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Thread: Analyzing Sotnikova and Kim's footwork in the FS

  1. #1561
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    Did you even watch the video and look at the pic I posted? You image shows her after she's already rolled the skate around a bit. You can tell because her knees are very bent in your picture, which shows she has been on the ice a bit, longer than the pic I posted. But nice try
    If you are just going to argue for the sake of arguing, then you'll have to accept being ignored. The video was in slow motion, and the screen grab was the exact moment her blade touched the ice.

    Not that it matters to you in particular, since you have already long ago outed yourself as a troll.

  2. #1562
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ven View Post
    If you are just going to argue for the sake of arguing, then you'll have to accept being ignored. The video was in slow motion, and the screen grab was the exact moment her blade touched the ice.

    Not that it matters to you in particular, since you have already long ago outed yourself as a troll.
    You do realize if the knee is bent in her landing legs it's because of the force of the landing, which means it was straight when the pick touched and then bent. This is how it looked when her leg was straight and landing on the ice:

    http://postimg.org/image/lgb2cb15r/

    Again, your pic from "the moment her blade touched the ice":

    http://s1240.photobucket.com/user/To...d6729.png.html

    Your pic does show 99% rotation but it isn't where her blade touched the ice. Why can't you admit that you're wrong on this one thing? This is what I'm talking about when I say you Yuna fans ignore any evidence that questions what you're saying, and attack anyone as a troll who disagrees.

    At least this ends the discussion that Yuna and Adelina did the same number of triples.

  3. #1563
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ven View Post
    This is the exact moment her blade touches the ice. You can see the skate is 99% rotated, and her upper body is about 1/8 short.

    http://i1240.photobucket.com/albums/...ps498d6729.png
    Neither of these images are telling me much about any possible under-rotation since they don't provide the context (i.e. the direction of travel, etc.).

    Incidentally, this is my beef with a lot of the discussion: I don't think the rotation on landing for jumps is being analyzed correctly. I haven't gotten into the rotation of jumps much because I think the process is substantially more involved than what people do "easily" so to speak; the short explanation is that most people don't take into account the foreshortening effect of the camera zooming in from afar at roughly the same plane as the ice rink, which leads to a number of distortions, and human perception is very unreliable due to those effects. There's a more accurate way which I'll post about if I have time but it'll take a while. Anyway, maybe I should ask this in another part of the forums, but:

    1) Is the rotation at landing considered to be when any part of the skate (including the toe pick) touches the ice? Or the blade (include the blade immediately behind the toe pick)? Basically, what determines when to measure the skate's degree of rotation? (If there is disagreement about this, then what are the sources that give the correct consideration?)
    2) Is the line that the rotation is measured against considered to be a straight line from where the skater takes off, or are there any allowances for the skater "following the curve" in the air in terms of the tracing along the ice? (Of course, from physics, the skater will travel in a straight line, but I'm asking about the angle that the degree rotation is measured against.)
    3) Similarly, is the line that the rotation is measured against dependent on which foot, or something else like say the skater's center of mass? Intuition would say the edge foot, but I'm not sure on this so asking about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanshilar View Post
    Neither of these images are telling me much about any possible under-rotation since they don't provide the context (i.e. the direction of travel, etc.).
    My advice would be to watch the slow motion from the performance here (at 6:33): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgXKJvTVW9g

    You can see on the landing she skates into the jump right to left, lands facing to the left, rolls around and skates in the opposite direction she was facing when her toe pick touched. It wasn't more than 1/2 short but it was between 1/4 and 1/2 short, quite clearly.

  5. #1565
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanshilar View Post
    1) Is the rotation at landing considered to be when any part of the skate (including the toe pick) touches the ice? Or the blade (include the blade immediately behind the toe pick)? Basically, what determines when to measure the skate's degree of rotation? (If there is disagreement about this, then what are the sources that give the correct consideration?)
    2) Is the line that the rotation is measured against considered to be a straight line from where the skater takes off, or are there any allowances for the skater "following the curve" in the air in terms of the tracing along the ice? (Of course, from physics, the skater will travel in a straight line, but I'm asking about the angle that the degree rotation is measured against.)
    3) Similarly, is the line that the rotation is measured against dependent on which foot, or something else like say the skater's center of mass? Intuition would say the edge foot, but I'm not sure on this so asking about it.
    I don't know if this might help you.

    http://iceskatingresources.org/EvaluationOfJumps.html

    I'm not sure I understand all you're asking. It's because of my english, but Tracy Wilson during Vancouver Ladies Sp was explaining on the table with a skating boot, about the rotation and under rotation.
    The file it's too big so I can't post it here, but she says that in a reply you have to watch when the toe pick, not the full blade, touch the ice.
    If a skater completes the rotation, in a curve, with full blade (therefore I suppose is helped by the free leg as the articles I post it suggest), is under rotated.

