you just have to look at the results.

    So, ya, a lot of crap happens with the judging. I get the impression that ISU and the Federations want it that way though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by phaeljones View Post

    I get the impression that ISU and the Federations want it that way though.
    Honestly, I don’t get where Japanese federation stands regarding this. There are three countries that constantly have 1-2 (sometimes more) clearly PCS inflated skaters: Canada, Russia, and US. That makes sense. Having a gold medal in hand attracts the attention of public and brings in money. These are big countries so this is big money. But Japan in no poor country, too, and figure skating is really popular here! They could invest either in the existing system or in changes. So the question is, what do they want? Do they want not?

    Or, the problem is simply that there are only 3 places on the podium and Japan is the number 4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anna K. View Post
    The World Championship this year is going to be a feast for fans of Japanese skaters but there are often complaints about their low PCS. Is it really a problem or just a myth?
    For sure not Hanyu since December 2013!

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    Quote Originally Posted by will74lsn View Post
    For sure not Hanyu since December 2013!
    I thought Hanyu was underscored in PCs even during the beginning of the reason. But then again, he had a "poor" LP at Skate Canada and had PCs of 76, which is arguably around "right". I think even at his worst, he deserves PCs in the low to mid 80s (same range as Javier).

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    Kanako has always been undermarked.

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