Analyzing Sotnikova and Kim's footwork in the FS

drivingmissdaisy said:

Well if it's in Powerpoint it must be true

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Well, I have 10 websites that say the Powerpoint is true, and also Katarina Witt said Powerpoint is true. So Powerpoint must be true.:agree:

Therefore Yuna wins, I win and you're an idiot.

Procrastinator said:

I think this is exactly what happened. Adelina's two skates were very impressive at that moment in time (yet don't hold up when you scrutinize them with hindsight bias) while Yuna was underwhelming at the time though after repeated viewing her talent becomes much clearer. Either way, Adelina was, superficially at least, much crisper than Yuna in almost every sense. Compare Adios to even Les Mis last year; Yuna had gotten much less crisp, esp. in her jumps.

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Disagree. The "Kim might've won if she presented her programs more" argument is a b.s. excuse. Asada and Kostner both presented their programs throughout the season, and didn't score as many points as they deserved. The cards were stacked in favor of the Russian skaters.

I think Sotnikova had a very gusty, energetic skate, but I don't think she was "crisp" at all (or perhaps our definitions of crisp differ). I think her skating is raw, abandoned, and strong, but also rough. Her jumps don't flow with the rest of her choreography, and she flails about in the middle of her LP.

Despite hitting the snooze button throughout Adios Nonino and being perplexed at the music cut, I think it's a slap in the face to Kim to say that she chose an easy program or that her choreography wasn't complex enough. She's repeatedly stated that Adios is the hardest program she's skated and she thought of switching programs due to the difficulty. You might not like her presentation, but you can't say the difficulty of the choreography wasn't there. Every move flowed into one another, and there was no "blank periods" where Kim took a rest by skating around aimlessly (like Kostner did in Bolero and several other skaters in their LPs).

On a side note, I would hate to see skaters discouraged from opting for more nuanced and subtle programs in the future because they'll get dinged in favor of rowdy programs that bash the viewers over their heads with energy. From the feedback that Adios Nonino received, I'm afraid that might be the case.

qwertyskates said:

Well, I have 10 websites that say the Powerpoint is true, and also Katarina Witt said Powerpoint is true. So Powerpoint must be true.:agree:

Therefore Yuna wins, I win and you're an idiot.

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Well, I have 10 websites that say Powerpoint isn't true, and Tara Lipinski and Johnny Weir agree with me, so Powerpoint must not be true! Thus, Sotnikova wins, I win, and you're the bigger idiot.

I understand your points but calling people's opinions B.S. really is a fruitless endevour.

The "Kim might've won if she presented her programs more" argument is a b.s. excuse.

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That's great you were over the moon for her performance

Not everyone was. I think that is ok. No need to insult people over it.

lilahozi said:

Disagree. The "Kim might've won if she presented her programs more" argument is a b.s. excuse. Asada and Kostner both presented their programs throughout the season, and didn't score as many points as they deserved. The cards were stacked in favor of the Russian skaters.

I think Sotnikova had a very gusty, energetic skate, but I don't think she was "crisp" at all (or perhaps our definitions of crisp differ). I think her skating is raw, abandoned, and strong, but also rough. Her jumps don't flow with the rest of her choreography, and she flails about in the middle of her LP.

Despite hitting the snooze button throughout Adios Nonino and being perplexed at the music cut, I think it's a slap in the face to Kim to say that she chose an easy program or that her choreography wasn't complex enough. She's repeatedly stated that Adios is the hardest program she's skated and she thought of switching programs due to the difficulty. You might not like her presentation, but you can't say the difficulty of the choreography wasn't there. Every move flowed into one another, and there was no "blank periods" where Kim took a rest by skating around aimlessly (like Kostner did in Bolero and several other skaters in their LPs).

On a side note, I would hate to see skaters discouraged from opting for more nuanced and subtle programs in the future because they'll get dinged in favor of rowdy programs that bash the viewers over their heads with energy. From the feedback that Adios Nonino received, I'm afraid that might be the case.

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http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BiHS8YsCYAAinWl.jpg:medium

See the difference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2W9iAl6WKM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoJcD0-tHuQ

drivingmissdaisy said:

One of the main reasons Yuna lost is because her choreography wasn't complex enough. Don't you think if Yuna could do fewer than 6 back-crossovers to set up her 3-3 she would have? Adelina did two and more complex turns into the same 3-3. If you cannot see that you are either 1) not very smart 2) new to figure skating.

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You still don't understand what choreography is.

