PCS of Japanese Skaters | Page 2 | Golden Skate

PCS of Japanese Skaters

pangtongfan

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Jun 16, 2010
And I'm mainly argueing for him being underscored when he skates really well. (I'm even among the people who think he should have been a lot closer to Chan in the 2011 worlds LP, and maybe he should have even won that).
But still, Chan was always inconsistent too. Still, he kind of managed to get a reputation. I couldn't even say it was because of his wins, because it already started back at the beginning of the 2010-11 season, when he wasn't as decorated as he is now. Hanyus PCS shoot up like crazy too from wolds 2012 to SA 2012, and besides his worlds bronze, he had nothing. Kozuka has a worlds silver and it didn't help him at all.

Chan did have two seasons of very consistent skating when he was young in 2007-2008, 2008-2009, culminating in the best overall season of anyone in 08-09 and the World silver. His reputation was already set. Coming back from injury he went on to skate well at the Olympics and Worlds in 2010, not absoltuely perfectly but far from a meltdown either. After some horrible multi mistake performances in fall 2010 (and yes some horrible judging of them) he righted the ship and skated much more consistently for the next 2 years. His only truly bad performance in that time was the LP of the 2011 Grand Prix final (where yes he was held up) and 2012 Skate Canada, and the inconsistency did not really start up consistently again until the LP of the 2012 Grand Prix final (and even that was rectified again this year minus the short program at the GPF and LP at the Games). I don't think he is as inconsistent as potrayed, and heaven knows I am no Chan fan, and I do think on the whole he is much more consistent than Kozuka. Either way he established a much large reputation in the sport so he is more likely to be forgiven for mistakes and I do NOT agree with his PCS when he makes a lot of mistakes anyway, but he is one of the few that will be given that kind of kindness in those situations.

Kozuka vs Hanyu? Well Hanyu really established himself at the 2012 Worlds, and he skated super consistent in the 2011-2012 season. Kozuka had already become inconsistent in the 2011-2012 season backpedaling the respect he had earned himself in 2010-2011. The talk he was underscored that season, despite his strong showings, would likely have seen his PCS and scores rise further in 2011-2012 had he stayed on course. He seemed to be getting back on track in fall 2012 but then missed Worlds with a disaesterous Nationals, and by now Hanyu and Takahashi were much bigger names in Japan heading into the Olympic year. Reputation and especialy national pecking order will always be a factor in the scoring, whether we like it or not. I do still agree he should get very good PCS when he skates very well, cleanly or with few errors, but I honestly cant think of many times that happened recently. The last time was a grand prix event in 2012 and he won that one. He skated well at Nationals this year but made too many mistakes to beat Machida for 2nd and secure a spot on the team, and his PCS were higher than Machida and Oda by a good margin IIRC.


It's not just Chan, Hanyu or Fernandez, but just from memory speaking and without looking it up, Machida got the short end of the stick compared to others like Reynolds, Aaron or Kovtun sometimes too. That doesn't mean I think he was ever robbed, but that's not what I mean when I talk about being underscored (and I agree with his 5th place finish at Sochi too, the only thing I'd like to argue with is Ten beating Fernandez, especially because it was due to that absolutely ridiculous combination of Zayak rules).

At first glance I was upset at Ten beating Fernandez but then I broke the protocol down and saw Fernandez actually had 6 mistakes or 6 places he gave up several points or more in jump passes, either with a miss, leaving something out, downgrading something, or something being discounted. That is too many mistakes to make, so now I have to agree with Ten's bronze. The Zayak rule is ridiculous but even that could be negated by saying Ten was too low in PCS. Ten is a very elegant skater, with good musical sense, and strong basics so to be barely over 80 for a virtually clean skate with Fernandez, Takahashi, Hanyu, and Chan were all around 90s for their mistake ridden programs was just wrong. It is not like the judges would ever go out of their way to give Ten a gift, the most unfair result in mens skating of the quad was his loss to Chan at Worlds last year after all, so he is no judges favorite.

I think if Machida skates cleanly or even well at home in Japan, he will atleast on this occasion more than get the marks he deserves and certainly not be robbed of a medal if he earns one.

