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Thread: PCS of Japanese Skaters

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Who cares if they get inflated scores. They deserve it after Russian skaters getting about 20 points higher than they deserved just for being in Russia in some cases, and lord knows Japan has done a heck of alot more for the sport than Russia ever has these last 8 years. They should throw more of a Japanese inflation party than usual to throw it right back in Mother Russia's face if anything.
    As much as that would be deserved, two wrongs don't make a right and every skater should be judged fairly. It would be outrageous if another NHK 2012 happened with Mao, not as outrageous as Sotnikova winning, but still.

  2. #17
    Forever stuck on those steps Li'Kitsu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan
    Kozuka is inconsistent so doesnt usually give judges the chance to give him high PCS. Machida is pretty boring and I can totally understand his PCS.
    Inconsistency is a factor, true, but it shouldn't be. Other skaters, like Chan and Takahashi, are getting their huge marks however they skate too, so Kozuka should be getting huge SS marks just as much. And remember 2012 SA, when Kozuka skated a clean SP and was eaten alive by Hanyu? He's not getting rewarded even if he skates well. This problem overlaps a lot with the corridor judging though, as it's really the SS mark it's about with Kozuka, while I get he has deficiencies in other regards.
    'Pretty boring' isn't a scoring factor though. I don't enjoy Machidas skating style at all either, but he's a pretty solid all around skater (and his SP is pretty good). Maybe he's not outright underscored, but I find him (and Mura, tbh) to be underscored relatively to quite a few other skaters on the scene. It's like the overall inflatation of the last seasons just missed them or something.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy
    It would be outrageous if another NHK 2012 happened with Mao
    Erm... but back then, Mao beat Akiko, another japanese lady. I don't really get how that goes together with 'overall japanese inflatation'. To be honest, I think maybe except for Yuzuru and Mao, nobody will really get a boost to their scores. And I don't find the scores of these two, even in Japan, to be all that bad either... there's always a bit of home town boost, but I find it to be relatively tame in Japan.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Li'Kitsu View Post
    Inconsistency is a factor, true, but it shouldn't be. Other skaters, like Chan and Takahashi, are getting their huge marks however they skate too, so Kozuka should be getting huge SS marks just as much.
    Chan and Takahashi have built up a reputation over many years. Kozuka has not done that. Many still complain about Chan's scores when he falls and/or stumbles all around, so a lesser status skater is not going to get that benefit. Furthermore his skating skills while excellent, are not Chan esque and his interpretation and performances skills or not of Takahashi's level, so he cant afford to make the mistakes they do. And when I talked about his inconsistency I don't mean he shouldn't be rewarded with quite high PCS when he skates well, of course he should. However internationally he has not skated well or close to a clean competition since before December 2012 or so, so of course he wont have seen very high PCS in the interim.

    As for Machida not creating much excitement or interest with your skating (aka pretty boring) can translate into your scores in all of performance, interpretation, and even choreography. Not skating with exceptional speed or dynamic can also translate into skating skills. I do agree many of his peers are overmarked (Chan, Hanyu, Fernandez) in PCS though, and simply dropping others downwards would help close the gap somewhat for him, but his own are not too low for sure IMO. I cant think of any competition in his career he was really robbed in general. He could have medaled in Sochi, especialy in the poorly skated event, but he didn't deliver. I would not have had him finish over Ten who had less mistakes, or Fernandez who has as many or more but is simply a better and more interesting skater. Remember the mens was the only discipline in Sochi which was not affected by the whole Russian thing with Plushenko's late WD so whichever result each skater got was probably the right one.

  4. #19
    Forever stuck on those steps Li'Kitsu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Chan and Takahashi have built up a reputation over many years. Kozuka has not done that. Many still complain about Chan's scores when he falls and/or stumbles all around, so a lesser status skater is not going to get that benefit. Furthermore his skating skills while excellent, are not Chan esque and his interpretation and performances skills or not of Takahashi's level, so he cant afford to make the mistakes they do. And when I talked about his inconsistency I don't mean he shouldn't be rewarded with quite high PCS when he skates well, of course he should. However internationally he has not skated well or close to a clean competition since before December 2012 or so, so of course he wont have seen very high PCS in the interim.
    And I'm mainly argueing for him being underscored when he skates really well. (I'm even among the people who think he should have been a lot closer to Chan in the 2011 worlds LP, and maybe he should have even won that).
    But still, Chan was always inconsistent too. Still, he kind of managed to get a reputation. I couldn't even say it was because of his wins, because it already started back at the beginning of the 2010-11 season, when he wasn't as decorated as he is now. Hanyus PCS shoot up like crazy too from wolds 2012 to SA 2012, and besides his worlds bronze, he had nothing. Kozuka has a worlds silver and it didn't help him at all.