Sam-Skwantch said:

I understand your points but calling people's opinions B.S. really is a fruitless endevour.


That's great you were over the moon for her performance

Not everyone was. I think that is ok. No need to insult people over it.

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-Where did I (ever) express I was "over the moon for her performance"?
-I'm calling b.s. on posters' statements and giving reasons as to why. That's not the same as throwing personal insults at posters.

@cuon_alpinus - Idk why you're showing me ice coverage when I was originally talking about choreography.

lilahozi said:

You might not like her presentation, but you can't say the difficulty of the choreography wasn't there. Every move flowed into one another, and there was no "blank periods" where Kim took a rest by skating around aimlessly (like Kostner did in Bolero and several other skaters in their LPs).

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Not true. She is doing choreography when she isn't setting up for jumps, but there are 10-12 second periods in her program where she does nothing but crossovers. One example is the 3-3 set-up. She does 6 crossovers, stares blankly at the ice then does her (marvelous) combination. For those 12 seconds she does no turns, no arm movements, and really no facial expressions. There are a few other times in the program like this, but that is the most egregious example. To say she is constantly doing choreography during the program is just false. Adelina at least break up her crossovers with turns, which looks too busy or "flaily" to some but it is choreography and transitions.

lilahozi said:

@cuon_alpinus - Idk why you're showing me ice coverage when I was originally talking about choreography.

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You said that she had resting points, but I say Adelina Sotnikova had more resting points. You can see through those ice coverage. How does yuna have broader ice coverage if adelina was more active and vigorous. Distance=speed*time

^I said Kim DIDN'T have a great deal of resting points in her program...

drivingmissdaisy said:

Not true. She is doing choreography when she isn't setting up for jumps, but there are 10-12 second periods in her program where she does nothing but crossovers. One example is the 3-3 set-up. She does 6 crossovers, stares blankly at the ice then does her (marvelous) combination. For those 12 seconds she does no turns, no arm movements, and really no facial expressions. There are a few other times in the program like this, but that is the most egregious example. To say she is constantly doing choreography during the program is just false. Adelina at least break up her crossovers with turns, which looks too busy or "flaily" to some but it is choreography and transitions.

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I'm not sure I follow you here. Adelina does nothing in the first 10 seconds of her program but look at her own hand like Sarah Palin and go bow legged. Yuna performs 6 cross overs in 5 seconds (not 10). If you're trying to argue that Adelina is more athletic or her choreography is more complex because of this I think you fail. Yuna opens right away into a spin and does her bendy arm move while skating forward (not just standing in place)---which btw is an example of superior choreography because threads that move throughout the program to the music. Adelina takes something like 6 seconds longer to set up her triple triple and covers less ice.

I already posted once, but I also have another thing to say. Seriously, who cares? Who seriously watches Adelina's skate gets amused and wants to be like her. All figure skating girls want to be like Yuna. You can deny it but you know it's true. I think people who are trying to defend Sotnikova is just dumb or just really tired of Yuna, which I can understand if someone is so powerful that goes beyond the figure skating community. Go on Youtube and see how much more views Yuna's Silver Medal performance has than Adelina's Gold Medal. It's literally double the size of the latter. And don't even ask about the likes, I actually feel terrible for Adelina, but karma sucks (Adelina you should know better and should save yourself from further mockery because it's only getting worse from now especially if Yuna is denied her Second Gold Medal, it's almost like waiting for the finale of the show). If you think Adelina had better and harder choreography, I'm sorry that you have a bad taste. I'm pretty sure your biases will change if you actually knew Yuna. So guys, this thread is so dumb. Remember she got 7th with this same program at Worlds and beat top 5 who had no mistakes other than Mao. Also the SECOND HIGHEST SCORE IN THE WORLD? ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Yuna would knock her around any day during her Junior years.

chalk5 said:

I already posted once, but I also have another thing to say. Seriously, who cares? Who seriously watches Adelina's skate gets amused and wants to be like her. All figure skating girls want to be like Yuna. You can deny it but you know it's true. I think people who are trying to defend Sotnikova is just dumb or just really tired of Yuna, which I can understand if someone is so powerful that goes beyond the figure skating community. Go on Youtube and see how much more views Yuna's Silver Medal performance has than Adelina's Gold Medal. It's literally double the size of the latter. And don't even ask about the likes, I actually feel terrible for Adelina, but karma sucks (Adelina you should know better and should save yourself from further mockery because it's only getting worse from now especially if Yuna is denied her Second Gold Medal, it's almost like waiting for the finale of the show). If you think Adelina had better and harder choreography, I'm sorry that you have a bad taste. I'm pretty sure your biases will change if you actually knew Yuna. So guys, this thread is so dumb. Remember she got 7th with this same program at Worlds and beat top 5 who had no mistakes other than Mao. Also the SECOND HIGHEST SCORE IN THE WORLD? ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Yuna would knock her around any day during her Junior years.