Aaron is not scored well on PCS. He lost a spot at the Olympics despite skating brilliantly and near perfectly at Nationals with many quads to quadless Brown all based on a chasm in PCS (perhaps justified, but he certainly gets no gifts on PCS). A shame as he likely would have been the top American man at the Games, and could have even maybe won the bronze given the other performances there.

Reynolds has improved his PCS hugely for himself, but still got significantly lower PCS than Machida in the Team event at the Games. I believe Brown was given lower than Machida too. Plushenko's PCS well :laugh: it was the Russian Mafia games when it came to skating basically.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Jan 25, 2013
Chan did have two seasons of very consistent skating when he was young in 2007-2008, 2008-2009, culminating in the best overall season of anyone in 08-09 and the World silver. His reputation was already set. Coming back from injury he went on to skate well at the Olympics and Worlds in 2010, not absoltuely perfectly but far from a meltdown either. After some horrible multi mistake performances in fall 2010 (and yes some horrible judging of them) he righted the ship and skated much more consistently for the next 2 years. His only truly bad performance in that time was the LP of the 2011 Grand Prix final (where yes he was held up) and 2012 Skate Canada, and the inconsistency did not really start up consistently again until the LP of the 2012 Grand Prix final (and even that was rectified again this year minus the short program at the GPF and LP at the Games). I don't think he is as inconsistent as potrayed, and heaven knows I am no Chan fan, and I do think on the whole he is much more consistent than Kozuka. Either way he established a much large reputation in the sport so he is more likely to be forgiven for mistakes and I do NOT agree with his PCS when he makes a lot of mistakes anyway.

Am I reading this right? This coming from somebody who is a broken record when it comes to saying how Chan falls 5 times and makes every effort to bash him? I think the universe just imploded. :eek:
 

pangtongfan

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Jun 16, 2010
Am I reading this right? This coming from somebody who is a broken record when it comes to saying how Chan falls 5 times and makes every effort to bash him? I think the universe just imploded. :eek:

I didn't say he wasn't inconsistent. I don't think he is an inconsistent as Kozuka though. I see more competitions where Kozuka seems to have a lot of mistakes than Chan. Chan atleast quite often skates very well with limited mistakes (although also quite often when he has quite a few). In this very very inconsistent era of men he actually is probably one of the more consistent ones relatively speaking, as unfortunate as that is. There are times when Chan does make a lot of mistakes and atleast one other top skater doesn't (Oda SC 2010, Takahashi LP GPF 2011, Takahashi 2012 Worlds/especialy LP, Ten 2013 Worlds) and attains ridiculous scores and placements, nothing I said contradicted that.

Kozuka very rarely puts is together after the 2011 Worlds. And yes I know he has bad luck with injuries, but obviously the judges aren't going to score that. I also said I do not agree with Chan's scores a lot of the times, especialy when he makes mistakes, but also that it is unrealistic to think many others will get the same leaniency as Chan and somewhat Hanyu, the two biggest names in the sport right now. I haven't seen any indication the judges wont give Kozuka very high scores and very high PCS if he skates very well, something he only occasionaly does in competition the last 3 years.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Jan 25, 2013
I didn't say he wasn't inconsistent. I don't think he is an inconsistent as Kozuka though. I see more competitions where Kozuka seems to have a lot of mistakes than Chan. Chan atleast quite often skates very well with limited mistakes (although also quite often when he has quite a few). In this very very inconsistent era of men he actually is probably one of the more consistent ones relatively speaking, as unfortunate as that is. There are times when Chan does make a lot of mistakes and atleast one other top skater doesn't (Oda SC 2010, Takahashi LP GPF 2011, Takahashi 2012 Worlds/especialy LP, Ten 2013 Worlds) and attains ridiculous scores and placements, nothing I said contradicted that.

I'm glad you've changed your tune and are more fair in your assessment of Chan. I'm just thoroughly surprised considering you've constantly made snide, untrue, hyperbolic statements about Chan winning with 5 falls, so for you to say he often skates very well with limited mistakes and is one of the more consistent ones in this quadrennial relatively speaking, is kind of astounding to hear coming from you.
 

Li'Kitsu

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2011
The rule is rather ridiculous, but so is Javier for not adapting to it. Surely, he must have known that if he tripled one of his quad salchow, his final jumping pass had to be changed from a salchow. The sad thing is, if he trained his final jump to be any other jump 2A/3A/3F/3L/3Z/3T, he would have been fine.

