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Thread: Analyzing Sotnikova and Kim's footwork in the FS

  1. #1621
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    The takeoff is always taken into consideration. That's why skaters' triple toe loops are downgraded when they do toe axels. Its also why it is so very difficult to get credit for a triple loop as the second jump in a combination-the mechanics of the jump lead to it being excessively pre-rotated, on average. Any slight ur on landing and the jump is downgraded.

    The following is from the Technical Panel Handbook

    http://static.isu.org/media/104198/t...n_13-07-18.pdf
    You 100% misunderstood what I wrote.

    Congratulations.

    When examining a cheated takeoff. The panel doesn't look at the landing and say (it was overrotated, so just give her the jump she still got x.y rotations in the air).

    When examining the cheated landing, the don't look at the take off and say (she took off early, just give her the jump cause she got x.y rotations in the air).

    If the take off is too far, the jump is UR regardless of the landing.

    If the landing is short, the jump is UR regardless of the take off.

    When examining one or the other, the other end is not examined and used to justify or debunk the call. They are examined in isolation of each other.

    Hope that clears that up.

    I'm more than aware the take off is checked it it looks cheated, and how it is checked. I just explained all this up thread.

  2. #1622
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    Why do people constantly attack others and not respond to the content in the posts instead.

    Character Assassination is not a substitute for substance...

  3. #1623
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Fwiw, just because people aren't saying anything doesn't mean they accept the result. Some just chose to not invest precious time to do so. You know what they say about insanity....

  4. #1624
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Components View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    The landing is directly related to where the takeoff is. Everything exists within a circle. Yu-Na's takeoff point is starting far earlier, thus her "acceptable landing point" is different than someone else who completely pre-rotates the jump.
    Incorrect.

    The landing is directly related to the direction of travel. That is how the judges know a UR jump from a non-UR jump, by measuring the angle at which the skate comes into contact with the ice on landing relative to the direction in which the jump is traveling.
    No it is not incorrect. If you are only looking at the direction of travel then you are NOT assessing the jump correctly. Spinning around on your toepick during the takeoff makes a jump easier. It doesn't matter that you were traveling in a certain direction when the jump started, the fact is that you didn't leave the ice until a certain point. A jump means going up into the air. The direction of travel can also be anywhere. You set set-up for a Loop jump going "backwards", for example, and then ride the edge and curve around before actually pressing into the ice for the takeoff (where the pre-rotation will happen).

    Plus, as I've said before, a Lutz with "ideal" entry curves away from the direction of a rotation. You stated before in your picture that Yu-Na's Lutz takeoff was parallel to the camera - that is false. She does the Lutz with ideal technique and thus her blade curves away from the camera. If you've ever actually done these jumps before then you would know it's much harder to do it with the correct technique.

    Again, everything in skating exists within a circle and a jump means going up into the air. You seem to think skating exists as a linear function and jump entries are always the same for any given jump. That's not true. Measuring the rotation of a jump MUST take into consideration the entirety of the takeoff. Someone who doesn't turn to forwards on their toepick is factually getting more rotation in the air and make the jump more difficult. You can not debate this point. Therefore, if you think logically and objectively, the conclusion is pretty obvious. When someone is getting 2.5+ rotations in the air and you're trying to call it as underrotated, and someone else is getting 2.25 rotations (or less even, since you're advocating that extra pre-rotation on the takeoff doesn't matter) and you're calling that latter jump as "sufficient", then there is clearly a problem.

    Imagine we are both competing in a timed marathon that is 5 miles long. I begin the marathon at the actual start of the 5 miles and you are allowed to start 1 mile ahead of me (thus making it so you only have to run 4 miles). It takes me 60 minutes to run it. It takes you 55 minutes. Did you "do better" than me, just because measuring solely the end result said that it only took you 55 minutes as opposed to 60 for me? No, of course not. I did more work than you, ran more miles than you, and comparatively ran my miles faster than you did.