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For someone like me not a fan of all these ladies, I find you amusing. Please continue. Haiz... Thanks God not all Yuna's fans are like you.

You have taken fandom to a whole new level! :agree:

PS: If I were a skater, would rather be Sasha Cohen. She's prettier in my eyes. And her costumes are pieces of art.

Thank you for your sarcasm. I'm wondering now what you know so much about figure skating if you were never a figure skater, but a novice fan. No hate to non-skaters but seriously, have some experience to back it up, since you are indeed rude to a lot of people on this forum.I guess if this makes you feel better, simply put, Yuna was the beauty and Adelina was the beast. Fair? ARE YOU HAPPY NOW?

chalk5 said:

Thank you for your sarcasm. I'm wondering now what you know so much about figure skating if you were never a figure skater, but a novice fan. No hate to non-skaters but seriously, have some experience to back it up, since you are indeed rude to a lot of people on this forum.I guess if this makes you feel better, simply put, Yuna was the beauty and Adelina was the beast. Fair? ARE YOU HAPPY NOW?

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Oh, I am rude because I would rather be Sasha Cohen. :yes:

The bold part shows it all. No wonder people are scared of Yuna's fans.

I know for sure who is rude here. Who is insulting anyone disagree with his/her biased comment about his/her idol?

You are not even in the same group as Skyfly.<---- for Skyfly I know she will think of this as an insult.

@Chalk5
Not everyone wants to be Yuna. I have seen countless videos of little Russian girls that say they want to grow up to be Yulia. At my rink some of the best young talent say they want to skate like Gracie and Ashley or Meryl. Why you think everyone wants to be Yuna stikes me as bit out of touch with others opinions. By that I mean some people may have a different feel for things. It's healthy and should be respected.

How many of Yuna's dedicated posters and YouTube commenters do you think skate? How many that signed the petition. Are there even 2 million FS in the world. How many in Korea? 5 rinks right. Lol

chalk5 said:

Thank you for your sarcasm. I'm wondering now what you know so much about figure skating if you were never a figure skater, but a novice fan. No hate to non-skaters but seriously, have some experience to back it up, since you are indeed rude to a lot of people on this forum.I guess if this makes you feel better, simply put, Yuna was the beauty and Adelina was the beast. Fair? ARE YOU HAPPY NOW?

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:scratch: Lol didn't know that you had to have done something in order to have criticism/have knowledge about it. I've never been president either so no experience there, does that mean I can't discuss/criticize what he's done/doing? I guess if that's what you think of "novice fan", maybe its a good thing for you that FS's popularity is dying. No more novice fan's opinion

To the commentors above. Yes, Yuna is great and so are others. I love Yulia, much more than Adelina. She is beautiful on ice and I feel that she is much more mannered and can outshine any upcoming Korean skaters in Pyeonchang. In fact, I want her to win. I guess I went overboard, but I just don't get it when some people just put the obvious aside and don't appreciate the living legend who is with us today. But I guess everyone has different taste and opinions. And yes @ Sam-Skwantch, it is the underdog story why everyone loves Yuna. Maybe not everything is about skating, but she is the first to come out of her country with no figure skating or even ice rinks to come where she is today. There is no way you can deny that beauty. I'm just saying that people pick up on Yuna Kim just from reading textbooks, magazines etc., and I hope that she becomes much more than just an Olympic Medalist, but someone who can still bring that underdog story to all of us. I'm pretty sure this is not the last time we will be seeing her, in fact, I feel there are much more to come than there has been.

chalk5 said:

To the commentors above. Yes, Yuna is great and so are others. I love Yulia, much more than Adelina. She is beautiful on ice and I feel that she is much more mannered and can outshine any upcoming Korean skaters in Pyeonchang. In fact, I want her to win. I guess I went overboard, but I just don't get it when some people just put the obvious aside and don't appreciate the living legend who is with us today. But I guess everyone has different taste and opinions. And yes @ Sam-Skwantch, it is the underdog story why everyone loves Yuna. Maybe not everything is about skating, but she is the first to come out of her country with no figure skating or even ice rinks to come where she is today. There is no way you can deny that beauty. I'm just saying that people pick up on Yuna Kim just from reading textbooks, magazines etc., and I hope that she becomes much more than just an Olympic Medalist, but someone who can still bring that underdog story to all of us. I'm pretty sure this is not the last time we will be seeing her, in fact, I feel there are much more to come than there has been.