He seemed to know that he shouldn't be doing his other 2 planned 3Ss. The 3S in his sequence was turned into a double, and I'd think that was on purpose. The irony is that if he would have done it the other way around - doing the triple in sequence and doubling the single jump - he would have been fine.

pangtognfan said:
At first glance I was upset at Ten beating Fernandez but then I broke the protocol down and saw Fernandez actually had 6 mistakes or 6 places he gave up several points or more in jump passes, either with a miss, leaving something out, downgrading something, or something being discounted. That is too many mistakes to make, so now I have to agree with Ten's bronze. The Zayak rule is ridiculous but even that could be negated by saying Ten was too low in PCS. Ten is a very elegant skater, with good musical sense, and strong basics so to be barely over 80 for a virtually clean skate with Fernandez, Takahashi, Hanyu, and Chan were all around 90s for their mistake ridden programs was just wrong. It is not like the judges would ever go out of their way to give Ten a gift, the most unfair result in mens skating of the quad was his loss to Chan at Worlds last year after all, so he is no judges favorite.

I wouldn't call Fernandez robbed or say it was a clear thing, but IMO, I'd have him slightly ahead. These '6 mistakes' make it sound worse than it is though. He popped the 3T to a 2T, the 3Lz to a 2Lz and the 4S to a 3S. Those were bad mistakes, but it still leaves him with a layout that is easily comparable to Tens and a visibly good skate (and Ten had to visible stumbles too). Additionally, the difference in my perception comes from the disagreement with the discounting of his 3S completely, I guess. He didn't even repeat 3 jumps, or did one jump 3 times.
And while Fernandez PCS were too high, I just can't seem to get into Tens skating all that much. His basics are good, but already not that much better than Fernandez (at least not anymore), and his programs are empty and bland. He does have a good feel for the music, but he looked tight and very focused on the technical part to me. IMO, Fernandez even had the better performance, so he already (rightfully) owns 3 out of the 5 PCS marks (CH, TR, PE). I wouldn't have him that far ahead of Ten, but I'd had him way closer in TES. And he did have the better SP.
 

Li'Kitsu

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Dec 29, 2011
Aaron is not scored well on PCS.

But that's because he doesn't deserve good PCS. Just because his PCS aren't great doesn't mean they can't be wrong in comparison to another skater. Same for Reynolds. He was 4 points lower than Machida in the team LP, but arguably, it should have been more than that. (And to make that clear, I enjoy both Aaron and Reynolds more than Machida).
Brown actually got higher PCS than Machida in the individual LP, about 2 points, while having more mistakes than Machida.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Jan 25, 2013
I agree with the statement about Ten, but it was pretty clear that he was thinking about the jumps throughout his skate and not selling the choreography as much as, say, his Worlds FS last year. All the men were seemingly "thinking" throughout their skates, and had this tentativeness to them. I think Takahashi, and maybe Abbott, were the only ones who got into their music the most.

I think that was one of the most underwhelming aspects of the men's competition. Even with the errors, nobody really sold their program (somebody like Misha Ge, for example, seemed to be way more "into it" than many of the top guys). Nervousness clearly affected the entire field. As many commentators said, did anybody care about getting a bronze medal?
 

pangtongfan

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Jun 16, 2010
I'm glad you've changed your tune and are more fair in your assessment of Chan. I'm just thoroughly surprised considering you've constantly made snide, untrue, hyperbolic statements about Chan winning with 5 falls, so for you to say he often skates very well with limited mistakes and is one of the more consistent ones in this quadrennial relatively speaking, is kind of astounding to hear coming from you.