  6. #1566
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanshilar View Post
    Neither of these images are telling me much about any possible under-rotation since they don't provide the context (i.e. the direction of travel, etc.).
    I agree. Photo and video "evidence" on under-rotations is rarely conclusive. It is usually accompanied by comments such as, "See?!!!" Um..no, I don't.

    1) Is the rotation at landing considered to be when any part of the skate (including the toe pick) touches the ice?
    It is my understanding that this is correct. What the technical specials actually call, though, is another question.

    Some skaters (Mirai) tend to "reach down" with their toe picks on landing, which causes under-rotation problems.
    Last edited by Mathman; 06-03-2014 at 08:12 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I agree. Photo and video "evidence" on under-rotations is rarely conclusive. It is usually accompanied by comments such as, "See?!!!" Um..no, I don't.
    This is not one of those times. I'm not saying the panel cheated to give Yuna full credit, but it was definitely a missed call.

  8. #1568
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    This is not one of those times. I'm not saying the panel cheated to give Yuna full credit, but it was definitely a missed call.
    Here's what I think. One of these days we will be able to bring technology to bear that can actually measure the number of degrees of rotation that skaters achieve. When that happens, I expect that people will be surprised to discover that every jump in figure skating is under-rotated. Then we can stop drawing pictures of protractors onto still video frames, saying, "look! look!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Here's what I think. One of these days we will be able to bring technology to bear that can actually measure the number of degrees of rotation that skaters achieve. When that happens, I expect that people will be surprised to discover that every jump in figure skating is under-rotated. Then we can stop drawing pictures of protractors onto still video frames, saying, "look! look!"
    I find it disingenuous that you would so easily jump on the "Adelina was overscored" bandwagon but when someone posts a video and a still frame showing Yuna clearly underrotated a jump all of a sudden the technology isn't good enough to make a determination. It sure seemed good enough when you claimed Adelina's 3T was <.

  10. #1570
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    I find it disingenuous that you would so easily jump on the "Adelina was overscored" bandwagon but when someone posts a video and a still frame showing Yuna clearly underrotated a jump all of a sudden the technology isn't good enough to make a determination. It sure seemed good enough when you claimed Adelina's 3T was <.
    Are you talking to me? I never said a peep about whether Adelina's 3T was under-rotated or not. Or whether Adelina deserved a level 3 or a level 4 on her step sequence. My whole point is quite the opposite. I do not have a sufficiently expert eye to determine these things (and, to tell the truth, I don't think that most of the impassioned posters on these threads do either).

    Is this is the picture that is supposed to convince me of something?

    http://postimg.org/image/lgb2cb15r/

    I cannot tell from this picture whether her skate is actually on the ice or not quite yet. I cannot tell whether or not she had already made contact with the ice a fraction of a second earlier. From this picture I cannot tell what the angle of her skate is (compared to what?) From this picture I cannot tell exactly what direction her blade was pointing at take-off. From this picture I cannot tell how many degrees of rotation she had achieved before the picture was taken.

    Frankly, I have little patience for these video wars where fans of one skater or another pretend to see evidence where non exists that their favorite skater is the bees knees and the other guy, yuk.

  11. #1571
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    Sorry MM, you're right. The picture is clearer if you watch the YouTube video; the landing is what is shown in the picture but if you haven't seen the video you wouldn't know where she took off. It is frustrating that people act like Yuna was scored overly harsh relative to Adelina, but the point is the panel missed calls like the one I posted that benefitted other skaters as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alba View Post
    I don't know if this might help you.