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As I have stated before, I think Yuna's skate was beautiful and graceful and consistent, but I think she was a bit off that day. And I think judges also noticed that. I don't blame her. Every skater has their day off and on, it's normal and it's sport.

And I think her choreography this season did not help her at all. David Wilson also work with PChan, Javi and Hanyu this season, and all of their long programs recently are lackluster, despite their obvious talents. The same thing applies for Yuna. In my opinion, she should have tried out with other choreographers. David Wilson often applies the same style of choreography for all the skaters he had worked with.

When I google Yuna's review on her FS this season, the comments are quite diverse. So it's so obvious it's not as strong as her previous ones. People expect something more from the reigning Olympic champion, it's normal.

I don't like Adelina's style, but her choreography this season is not as bad as people think. It suits her sporty style. Just compare it to the Aguilera disaster that Tat gave her last season, her FS this year is pretty much decent. And her huge jumps help elevate the overall impression quite a bit.

Nevertheless, if CoP is purely about math, then it could have saved us a lot of scandal. The problem is it not. Those numbers are just a symbolic metaphor system, in which the judges express how much they were impressed by the skaters' performances. And they can always say it's subjective, that they like it this way, not that way. What can we do? The protocols couldn't prevent them from cheating as long as this anonymity continues.

I totally get your point of view. But the thing is the whole judging thing seems to screwed that I tend to go overboard to criticize Adelina. I think she would of won a respectful Silver, and a worthy bronze, but there are some things that need to be criticized about this whole figure skating thing in Sochi.

If you really watch Adios carefully, perhaps when you are having a gloomy day, the piece really tells you a story more than anything else. Even a little tightness in one of her jumps shows that she is human and for me it really kept me entertained because I felt I was skating with her. I feel that this is something Adelina needs to work on along with cleaning up her landings. She has years to mature, and I think this is where they cut her career short. And I'm sure of it.

Do you think Adelina could have performed Yuna's Adios with all the artistry and tightly packed moves and choreography? And do you think Yuna could of done the extra triple in Adelina's piece? I don't know, thinking about it makes me weird. They just don't seem right. I guess the point is that it's not about the exercise and it's not all about the artistry either as skating should be. But why was it all about the exercise in Sochi?

Would you rather see a beautiful slam dunk by Michael Jordan or growing and maturing College Star who has years to come before being comfortable in his own shoes?

Obviously, the whole judging was rigged. And I think it did not even matter that Yuna was not energetic enough. And you know that as well. This beauty will come only once in a lifetime, and I'm glad that we have this wonderful sport as an Olympic Sport, but I think we ruined it once again. I don't even know what the point of rigging the system if there was going to be a huge outcry from the world. I just wish that we can separate the politics from the beauty of this sport.

Adelina was definitely a top contender, and she has many years ahead of her to become a better skater in her own way. I just wish that this story could have gone beautifully for everyone but that is not the case. I wonder if Yuna was American this would happen. If not, it definitely has to do with playing games with the weaker federations. Which is not Olympics games should be.

IDK. There are many others who are still reviewing the skates over and over again, but at the end of the day, I'm going to watch those skates that matter to me as they are equally both beautiful and athletic. To me, Yuna's piece of true, and definitely was like a old wine that gets better within time. Perhaps your feeling will change about her piece as you get older, or even when you are watching in a different mood. When I watch her skate, I think about her life story to come where she was at Sochi. Her last competitive skate of her life. The end to her personal dynasty. I guess this is what you face when you are an avid fan who mesmerized you for years as I feel that I grew up with her. Her manners to the results of her skate was just legendary and really lived up to her name "Queen Yuna". It tells me that skating is only a part of her life, but also this is the truth of this world.

With all that said, I do have to disagree with you that Yuna was down. Look at her facial expression. They were not overdone like Adelina, but yet she told you a story. Even when there was a tightness in one of her jumps, I was so mesmerized that I felt that I was skating with her until her last pose. Her facial expressions are grandeur and elegant. This is something that Yuna was known for since her Junior years. Please, go ahead and watch that program again. Look at the beautiful choreography and transitions.