My 4 and 5 fall references were born from two events in fall of 2010. First 2010 Skate Canada where he did literally fall 4 times and beat Oda who had only 1, which was a clearly unfair and wrong result. Then again Oda has been screwed by years, whether it be by his own federation or the judges. Now Chan does deserve much higher PCS than Oda, although Oda also has fabulous skating skills which go unrewarded in PCS. However the GOE of the jumps and many of the other elements was poorly judged, especialy as Oda arguably has/had the best jumps in the world when landed. Then his next grand prix event he made something between 6 to 7 falls equivalent (not 6 or 7 falls but the equivalent) worth of mistakes over the 2 program s(before the days of reduced GOE that is 28 points worth as a fall was -3 points in GOE, and -1 for a fall, that is before factoring in possible lost +GOE and PCS) and still just barely lost to Verner who was completely clean. I could break down the exact protocals of that event and show you what I meant. Now by that point he was a better skater than Verner in pretty much every aspect, and Verner's program was nothing special, no quad try in either program and a very measured performance, but Verner is the 2008 European Champion, and just missed a medal at the 2009 Worlds so it is not like this is some bottom scrub we are talking about. While generally that was the worst it ever got (atleast until the 2013 Worlds) that is were the specific 4 or 5 fall reference came from.
 

pangtongfan

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Jun 16, 2010
But that's because he doesn't deserve good PCS. Just because his PCS aren't great doesn't mean they can't be wrong in comparison to another skater.

I think they were too low compared to Jason Brown. I like Brown but the Olympics judges would not score Aaron skating cleanly with all those quads 15 points lower in PCS than Jason Brown in the LP as they did at U.S Nationals. None of their international PCS indicate this. The GOE for Brown were also flying high even including National inflation. In hindsight it is clear Aaron probably would have been the best U.S finisher at the Games, and he could have even had a medal shot, so it is a real shame he wasnt there, especialy skating as well as he did at Nationals.


Same for Reynolds. He was 4 points lower than Machida in the team LP, but arguably, it should have been more than that. (And to make that clear, I enjoy both Aaron and Reynolds more than Machida).

Fair enough. That shows a change though, as last season Reynolds would have gotten higher PCS than Machida, which shows he is gaining respect while Reynolds with his subpar season has gone down some. His skating skills are way superior to Reynolds for sure, not sure there is as large a difference in the other PC categories.

Brown actually got higher PCS than Machida in the individual LP, about 2 points, while having more mistakes than Machida.

I didnt realize that. I agree that is wrong. How many points did Machida miss winning a medal by btw? I never looked at his scores too closely, only the top 4.


I agree the Zayak rule and some of the COP stipulations on the jump layout are terrible, and unfortunately Fernandez was a victim, but that is the fault of COP and the ISU more than the judges. I also agree Ten is kind of boring, and I dont think he will ever be one of my favorite skaters to watch.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Jan 25, 2013
To recap the Cup of Russia event 2010, Chan fell 4 times between the SP and LP. In the FS, his PCS was only 3 points higher than Verner which is about right since as you said he was better than Verner in every aspect. Verner, as you said, skated well but a measured performance, and in the FS he made minor errors on his 3A and 2A, and no quad attempt. As for the "5th fall", Chan had a 2A+3T negated because of the Zayak Rule. It was a pretty big mental error, because after falling on his opening quad, he did a 3A+3T (one of the only ones I've seen him do, actually) and with two axel attempts and two lutzes, he should have just done a 2A+2T for the win. With that error, Verner won the FS by 11 points, and without any quad attempt or as good spins/footwork as Chan, and even Chan did a 2A+2T, Verner still would have won the FS by 6 points (although lost overall). However, you can't consider Chan actually falling 5 times because of the Zayak rule, and at any rate, he lost the FS and the competition (as he should have).

The reality is, Chan has won exactly once with 4 falls, and never with 5 falls. If he did just a 2A+2T, he would have won CoR 2010 with 4 falls. Saying you actually were referring to an 'equivalent' of 6-7 falls when he fell 4 times SP+LP combined - and lost the competition at that - is pretty lame. I agree that the Oda result was wrong (and yes, Oda was screwed left right and centre), and 2013 Worlds (Ten unfortunately not having the last name Hanyu/Fernandez/Takahashi), and when he beat Javier at Skate Canada. But those are his controversial wins in my opinion (you like to argue 2012 Worlds but you already know my stance and the CoP justification for that win... essentially the same justification for Hanyu winning the GPF).