    As for Machida not creating much excitement or interest with your skating (aka pretty boring) can translate into your scores in all of performance, interpretation, and even choreography. Not skating with exceptional speed or dynamic can also translate into skating skills. I do agree many of his peers are overmarked (Chan, Hanyu, Fernandez) in PCS though, and simply dropping others downwards would help close the gap somewhat for him, but his own are not too low for sure IMO. I cant think of any competition in his career he was really robbed in general. He could have medaled in Sochi, especialy in the poorly skated event, but he didn't deliver. I would not have had him finish over Ten who had less mistakes, or Fernandez who has as many or more but is simply a better and more interesting skater. Remember the mens was the only discipline in Sochi which was not affected by the whole Russian thing with Plushenko's late WD so whichever result each skater got was probably the right one.
    It's not just Chan, Hanyu or Fernandez, but just from memory speaking and without looking it up, Machida got the short end of the stick compared to others like Reynolds, Aaron or Kovtun sometimes too. That doesn't mean I think he was ever robbed, but that's not what I mean when I talk about being underscored (and I agree with his 5th place finish at Sochi too, the only thing I'd like to argue with is Ten beating Fernandez, especially because it was due to that absolutely ridiculous combination of Zayak rules).

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    The rule is rather ridiculous, but so is Javier for not adapting to it. Surely, he must have known that if he tripled one of his quad salchow, his final jumping pass had to be changed from a salchow. The sad thing is, if he trained his final jump to be any other jump 2A/3A/3F/3L/3Z/3T, he would have been fine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Li'Kitsu View Post
    And I'm mainly argueing for him being underscored when he skates really well. (I'm even among the people who think he should have been a lot closer to Chan in the 2011 worlds LP, and maybe he should have even won that).
    But still, Chan was always inconsistent too. Still, he kind of managed to get a reputation. I couldn't even say it was because of his wins, because it already started back at the beginning of the 2010-11 season, when he wasn't as decorated as he is now. Hanyus PCS shoot up like crazy too from wolds 2012 to SA 2012, and besides his worlds bronze, he had nothing. Kozuka has a worlds silver and it didn't help him at all.
    Chan did have two seasons of very consistent skating when he was young in 2007-2008, 2008-2009, culminating in the best overall season of anyone in 08-09 and the World silver. His reputation was already set. Coming back from injury he went on to skate well at the Olympics and Worlds in 2010, not absoltuely perfectly but far from a meltdown either. After some horrible multi mistake performances in fall 2010 (and yes some horrible judging of them) he righted the ship and skated much more consistently for the next 2 years. His only truly bad performance in that time was the LP of the 2011 Grand Prix final (where yes he was held up) and 2012 Skate Canada, and the inconsistency did not really start up consistently again until the LP of the 2012 Grand Prix final (and even that was rectified again this year minus the short program at the GPF and LP at the Games). I don't think he is as inconsistent as potrayed, and heaven knows I am no Chan fan, and I do think on the whole he is much more consistent than Kozuka. Either way he established a much large reputation in the sport so he is more likely to be forgiven for mistakes and I do NOT agree with his PCS when he makes a lot of mistakes anyway, but he is one of the few that will be given that kind of kindness in those situations.

    Kozuka vs Hanyu? Well Hanyu really established himself at the 2012 Worlds, and he skated super consistent in the 2011-2012 season. Kozuka had already become inconsistent in the 2011-2012 season backpedaling the respect he had earned himself in 2010-2011. The talk he was underscored that season, despite his strong showings, would likely have seen his PCS and scores rise further in 2011-2012 had he stayed on course. He seemed to be getting back on track in fall 2012 but then missed Worlds with a disaesterous Nationals, and by now Hanyu and Takahashi were much bigger names in Japan heading into the Olympic year. Reputation and especialy national pecking order will always be a factor in the scoring, whether we like it or not. I do still agree he should get very good PCS when he skates very well, cleanly or with few errors, but I honestly cant think of many times that happened recently. The last time was a grand prix event in 2012 and he won that one. He skated well at Nationals this year but made too many mistakes to beat Machida for 2nd and secure a spot on the team, and his PCS were higher than Machida and Oda by a good margin IIRC.