    http://iceskatingresources.org/EvaluationOfJumps.html

    I'm not sure I understand all you're asking. It's because of my english, but Tracy Wilson during Vancouver Ladies Sp was explaining on the table with a skating boot, about the rotation and under rotation.
    The file it's too big so I can't post it here, but she says that in a reply you have to watch when the toe pick, not the full blade, touch the ice.
    If a skater completes the rotation, in a curve, with full blade (therefore I suppose is helped by the free leg as the articles I post it suggest), is under rotated.
    Thanks for the link. I'm not sure if it's what's actually used in the judging criteria, though. For example, the link says "When performed correctly the arc of the entry edge does not skid and the skater does not pivot (pre-rotate) off the toe pick." However, discussed in another thread, apparently skidding is common (in the axel for example) and people are allowed to and do rotate up to 90 degrees on their toe pick prior to takeoff, so that they are facing nearly (but not quite) fully forward when their feet leave the ground. The link also says " The minimum rotation for a single axel is 1&1/4 rotation in the air. The minimum rotation for a double axel is 2&1/4 rotations in the air. The minimum rotation for a triple axel is 3&1/4 rotations in the air." However, from the pre-rotation thread, a skater's edge is allowed to be up to 90 degrees rotated (or more precisely as long as it's still traveling/skidding in the same direction, i.e. backward for non-axel and forward for axel), the toe pick can pivot up to slightly less than 90 degrees (or more precisely, as long as the skate is not facing fully forward on takeoff; if the edge only rotated 45 degrees for example this means the toe pick could pivot up to but less than 135 degrees), and the skate can be under-rotated by 90 degrees on landing. So minimum rotation for a single axel is actually 3/4 rotation not the 1 1/4 rotation that the link says, for a double axel it's actually 1 3/4 rotation not the 2 1/4 rotation that the link says, etc. For the flip, it says "It is a major error for a skater to pivot to forward on the toe pick just before lifting off into the air." but a good number of skaters do pivot on the toe pick to end up facing roughly (but not quite) forward by the time the toe pick leaves the ice.

    My point is I don't know if the link describes the "ideal" jumping positions or what not, but I'm not sure if the judging actually considers the points described. For example, a number of skaters do put their weight on their toe pick foot (in fact, put the entire blade down) when they jump -- is there actually a penalty for this in the GOE? Etc. And of course, apparently pivoting off the toe pick is not only allowed but strongly encouraged for multi-rotation jumps, to the extent that pretty much everyone is facing forward when they jump, with exceptions for a few skaters/jumps. Is it considered in the GOEs or landing rotation when a skater takes off while still facing backward rather than using the full "allowed" amount of pre-rotation? While the link pretty much simply says pre-rotation is wrong.

  13. #1573
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    ^ There is a figure skating coach named Trevor Laak who has achieved a certain amount of notoriety by addressing these questions head on. His "jump secrets" have attracted controversy, but basically he says, forget the rule book, watch what world champions actually do, and you will see that severe pre-rotation is a necessary part of proper jump technique. If you (a coach) do not teach this to your students, then you are shortchanging them and they will never be able to compete with the elite skaters who know the tricks. A quad should never have more than 3.25 revolutions -- if you do more, you are not doing it right.

    I am not advocating this guy's views, but here is his web site if you want to explore them.

    http://www.skatingjumpsecrets.com
    Last edited by Mathman; 06-04-2014 at 07:38 PM.

  14. #1574
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanshilar View Post
    My point is I don't know if the link describes the "ideal" jumping positions or what not, but I'm not sure if the judging actually considers the points described. For example, a number of skaters do put their weight on their toe pick foot (in fact, put the entire blade down) when they jump -- is there actually a penalty for this in the GOE? Etc. And of course, apparently pivoting off the toe pick is not only allowed but strongly encouraged for multi-rotation jumps, to the extent that pretty much everyone is facing forward when they jump, with exceptions for a few skaters/jumps. Is it considered in the GOEs or landing rotation when a skater takes off while still facing backward rather than using the full "allowed" amount of pre-rotation? While the link pretty much simply says pre-rotation is wrong.
    I know what you mean but from my experience I haven't been able to find someone who can describes the "ideal" jumping positions etc.
    I mean there are a lot of links, videos, experts, skaters, coaches etc. who writes about it but the confusing thing for me is that not all of them do say the same thing.

    So this does makes me wonder. If people who are involved with this sport do not all agree which is the best way of a take-off, skidding, landing, pre-rotation, poisiton etc., how could the judges be?

  15. #1575
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    ^ There is a figure skating coach named Trevor Laak who has achieved a certain amount of notoriety by addressing these questions head on. His "jump secrets" have attracted controversy, but basically he says, forget the rule book, watch what world champions actually do, and you will see that severe pre-rotation is a necessary part of proper jump technique. If you (a coach) do not teach this to your students, then you are shortchanging them and they will never be able to compete with the elite skaters who know the tricks. A quad should never have more than 3.25 revolutions -- if you do more, you are not doing it right.

    I am not advocating this guy's views, but here is his web site if you want to explore them.

    http://www.skatingjumpsecrets.com
    He's right. And the other coaches on his website icoachskating.com agree. They are some of the best in the world.

    All good coaches (or skaters) who use video know this.

    It's not worth it to care what people on the sidelines think.

    The judges and technical specialists know this as well.

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