In the past, you have made it sound like his career is littered with controversial wins - even starting threads seemingly about some skaters like S/S and making it about Chan - and saying he can win with 5 falls (or even 4 when that only happened a single time) when you're referring to a result where he came 2nd with 4 falls, is frankly misleading, not giving him credit for the elements he does execute and his skating ability overall, and trivializing an otherwise stellar career for him where the vast majority of his wins were merited. When you have an artistic skater, they're bound to have controversial wins/placements - hence Takahashi's placements or when Buttle won Four Continents with 2 falls or Kostner being 2nd at Worlds last year after an SP fall, or the Germans over the Canadians last year with their LP problems. It's frankly something that has to be fixed with the sport, but to smear the skaters for judging that's beyond their control is unfair.
 

pangtongfan

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Jun 16, 2010
Here are the exact protocals of COR 2010:

http://www.isuresults.com/results/gprus2010/gprus10_Men_FS_Scores.pdf

The first quad toe was not only a fall but downgraded. He lost 3.1 points for the downgrade so close to 2 falls worth of mistakes alrady. Triple axel fall so now almost 3 falls worth of errors. Triple lutz turned into a sequence, scored as a fall, so now roughly 4 points worth of errors (adding the little bit lost of a sequence ratio of the element). The double axel-triple toe discounted, done late that is worth about 8 points (approximately 2 falls, considering each fall is -3 and another 1 for a fall) so now up to 6 falls worth of errors. There he could have done a double axel-double toe-double loop combination which done late would be worth almost 7 points in base value. Fall on the 3 axel in the short so that makes 7 falls worth of errors just as I said. For him to come that close to winning overall vs a clean (even if unspectacular and quadless) Verner is just plain wrong. As for what to change about the scores (other than so much of the nonsense that makes up COP) PCS for a skate with that many disruptive falls should never be that high, and many of the GOE for his good elements were excessive, as they often are.

Then there was Skate Canada before that where he did literally fall 4 times and win over Oda who fell only once. At Cup of Russia he did have 7 falls worth of falls of mistakes and nearly won (would have won with only 6).

So again my 4 and 5 fall worth of mistakes reference was from those events and it was based on reality and actual events. I did even cut him some slack for COR as I didnt refer to his 6 or 7 fall margin anyway (and plus I know there are better skaters than Verner by that point).


As for the number of controversial results, even if all those you mentioned were all there were that is still alot for any skater to have, and some of those are in the extreme. Most people view the scoring of the 2012 Worlds and 2011 Grand Prix final controversial as well, whether you choose to accept it or not. Just like drivingmissdaisy refuses to accept the 2014 ladies result is a major controversy does not make it so. So those get added to the list too, regardless your opinion, as that is clearly what most people believe. It is not just about the final result but the scoring. Takahashi getting PCS closer to Amodio in than Chan in the 2012 Worlds LP is completely unaccpetable and cannot possibly be justified with any amount of attempt to. The same with Chan winning the LP phase of the 2011 Grand Prix final (where he skated worse than worlds) over Takahashi, regardless of the overall result.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Jan 25, 2013
Here are the exact protocals of COR 2010:

http://www.isuresults.com/results/gprus2010/gprus10_Men_FS_Scores.pdf

The first quad toe was not only a fall but downgraded. He lost 3.1 points for the downgrade so close to 2 falls worth of mistakes alrady. Triple axel fall so now almost 3 falls worth of errors. Triple lutz turned into a sequence, scored as a fall, so now roughly 4 points worth of errors. The double axel-triple toe discounted, done late that is worth about 8 points (approximately 2 falls) so now up to 6 falls worth of errors. Fall on the 3 axel in the short so that makes 7 falls worth of errors just as I said. For him to come that close to winning overall vs a clean (even if unspectacular and quadless) Verner is just plain wrong.

Then there was Skate Canada before that where he did literally fall 4 times and win over Oda who fell only once.

So again my 4 and 5 fall worth of mistakes reference was from those events and it was based on reality and actual events.

If you're going to apply this falls-equivalent "logic" with Chan, then you should also apply that type of "equivalence" logic to Verner. By virtue of opting for lutzes instead of matching Chan's attempts at quads, along with his stepout/handdown on the 2A, Verner technically made "2 falls worth" of errors... choosing a 3Z instead of a 4T in the SP (a base value loss of 4.3 points to Chan), and opting for 3Z instead of 4T in his LP (a base value loss of 1.2 points to Chan's 4T<), and then the 2A error - he was not "clean" in the FS as you had suggested - lost him about 1.5 points -- about 7 points lost = 2 falls. Oh yeah, and if Verner didn't have a lip in both his SP and LP and landed his solo 3A cleanly in both programs, he would have gotten GOE bonus instead of deductions, so technically, he gave up almost 1 fall's worth of points there. So, really, Verner made about "3 falls worth" of errors, even though he didn't actually fall.