  5. #1625
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    No it is not incorrect. If you are only looking at the direction of travel then you are NOT assessing the jump correctly. Spinning around on your toepick during the takeoff makes a jump easier. It doesn't matter that you were traveling in a certain direction when the jump started, the fact is that you didn't leave the ice until a certain point. A jump means going up into the air. The direction of travel can also be anywhere. You set set-up for a Loop jump going "backwards", for example, and then ride the edge and curve around before actually pressing into the ice for the takeoff (where the pre-rotation will happen).

    Plus, as I've said before, a Lutz with "ideal" entry curves away from the direction of a rotation. You stated before in your picture that Yu-Na's Lutz takeoff was parallel to the camera - that is false. She does the Lutz with ideal technique and thus her blade curves away from the camera. If you've ever actually done these jumps before then you would know it's much harder to do it with the correct technique.

    Again, everything in skating exists within a circle and a jump means going up into the air. You seem to think skating exists as a linear function and jump entries are always the same for any given jump. That's not true. Measuring the rotation of a jump MUST take into consideration the entirety of the takeoff. Someone who doesn't turn to forwards on their toepick is factually getting more rotation in the air and make the jump more difficult. You can not debate this point. Therefore, if you think logically and objectively, the conclusion is pretty obvious. When someone is getting 2.5+ rotations in the air and you're trying to call it as underrotated, and someone else is getting 2.25 rotations (or less even, since you're advocating that extra pre-rotation on the takeoff doesn't matter) and you're calling that latter jump as "sufficient", then there is clearly a problem.

    Imagine we are both competing in a timed marathon that is 5 miles long. I begin the marathon at the actual start of the 5 miles and you are allowed to start 1 mile ahead of me (thus making it so you only have to run 4 miles). It takes me 60 minutes to run it. It takes you 55 minutes. Did you "do better" than me, just because measuring solely the end result said that it only took you 55 minutes as opposed to 60 for me? No, of course not. I did more work than you, ran more miles than you, and comparatively ran my miles faster than you did.
    You can try as many bad analogies as you want, but that won't make it any less invalid as its always been.

    And don't misinterpret what I said. I've clarified at least 2-3 times what I meant when I said the take-off doesn't matter when evaluating the landing.

    The jump only needs either a take-off that is too pre-rotated or a landing that is too short to be deemed UR. One or the other is all that is needed.

    Pre-rotating less does not give the skater the right to UR too much and still get credited a full triple. That's like saying they can take-off straight backwards and land forwards and do a three turn, and get credit for the full triple. It's literally, exactly, what you're saying.

    The direction of travel is the base by which the angles (on the take-off and landing, are compared to determine if the landing was short on any end. If your landing is short, it doesn't matter how much you pre-rotate, the jump is going to get UR'd. This is reliable because the skate travels in a straight line in the air, not a curve as you somewhat inferred upthread.

    Both Sotnikova nad Kim got away with them (Kim moreso, actually). The UR on Sotnikova's combination was not any worse than Yuna's second Lutz, and probably wasn't even as severe when you look at the HD video in slow motion of both jumps..

    The judges gave preferential treatment to both skaters. Kim got lucky that she is as reputable as she is. Any other skater would have gotten at least 2-3 URs in that program as she performed it (there is reason to question at least 4 of her landings). Kexin from China got murdered, for example. The judges gave her some help. Without it, if her jumps had actualy been fairly judged, she likely would have gotten a bronze medal because those errors would have made it quite hard for her to stay ahead of Kostner in the overall standings.

    I don't care what your opinion is. I care what the rules are and whether or not the jumps in question were on the right/wrong edge or fully rotated based on the rules. That Lutz wasn't, and she has a few other jumps that were more than questionable (at least 1 other that was certainly short, with two extremely close calls).

    The way she performed doesn't surprised me at all. She looked tired and spent the whole time she was there, and she was muscling some of her jumps visibly to try to get them around.