    It's not just Chan, Hanyu or Fernandez, but just from memory speaking and without looking it up, Machida got the short end of the stick compared to others like Reynolds, Aaron or Kovtun sometimes too. That doesn't mean I think he was ever robbed, but that's not what I mean when I talk about being underscored (and I agree with his 5th place finish at Sochi too, the only thing I'd like to argue with is Ten beating Fernandez, especially because it was due to that absolutely ridiculous combination of Zayak rules).
    At first glance I was upset at Ten beating Fernandez but then I broke the protocol down and saw Fernandez actually had 6 mistakes or 6 places he gave up several points or more in jump passes, either with a miss, leaving something out, downgrading something, or something being discounted. That is too many mistakes to make, so now I have to agree with Ten's bronze. The Zayak rule is ridiculous but even that could be negated by saying Ten was too low in PCS. Ten is a very elegant skater, with good musical sense, and strong basics so to be barely over 80 for a virtually clean skate with Fernandez, Takahashi, Hanyu, and Chan were all around 90s for their mistake ridden programs was just wrong. It is not like the judges would ever go out of their way to give Ten a gift, the most unfair result in mens skating of the quad was his loss to Chan at Worlds last year after all, so he is no judges favorite.

    I think if Machida skates cleanly or even well at home in Japan, he will atleast on this occasion more than get the marks he deserves and certainly not be robbed of a medal if he earns one.

    Aaron is not scored well on PCS. He lost a spot at the Olympics despite skating brilliantly and near perfectly at Nationals with many quads to quadless Brown all based on a chasm in PCS (perhaps justified, but he certainly gets no gifts on PCS). A shame as he likely would have been the top American man at the Games, and could have even maybe won the bronze given the other performances there.

    Reynolds has improved his PCS hugely for himself, but still got significantly lower PCS than Machida in the Team event at the Games. I believe Brown was given lower than Machida too. Plushenko's PCS well it was the Russian Mafia games when it came to skating basically.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Chan did have two seasons of very consistent skating when he was young in 2007-2008, 2008-2009, culminating in the best overall season of anyone in 08-09 and the World silver. His reputation was already set. Coming back from injury he went on to skate well at the Olympics and Worlds in 2010, not absoltuely perfectly but far from a meltdown either. After some horrible multi mistake performances in fall 2010 (and yes some horrible judging of them) he righted the ship and skated much more consistently for the next 2 years. His only truly bad performance in that time was the LP of the 2011 Grand Prix final (where yes he was held up) and 2012 Skate Canada, and the inconsistency did not really start up consistently again until the LP of the 2012 Grand Prix final (and even that was rectified again this year minus the short program at the GPF and LP at the Games). I don't think he is as inconsistent as potrayed, and heaven knows I am no Chan fan, and I do think on the whole he is much more consistent than Kozuka. Either way he established a much large reputation in the sport so he is more likely to be forgiven for mistakes and I do NOT agree with his PCS when he makes a lot of mistakes anyway.
    Am I reading this right? This coming from somebody who is a broken record when it comes to saying how Chan falls 5 times and makes every effort to bash him? I think the universe just imploded.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Am I reading this right? This coming from somebody who is a broken record when it comes to saying how Chan falls 5 times and makes every effort to bash him? I think the universe just imploded.
    I didn't say he wasn't inconsistent. I don't think he is an inconsistent as Kozuka though. I see more competitions where Kozuka seems to have a lot of mistakes than Chan. Chan atleast quite often skates very well with limited mistakes (although also quite often when he has quite a few). In this very very inconsistent era of men he actually is probably one of the more consistent ones relatively speaking, as unfortunate as that is. There are times when Chan does make a lot of mistakes and atleast one other top skater doesn't (Oda SC 2010, Takahashi LP GPF 2011, Takahashi 2012 Worlds/especialy LP, Ten 2013 Worlds) and attains ridiculous scores and placements, nothing I said contradicted that.