One more thing, Chan didn't lose 8 points with the 2A*+3T*, because he only could have done a 2A+2T (worth less than 5 points) given the content he had already executed.

Let's see... with your equivalent "logic", Takahashi at 2012 Worlds technically made 3 falls worth of errors: in his SP by getting a downgraded 3T -- a combo with a BV of 14.40 turned 11.6 turned 8.74 after GOE reduction, he lost about 5.7 points, in his LP the 3F< cost him 3 points, and him doing a 3Z instead of a second quad to match Chan was giving up 4.3 points... a total of about 13 points lost.

With this logic, Denis Ten had the "equivalent of 2 falls" worth of errors in his 2013 FS by doubling two triples (a loss of about 7 points compared to a 3F+3T) and a loss of 1.5 points of BV for doing a quad and 2 axels to Chan's 2 quads and axel. See how ridiculous this is starting to sound?

A fall is a fall. There's no "equivalent falls". You can't say Takahashi won silver at 2012 Worlds in spite of 3 falls worth. Just as much as you can't say Chan won silver at CoR 2010 with 6 or 7 falls worth.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
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Jan 25, 2013
Takahashi getting PCS closer to Amodio in than Chan in the 2012 Worlds LP is completely unaccpetable.

You really need to stop making this comparison. If Amodio was scored lower, it wouldn't make it suddenly okay that Takahashi was underscored (which he was, although only by about 2-3 points of PCS). Even if Takahashi's PCS was 90, Chan still would have won. And if you think Chan getting 90.14 with 1 fall in the 2012 Worlds FS was too high, Hanyu's 1 fall in the FS of the 2013 GPF scored him PCS of 92.50 and in Sochi with 2 falls Hanyu scored 90.98. You can bet if Hanyu has a similar skate at Worlds in Japan his PCS will be 92+. I don't think it'll be as ridiculous as Plushenko's 95+ Nationals FS, or Sotnikova's Olympics PCS, though. :laugh:
 

Violet

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Aug 2, 2010
You really need to stop making this comparison. If Amodio was scored lower, it wouldn't make it suddenly okay that Takahashi was underscored (which he was, although only by about 2-3 points of PCS). Even if Takahashi's PCS was 90, Chan still would have won. And if you think Chan getting 90.14 with 1 fall in the 2012 Worlds FS was too high, Hanyu's 1 fall in the FS of the 2013 GPF scored him PCS of 92.50 and in Sochi with 2 falls Hanyu scored 90.98. You can bet if Hanyu has a similar skate at Worlds in Japan his PCS will be 92+. I don't think it'll be as ridiculous as Plushenko's 95+ Nationals FS, or Sotnikova's Olympics PCS, though. :laugh:
I used to be a Chan hater, petty much like many members in this forum. But later I realized why he deserved most of the wins and he actually has made huge progress on the artistic aspect. One thing many people are not always aware of is that a downgraded (and many times two-footed) quad jump is scored way less than a fully rotated quad with a fall. A 4T for example, in the first case is worth at most 2+, and in the second case worth 6+ if we take into account the additional -1 deduction. But the general public and the audience always visualize the latter one as a way more serious mistake than the first case. That's why people don't understand why Patrick won despite the falls. Is the rule reasonable? Maybe. Because a fallen quad is probably much harder than a quad that is underrotated by more than 180 degree, which is actually less than 3.5 revolutions.

I agree that although nowhere near Plushenko's consistency in his era, Patrick has actually been at least the top 2 most consistent top skaters for the last 4 years, definitely more consistent than Takahashi, Fernandez and many others. The reason why many men's skaters can't be as consistent as in the past is because almost everybody attempts quads and at the same time does intricate in-between stuff and step sequences. In Plushenko's era or before, the steps and transitions were far less complex and that was why it was easier to deliver a clean skate even with the quads included.

