Imagining alternative partners in pairs/dance

pangtongfan · Mar 19, 2014

hyperinflation said:
lol sale/pelletier was never gonna last, i could not roll my eyes harder when they started shoving that 'canada's sweethearts' crap down our throats in 2002. did people forget he left his first wife for jamie or that he was a ginormous douchecanoe or...

I laughed too at the potrayal of them as innocent angels and the nicest and most genuine people you would ever find by the Canadian press. David was always known for his Lloyd Eisler like temper and huge tantrums. No surprise at all he commited adultery for the third time and is now divorced from Jamie. I am happy for her to be with a new man who will hopefully treat her the way she deserves. Jamie I liked and still like today but she is a bigtime diva, and even will admit so herself.

The big wuzrobbed thing in SLC was also not easy to swallow, despite that I agreed they probably should have won there (although far from the worst decision I have ever seen) when they had been the judges pets and most held up team in the last 15 years in pairs (thinking from now back to 98 or so) in the years leading up to SLC. Their bogus win at the 2001 Worlds in CANADA and their win at the 2000 grand prix final were far worse victories than their SLC loss was, but nobody cared or said a thing. Needless to say my compassion for them in SLC was zero. Someone like Kim was robbed far worse than S&P in SLC but nobody comes to bat for her, she isnt North American and the media daring after all. The only ones I felt sorry for were Elena & Anton who after years of dealing with SC politics and blatant overscoring for S&P were treated like criminals for their controversial win in SLC.

hyperinflation · Mar 19, 2014

I laughed too at the potrayal of them as innocent angels and the nicest and most genuine people you would ever find by the Canadian press. David was always known for his Lloyd Eisler like temper and huge tantrums. No surprise at all he commited adultery for the third time and is now divorced from Jamie. I am happy for her to be with a new man who will hopefully treat her the way she deserves. Jamie I liked and still like today but she is a bigtime diva, and even will admit so herself.

actually, i'm pretty sure jamie was the one who cheated first with her hockey player partner on battle of the blades. david was always a huge douche, but jamie was the manipulative one. i will never get over her sobbing hysterically on the podium......girl if 14 yr old teenage gymnasts can keep their sh!t together for five minutes on the podium, so can you as a grownass woman. i'm really glad canada has dumped sale/pelletier from our collective public consciousness and recognized them for the hot messes they are because i could never stand them

i felt bad for elena and anton too. like does no one remember s/p's hideous SP or what

Ryan O · Mar 19, 2014

pangtongfan said:
I laughed too at the potrayal of them as innocent angels and the nicest and most genuine people you would ever find by the Canadian press. David was always known for his Lloyd Eisler like temper and huge tantrums. No surprise at all he commited adultery for the third time and is now divorced from Jamie. I am happy for her to be with a new man who will hopefully treat her the way she deserves. Jamie I liked and still like today but she is a bigtime diva, and even will admit so herself.

I think David Pelletier has been married twice, not three times, so I'm not sure how he could have committed adultery 3 times unless you mean doing it twice to the same wife.

Anyway, while that was certainly rumoured in the press on a few occasions, we don't know for sure what happened since none of the players have gone public or done a 'tell-all' in an interview.

I agree that Pelletier was bad-tempered and difficult to get along with in his early days, and he admitted that in a number of interviews. He said Richard Gauthier made him get his act together and told him he had to have a positive attitude if he wanted to be one of his students. It's true that Sale can definitely be a diva, but it's not like she's the only one of those in skating. I lost some respect for them myself over the years, but there's no doubt that they are still the best pairs team Canada has had in recent years. None of the current Canadian pairs has yet reached their level.

pangtongfan · Mar 19, 2014

I thought Dube & Davison at their peak (2008) were a superior pair team to Sale & Pelletier at their peak. They simply faced a way stronger field than S&P had. They were basically the same team- great lifts, great pair elements, not huge tricks, very nice lines and positions, ok but not great skating skills, strongest quality was emotion and chemistry on ice and strong choreography. Except that they were much stronger solo jumpers than S&P being the only main difference. I dont think S&P had they continued in the years of COP would have stayed on top at all and would have found themselves eclipsed by Totmianina & Marinin, Shen & Zhao, and even later on the Zhangs, Savchenko & Szolkowy, and Pang & Tong. Granted the same is true of Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze had they continued, but due to the sheer beauty of their skating I hold them in higher regard in history than S&P.

sky_fly20 · Mar 19, 2014

S&P are just vile and one of the most deplorable pair in Figure Sktaing History
they are a perfect example of a mismatched team being held up by being given hyper inflated marks

Ryan O · Mar 19, 2014

Vile & deplorable? Isn't that going a bit far? They were given preferential treatment by the Canadian press and were certainly spoiled on some occasions, but you're making them sound like evil masterminds!