    Kozuka very rarely puts is together after the 2011 Worlds. And yes I know he has bad luck with injuries, but obviously the judges aren't going to score that. I also said I do not agree with Chan's scores a lot of the times, especialy when he makes mistakes, but also that it is unrealistic to think many others will get the same leaniency as Chan and somewhat Hanyu, the two biggest names in the sport right now. I haven't seen any indication the judges wont give Kozuka very high scores and very high PCS if he skates very well, something he only occasionaly does in competition the last 3 years.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    I didn't say he wasn't inconsistent. I don't think he is an inconsistent as Kozuka though. I see more competitions where Kozuka seems to have a lot of mistakes than Chan. Chan atleast quite often skates very well with limited mistakes (although also quite often when he has quite a few). In this very very inconsistent era of men he actually is probably one of the more consistent ones relatively speaking, as unfortunate as that is. There are times when Chan does make a lot of mistakes and atleast one other top skater doesn't (Oda SC 2010, Takahashi LP GPF 2011, Takahashi 2012 Worlds/especialy LP, Ten 2013 Worlds) and attains ridiculous scores and placements, nothing I said contradicted that.
    I'm glad you've changed your tune and are more fair in your assessment of Chan. I'm just thoroughly surprised considering you've constantly made snide, untrue, hyperbolic statements about Chan winning with 5 falls, so for you to say he often skates very well with limited mistakes and is one of the more consistent ones in this quadrennial relatively speaking, is kind of astounding to hear coming from you.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    The rule is rather ridiculous, but so is Javier for not adapting to it. Surely, he must have known that if he tripled one of his quad salchow, his final jumping pass had to be changed from a salchow. The sad thing is, if he trained his final jump to be any other jump 2A/3A/3F/3L/3Z/3T, he would have been fine.
    He seemed to know that he shouldn't be doing his other 2 planned 3Ss. The 3S in his sequence was turned into a double, and I'd think that was on purpose. The irony is that if he would have done it the other way around - doing the triple in sequence and doubling the single jump - he would have been fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by pangtognfan
    At first glance I was upset at Ten beating Fernandez but then I broke the protocol down and saw Fernandez actually had 6 mistakes or 6 places he gave up several points or more in jump passes, either with a miss, leaving something out, downgrading something, or something being discounted. That is too many mistakes to make, so now I have to agree with Ten's bronze. The Zayak rule is ridiculous but even that could be negated by saying Ten was too low in PCS. Ten is a very elegant skater, with good musical sense, and strong basics so to be barely over 80 for a virtually clean skate with Fernandez, Takahashi, Hanyu, and Chan were all around 90s for their mistake ridden programs was just wrong. It is not like the judges would ever go out of their way to give Ten a gift, the most unfair result in mens skating of the quad was his loss to Chan at Worlds last year after all, so he is no judges favorite.
    I wouldn't call Fernandez robbed or say it was a clear thing, but IMO, I'd have him slightly ahead. These '6 mistakes' make it sound worse than it is though. He popped the 3T to a 2T, the 3Lz to a 2Lz and the 4S to a 3S. Those were bad mistakes, but it still leaves him with a layout that is easily comparable to Tens and a visibly good skate (and Ten had to visible stumbles too). Additionally, the difference in my perception comes from the disagreement with the discounting of his 3S completely, I guess. He didn't even repeat 3 jumps, or did one jump 3 times.
    And while Fernandez PCS were too high, I just can't seem to get into Tens skating all that much. His basics are good, but already not that much better than Fernandez (at least not anymore), and his programs are empty and bland. He does have a good feel for the music, but he looked tight and very focused on the technical part to me. IMO, Fernandez even had the better performance, so he already (rightfully) owns 3 out of the 5 PCS marks (CH, TR, PE). I wouldn't have him that far ahead of Ten, but I'd had him way closer in TES. And he did have the better SP.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Aaron is not scored well on PCS.
    But that's because he doesn't deserve good PCS. Just because his PCS aren't great doesn't mean they can't be wrong in comparison to another skater. Same for Reynolds. He was 4 points lower than Machida in the team LP, but arguably, it should have been more than that. (And to make that clear, I enjoy both Aaron and Reynolds more than Machida).
    Brown actually got higher PCS than Machida in the individual LP, about 2 points, while having more mistakes than Machida.