If you look at the protocol for 2012 worlds, Takahashi, with a virtually clean skate, still lost to Chan on the technical side by less than 1 point, who made two mistakes, one fall on the 2A and a doubled 3S. Takahashi's TES was also 3 points lower than Hanyu who also had 1 quad and two 3As in the FS and actually fell on the step sequence. Therefore, even if Takahashi received the same PCS as Chan (even though I personally think that program deserves at most 87+), he still wouldn't be able to win. The thing is, the quality of his jumps are not comparable to either Chan or Hanyu, or even 2011's Kozuka-- GOEs made the difference. In fact, with virtually identical jump base values, the TES of Takahashi's "clean" FS in 2012 was 10 points lower than Kozuka's FS in 2011. 88+ vs 98+. The high PCS for Chan's FS at 2012 is acceptable to me given the quality of that program both technically and artistically. His consistency that season also contributed to it. He delivered two virtually clean skates for that intricate LP at 4CC and nationals prior to the worlds .
 

Violet

Rinkside
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Aug 2, 2010
Back to Kozuka's PCS. His consistency is truly the problem. Seems like he can deliver at most one good skate for each program per season for the last few years, whereas Machida has been quite consistent this season and no wonder he gets higher PCS. It looks like if you can keep giving clean skates consecutively through competitions, your score will be boosted up each time even if you just skate exactly the same way. It is true almost for every skater. Hanyu's SP at TEB this season was actually slightly better than at GPF (where he messed up the last spin), but he got a higher score at GPF (maybe partly because of home ice advantage too). Then he gave another two clean skates for the SP at the Olympics, where his PCS went up notably in the individual event. The same thing happened to Jason. He never made any big mistakes in his SP for the whole season, and every time he competed, he got a new personal best :) I think for the judges, consistency means credibility. They don't want to reward people too much for skating cleanly pretty much due to luck. I think this is pretty fair.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Jan 25, 2013
Thank you Violet! I agree with both of your posts. You should post more often!

I also agree that skaters should be rewarded for consistency, although one hopes that they don't simply give clean performances and expect their PCS to rise without making any improvements or upping the difficulty. For example, Mirai's Nationals LP and Plushenko's Sochi team skates both got exceedingly high PCS, simply because they were "visibly clean" skates (even with Plushenko's doubles) and little heed was paid to the lack of content in between their elements.
 

Violet

Rinkside
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Aug 2, 2010
Thank you Violet! I agree with both of your posts. You should post more often!

I also agree that skaters should be rewarded for consistency, although one hopes that they don't simply give clean performances and expect their PCS to rise without making any improvements or upping the difficulty. For example, Mirai's Nationals LP and Plushenko's Sochi team skates both got exceedingly high PCS, simply because they were "visibly clean" skates (even with Plushenko's doubles) and little heed was paid to the lack of content in between their elements.

Hi CanadianSkaterGuy, after reviewing some of the past competitions and protocols, I now find myself agree with the judges 99% of the time. After all, they are judges that have gone through years of professional training to qualify. Of course, they should be much better in giving fair scores than us amateurs. Due to the subjectivity of this sport, it can never be completely equitable. In fact, many times, the gold medal can go to either one of two skaters and it really depends on the judges, like Yuna vs AS or Chan vs Yuzu (They could very well have given Yuzu 85+ PCS or lower for that performance, given that a better performance at TEB got only 81+). But a true champion would always want a definite win with huge margins.

It is funny that I find people argue about similar things over and over again in different threads, and I find it hard to change people's opinions and convince them even if you give hard evidence and reasonable arguments. So instead, why not take the time to enjoy more figure skating programs? :)
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
I wouldn't say I agree with them 99% of the time. Many times they have shown bias and skewed PCS scores that affect results. However, I do think that most of the IJS results I agree with once you take a look at what the skaters landed, what their difficulty attempted was, their levels, their GOE being factored in, etc.

I really think before people run their mouth claiming so-and-so was robbed, scandal, etc. they should take a look at the protocols.

Hah, some posters here neglect to even look at the video or protocol before deciding that a result is scandalous or rigged. I know, crazy eh! :laugh:
 

Anna K.

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Country
Latvia
Thus far, looks like Machida and Hanyu are getting home PCS at their home Worlds competition.

Kozuka still has to find a judge to hug :yes:
 
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