  6. #1626
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Therefore, if you think logically and objectively, the conclusion is pretty obvious. When someone is getting 2.5+ rotations in the air and you're trying to call it as underrotated, and someone else is getting 2.25 rotations (or less even, since you're advocating that extra pre-rotation on the takeoff doesn't matter) and you're calling that latter jump as "sufficient", then there is clearly a problem.
    So what's the point of having rules that you can't prerotate more than half, and you have to be within 1/4 turn on the landing? You interpretation does not support these at all. Do you even see the inconsistency of what your saying, which is "just rotate 2.25 times any way you can"?

  7. #1627
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    So what's the point of having rules that you can't prerotate more than half, and you have to be within 1/4 turn on the landing? You interpretation does not support these at all. Do you even see the inconsistency of what your saying, which is "just rotate 2.25 times any way you can"?
    The rule SUGGESTS 2.25 revolutions, and the judges did NOT ding UR for Yuna's jump because they know better than you to reward a skater that rotates more than 2.25 revolutions, which is the minimum revolutions ISU suggests. It's idiotic to think someone would argue about murdering a skater with UR when in fact he/she rotated more than the requirement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Components View Post
    Why do people constantly attack others and not respond to the content in the posts instead.

    Character Assassination is not a substitute for substance...
    and Proxy posting is prohibited in GS and look where you are

  8. #1628
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melon View Post
    The rule SUGGESTS 2.25 revolutions, and the judges did NOT ding UR for Yuna's jump because they know better than you to reward a skater that rotates more than 2.25 revolutions, which is the minimum revolutions ISU suggests. It's idiotic to think someone would argue about murdering a skater with UR when in fact he/she rotated more than the requirement.
    I can't believe we are arguing about this. There IS NO REQUIREMENT that a jump rotates 2.25. There IS A REQUIREMENT that it doesn't prerotate more than half (Yuna passes this with flying colors) AND that it is within 1/4 of rotation on the landing (Yuna does not pass this). I'm not sure how this is confusing you.

  9. #1629
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    I can't believe we are arguing about this. There IS NO REQUIREMENT that a jump rotates 2.25. There IS A REQUIREMENT that it doesn't prerotate more than half (Yuna passes this with flying colors) AND that it is within 1/4 of rotation on the landing (Yuna does not pass this). I'm not sure how this is confusing you.
    It's SIMPLE MATH. 3 - (MAXIMUM Pre-rotation) 1/2 - (MAXIMUM LANDING) 1/4 = 2.25 REVOLUTIONS in the air. Of course it's not LITERAL, but it's THERE if you just THINK a little bit which you REFUSE to. And to think a skater to receive UR when rotating MORE than 2.25 is RIDICULOUS. I'M not sure how this is confusing you.

  10. #1630
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    I can't believe we are arguing about this. There IS NO REQUIREMENT that a jump rotates 2.25. There IS A REQUIREMENT that it doesn't prerotate more than half (Yuna passes this with flying colors) AND that it is within 1/4 of rotation on the landing (Yuna does not pass this). I'm not sure how this is confusing you.
    They're doing that thing where they take the same failed argument, reword it, and try it again to see if it works. Lol...

  11. #1631
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    Quote Originally Posted by Components View Post
    I don't care what your opinion is. I care what the rules are and whether or not the jumps in question were on the right/wrong edge or fully rotated based on the rules.
    Do you, really? It appears like you care about whether or not the jumps in question were on the right/wrong edge or fully rotated depending on the skater being discussed.

    You only ever acknowledge Sotnikova's UR when countering about Kim's second lutz. You refer generally to both skaters having gotten away with calls but you focus on specifics and details for Kim, whereas you have rarely ever specific acknowledged Sotnikova's non-calls on the edge of the lutz or footwork levels. You have ignored whatever is inconvenient to your argument, and emphasized and exaggerated whatever is convenient.

    You have not applied the same level of scrutiny to other skaters, including Sotnikova, that you have to Kim. It's like you're wearing a special pair of goggles that only allows you to "see" and allege flaws in Kim's skating. You are the equivalent of Kim supporters who--incorrectly--refuse to give credit to Sotnikova for anything.