  12. #27
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    I agree with the statement about Ten, but it was pretty clear that he was thinking about the jumps throughout his skate and not selling the choreography as much as, say, his Worlds FS last year. All the men were seemingly "thinking" throughout their skates, and had this tentativeness to them. I think Takahashi, and maybe Abbott, were the only ones who got into their music the most.

    I think that was one of the most underwhelming aspects of the men's competition. Even with the errors, nobody really sold their program (somebody like Misha Ge, for example, seemed to be way more "into it" than many of the top guys). Nervousness clearly affected the entire field. As many commentators said, did anybody care about getting a bronze medal?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Kozuka is inconsistent so doesnt usually give judges the chance to give him high PCS. Machida is pretty boring and I can totally understand his PCS.
    It's all relative. I don't find Machida boring at all

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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I'm glad you've changed your tune and are more fair in your assessment of Chan. I'm just thoroughly surprised considering you've constantly made snide, untrue, hyperbolic statements about Chan winning with 5 falls, so for you to say he often skates very well with limited mistakes and is one of the more consistent ones in this quadrennial relatively speaking, is kind of astounding to hear coming from you.
    My 4 and 5 fall references were born from two events in fall of 2010. First 2010 Skate Canada where he did literally fall 4 times and beat Oda who had only 1, which was a clearly unfair and wrong result. Then again Oda has been screwed by years, whether it be by his own federation or the judges. Now Chan does deserve much higher PCS than Oda, although Oda also has fabulous skating skills which go unrewarded in PCS. However the GOE of the jumps and many of the other elements was poorly judged, especialy as Oda arguably has/had the best jumps in the world when landed. Then his next grand prix event he made something between 6 to 7 falls equivalent (not 6 or 7 falls but the equivalent) worth of mistakes over the 2 program s(before the days of reduced GOE that is 28 points worth as a fall was -3 points in GOE, and -1 for a fall, that is before factoring in possible lost +GOE and PCS) and still just barely lost to Verner who was completely clean. I could break down the exact protocals of that event and show you what I meant. Now by that point he was a better skater than Verner in pretty much every aspect, and Verner's program was nothing special, no quad try in either program and a very measured performance, but Verner is the 2008 European Champion, and just missed a medal at the 2009 Worlds so it is not like this is some bottom scrub we are talking about. While generally that was the worst it ever got (atleast until the 2013 Worlds) that is were the specific 4 or 5 fall reference came from.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Li'Kitsu View Post
    But that's because he doesn't deserve good PCS. Just because his PCS aren't great doesn't mean they can't be wrong in comparison to another skater.
    I think they were too low compared to Jason Brown. I like Brown but the Olympics judges would not score Aaron skating cleanly with all those quads 15 points lower in PCS than Jason Brown in the LP as they did at U.S Nationals. None of their international PCS indicate this. The GOE for Brown were also flying high even including National inflation. In hindsight it is clear Aaron probably would have been the best U.S finisher at the Games, and he could have even had a medal shot, so it is a real shame he wasnt there, especialy skating as well as he did at Nationals.


    Same for Reynolds. He was 4 points lower than Machida in the team LP, but arguably, it should have been more than that. (And to make that clear, I enjoy both Aaron and Reynolds more than Machida).
    Fair enough. That shows a change though, as last season Reynolds would have gotten higher PCS than Machida, which shows he is gaining respect while Reynolds with his subpar season has gone down some. His skating skills are way superior to Reynolds for sure, not sure there is as large a difference in the other PC categories.

    Brown actually got higher PCS than Machida in the individual LP, about 2 points, while having more mistakes than Machida.
    I didnt realize that. I agree that is wrong. How many points did Machida miss winning a medal by btw? I never looked at his scores too closely, only the top 4.


    I agree the Zayak rule and some of the COP stipulations on the jump layout are terrible, and unfortunately Fernandez was a victim, but that is the fault of COP and the ISU more than the judges. I also agree Ten is kind of boring, and I dont think he will ever be one of my favorite skaters to watch.

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