I don't agree that Dube & Davison were better than S&P. They had a few nice skates, but they were too inconsistent and often had major falls and errors. S&P almost always landed their throws, were solid on all pair elements, spins, lifts, etc. The only thing they sometimes had trouble with was Jamie's SBS jumps. One can argue that B&S were often better than S&P, but I just don't think D&D reached that level.

pangtongfan · Mar 19, 2014

S&P were probably consistently better than D&D, but I would watch D&D's performances from the 2008 worlds or their LP from 2010 Canadians before any skate I would rewatch for Sale & Pelletier. Putting aside that I am obviously not a S&P fan, I respected their technical ability, and could see how they scored highly in artistry/presentation, but I found them a bit boring, and their only ever signature program (Love Story) had some insanely easy choreography. Yes though D&D were much more prone to meltdown or semi meltdown, and had less longevity than S&P who went on to be a very strong pro team for several years as well. I cried at the end of D&D's 2008 worlds LP, it was that beautiful and moving, while S&P have NEVER done that for me, even back when I liked them in 99-2000.

Jamie's jumps were very inconsistent btw, and she cut down the risk for error by only attempting 2 for LP. It was disgraceful they won the GP final in 2000 and Worlds in 2001 missing almost every jump she attempted. Far worse and more undeserved victories than B&S over them in SLC but nobody said a thing. So to see the blowup over the SLC result was enough to make me want to puke whenever I saw S&P on TV. Such a harsh and cruel injustice for B&S, while S&P even in their only ever controversial defeat continued to be the pampered pets of the skating world. Like I said though, under COP they would do no better results wise than a team like Dube & Davison IMHO.

sky_fly20 · Mar 19, 2014

Ryan O said:
Vile & deplorable? Isn't that going a bit far? They were given preferential treatment by the Canadian press and were certainly spoiled on some occasions, but you're making them sound like evil masterminds!

Isn't that the connotation for S&P, vile, shameful and deplorable ?
their crocodile tears at SLC was something even her diva antics should be ashamed of and the way the NA media propped them up as the Pair sweethearts who will end a domination who were robbed was laughable, what was committed to the exquisite, wonderful and amazing pair of B/S will never be forgotten

hyperinflation · Mar 19, 2014

i don't really watch pairs all that much but i swear to god i'm not exaggerating when i say jessica fell every. single. time. i watched her skate

BlackPack · Mar 19, 2014

In 2002, I would have responded to the abovementioned responses with glee. There was so much support and hype for S&P. Now, it's long over. People barely mention them and they're certainly not on any "best" lists out there.

Whenever I thought of 2002 SLC, I felt pain. At the time, I defended B&S with as much as gusto as I could muster. I didn't think it was fair they got so much bashing for a minor error, when it is obvious that they are the superior pair. I still think that if S&P can toss the silver they didn't want, the silver should have gone to S&Z, the bronze to T&M, and the rest of the field should have been bumped up a place. It was a travesty and Speedy is much to blame. Sure, the judge was found (when have they not?) to be guilty of deal-making, but the fact is B&S did skate enough for the gold IMO.

Yeah, I never bought the story that S&P were sweethearts or in love for that matter. Just 2 people following their lust, acting out from their loins. All the whimpering and tantrums and for such limited talent. They're lucky they've found more romantic partners to put up with them. I like most skaters but they're ones I really don't like!

Ryan O · Mar 19, 2014

hyperinflation said:
i don't really watch pairs all that much but i swear to god i'm not exaggerating when i say jessica fell every. single. time. i watched her skate

Yeah, that's why I said above that D&D were too inconsistent to get to gold at the world level - they had trouble staying on their feet. They had a couple of sweet programs, though. There were also 2 other issues that seemed to cause problems in their partnership along with the falls & technical problems - 1. their off-ice romance & breakup seemed to leave some difficult feelings 2. when Bryce got injured and was out of action for a while, Jessica became impatient and moved on to Sebastien Wolfe instead.

They also had that scary incident at 4 Continents where Bryce's blade slashed Jessica's face. They came back from that, but when you put all of those factors together, there seemed to be a lot of things working against them towards the end of their partnership, so it makes sense that it eventually dissolved.

Anyway, this thread has gotten a bit off track with all of the S&P comments above. I just mentioned them on the previous page as an example of a pair who got divorced - I didn't expect it would lead to a re-hash of SLC 2002.

BlackPack · Mar 19, 2014

Ryan O said:
Yeah, that's why I said above that D&D were too inconsistent to get to gold at the world level - they had trouble staying on their feet. They had a couple of sweet programs, though. There were also 2 other issues that seemed to cause problems in their partnership along with the falls & technical problems - 1. their off-ice romance & breakup seemed to leave some difficult feelings 2. when Bryce got injured and was out of action for a while, Jessica became impatient and moved on to Sebastien Wolfe instead.

They also had that scary incident at 4 Continents where Bryce's blade slashed Jessica's face. They came back from that, but when you put all of those factors together, there seemed to be a lot of things working against them towards the end of their partnership, so it makes sense that it eventually dissolved.