    You claim you care about fair criticism but your criticisms have not appeared so. Let's look at the wording from your previous post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Components View Post
    Also, I've never been dismissive of Sotnikova's UR. I've only been interested in knowing why you people continuously harp on it while ignoring Yuna's URs that she clearly got away with.
    Interesting how you reserve the wording "clearly got away with" for Kim, and not specifically Sotnikova. Basically, you say that Sotnikova has a UR; Kim got away with hers. Didn't Sotnikova "clearly get away with" a UR? It's a little detail in wording, but it says a lot about bias. Yes, I'm sure you meant nothing by that, because you claim that you just care about the rules and fair criticism. However, truly fair posters don't need to proclaim their objectivity and fairness.

    Blades of Passion has been consistent over the years on how he sees pre-rotation and underrotation. It is not something he fabricated after the Sochi Olympics to defend Kim and only Kim. Whereas it appeared from your posts that you selectively target certain skaters on whether they received the "right" calls.

    I have no problem with someone who thinks Sotnikova's victory is justified in of itself. gkelly is a great example of someone who has consistently and objectively justified the overall judging (and implicitly Sotnikova's win), defended the rules, offered legitimate explanations for non-calls, without ever applying an uneven level of scrutiny to any one skater. The same is not true of your posts.

  12. #1632
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    This conversation has run its course for me. We're all repeating ourselves at this point. No more push notifications, please 🙏

  13. #1633
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaylee View Post
    You only ever acknowledge Sotnikova's UR when countering about Kim's second lutz. You refer generally to both skaters having gotten away with calls but you focus on specifics and details for Kim, whereas you have rarely ever specific acknowledged Sotnikova's non-calls on the edge of the lutz or footwork levels.
    Well we are talking about the < at the moment. The assertion is that Adelina underrotated her 3T but Yuna didn't her 3Lz. We can't talk about everything at once. If Adelina was <, and I think it was, Yuna's was also <, which I also think it was. It failed the rule that you cannot turn more than 1/4 on the ice, which Adelina's also failed. If you want to believe that this rule doesn't apply when a jump is not prerotated as much as it can be, then you may. From my perspective, if there were to be exceptions to the 1/4 rule they could have been included, but they were not. Again, my perspective is that the rule is designed to address jumps with "hooked" landings. If you are ok with a "hooked" landing and think it's good technique when a skater does it when they don't prerotate much, then that is what you believe. I don't see how one would think a jump landed forward would be considered clean, but pre-rotating 1/4 turn and landing forward perfectly achieves the 2.25 revolutions that BoP and others thinks makes an acceptable jump.

    At the end of the day, the SP panel of non-Russian judges and the LP panel that leaned slightly pro-Russian had Adelina almost on par with or ahead of Yuna on PCS and GOE. I'm not sure where you think that panel, especially the SP panel, would view Adelina favorably for any reason other than her skating, but if you think the composition of that SP panel is in any way problematic then it will be impossible to ever create a FS judging panel that will please you. (Well maybe you wish the panel from South Koreans nationals were judging, but that isn't going to happen.)

  14. #1634
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilahozi View Post
    Nah, drivingmissdaisy has flip-flopped her stance so much to suit her pro-Sotnikova arguments (and has been called out on it several times) that it makes one's head spin.
    What I read on this board:
    #1. People why reply about Sotnikova's UR say that Yuna had UR as well but judges chose not to be strict to both girls. Fair game to me.
    #2. People who say that Sotnikova had UR but Yuna didn't. In case with her the rule of 1/4 landing is not in apply because it is not.

    Clear as a day who is flip-flopping. Personal attacks on multiple posters doesn't help.

  15. #1635
    Love popcorn, hate horendous costumes Meoima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alain View Post
    What I read on this board:
    #1. People why reply about Sotnikova's UR say that Yuna had UR as well but judges chose not to be strict to both girls. Fair game to me.
    #2. People who say that Sotnikova had UR but Yuna didn't. In case with her the rule of 1/4 landing is not in apply because it is not.
    Clear as a day who is flip-flopping. Personal attacks on multiple posters doesn't help.
    technically the same with what I see. Neither fan of both ladies.

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