Anyway, this thread has gotten a bit off track with all of the S&P comments above. I just mentioned them on the previous page as an example of a pair who got divorced - I didn't expect it would lead to a re-hash of SLC 2002.

Hey, don't feel bad. S&P's SLC antics are a part of the skating collective memory - painful and embarrassing to think about. It's so easy to trigger those memories. Any memory in fact, the fans on the skating forums have looooooong memories

Ryan O · Mar 19, 2014

Well anyway, the general point we were discussing on the previous page is that the main difference between being a single skater and a pairs or dance team is obviously the partnership aspect. It's not just about whether you have good skating skills and moves, but whether you have the personality and willingness to work closely with someone else for a long period of time and support the other person through ups & downs, injuries, etc. and do so under the glare of the media and the audience.

Several decades ago when I was a kid and first watched skating on t.v. with my parents at the Olympics, Worlds, etc. I just used to think about the cool moves and tricks that skating teams used to do and assumed they must do a lot of work on those to get them right. I didn't think at all about the interpersonal dynamics or challenges of working with another person under stressful conditions. It wasn't until I got older that I realized how much work goes into maintaining a skating partnership and that we are expecting these skaters to be able to do so at very young ages. There are many adults in their 40's, 50's, 60's, etc. who still don't know how to get along with another person (whether in a marriage or a business partnership in an office), and yet we expect teenagers and 20-something's to be able to do so in these skating partnerships!

snowflakebeautiful · Mar 19, 2014

Ryan O.: Exactly! And in the case of some partners, even younger than their teens! In that respect, it's really remarkable that pairs and teams stay together as long as they do sometimes....they're with each other a large chunk of time and under a lot of pressure. It makes me understand why certain skaters have said that in their dating relationships their significant other has to accept that their partner on ice comes first (until they stop competitively).

BlackPack · Mar 19, 2014

Yes, interpersonal dynamics is a lifelong thing. The more people you work with in an earlier age, the easier it becomes really. That is, if you have the basic ability to empathize with people.

However, these young skaters already started honing their interpersonal skills at a young age. It depends on the lifestyle too. A relatively isolated 60 year-old might not be able to handle people with care than a 20 year-old who's out there meeting all types since young.

The top teams have always overcome this. Their ambitions were greater forced them to deal with their partners. Platov didn't like Grishuk, but they managed to stay on top for many years.

Ryan O · Mar 19, 2014

snowflakebeautiful said:
Ryan O.: Exactly! And in the case of some partners, even younger than their teens! In that respect, it's really remarkable that pairs and teams stay together as long as they do sometimes....they're with each other a large chunk of time and under a lot of pressure. It makes me understand why certain skaters have said that in their dating relationships their significant other has to accept that their partner on ice comes first (until they stop competitively).

Yes, only a minority of skating partnerships last for a long time. Many break up within a few years, or sometimes even just a few months. (Thus the annual skating threads like "Which partnerships ended this year?")

Skating partnerships take up a huge amount of a skater's life and sometimes there is not a lot of room left for school/education, family, friends, other relationships, etc. That's probably also why as you said sometimes your skating partner becomes more important in a way than your actual significant other (and some skaters don't really have time for relationships).

Because your lives become so interconnected, it's probably why some skating partners use the comparison with marriage, whether they are actually married off-ice or not. A few months back before Piper Gilles received Canadian citizenship she did an interview with a reporter where she kind of joked that perhaps she should have gotten married to Paul Poirier so she could become a citizen faster. She said that when you are together every day, traveling to other countries, etc. you do end up feeling married to your partner.

Sam-Skwantch · Mar 19, 2014

What about Plushenko and Ashley Wagner? Give them some sassy tunes and watch 'em go!

s_parks · Mar 19, 2014

Sam-Skwantch said:
What about Plushenko and Ashley Wagner? Give them some sassy tunes and watch 'em go!

The sbs jumps would not work out. It'd be interesting to have a mirror pair though, not very common.

slider11 · Mar 19, 2014

Why did Poirier and Crone split? That was so sudden and they were on the rise. Same with Samuelson and Bates. Was it just loss of confidence once Emily accidentally sliced his achilles with her blade? Granted a pretty bad mistake but an accident, none the less. I must say, in Poirier's case, I am really liking what I see with Gilles. I'm really looking forward to seeing them in Worlds. Chock and Bates, not so much.

hyperinflation · Mar 19, 2014

lol i always got the feeling crone and poirier haaaaaaated each other, they literally looked physically repulsed by each other on the ice sometimes

chock and bates are far more promising than gilles and poirier though, they have far better skating skills and madison's a real dynamo even if evan's kind of a wet fish. besides, from a politicking point of view, assuming d/w retire this season, they become the new undisputed US #1, whereas g/p have weaver/poje "the ones who waited their turn" and paul/islam "baby v/m clones" to deal with

Imagining alternative partners in pairs/dance

pangtongfan

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hyperinflation

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Ryan O

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sky_fly20

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Ryan O

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sky_fly20

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hyperinflation

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BlackPack

Ryan O

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