Page 110 of 114 FirstFirst ... 10 60 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 LastLast
Results 1,636 to 1,650 of 1710

Thread: Analyzing Sotnikova and Kim's footwork in the FS

  1. #1636
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    121
    Quote Originally Posted by Components View Post
    Polina UR'd a Toe Loop on the back half of her combination. She didn't fall on it, it was deemed UR. The Jump she UR'd and fell was, IIRC, a Triple Flip, and that wasn't even in the same program. So I'm not going to go on about this part of your post.
    So you're talking about her lutz-toe loop combo in the short program? But for that jump she was clearly pre-rotating; in fact, from the replay that focused on her skates (which was almost head-on with her line of travel), it seems like she actually pre-rotated past directly forward (so it should have been downgraded to a toe-axel), and she only did 2 rotations in the air, less than the 2 1/4 minimum. I was looking for lutz/flip jumps since those seem to be the ones where some skaters are still facing the backward half on takeoff. If anything, the lutz immediately preceding that jump that Polina did also looks fairly underrotated (especially when looking at the replay which focuses on the skates) but only the toe loop was called for underrotation, which would lead credence to less pre-rotation meaning more leeway on underrotation; her skates are still pointing in the backward half when she takes off for that jump. (Or it could just be within the leeway that judges give for underrotations.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Components View Post
    Yes, and no.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbeq_M8Lgtg

    ^- That should answer your question.

    Also see: http://icoachskating.com/comparing-t...s-trevor-laak/

    I think it will do good to explain the differences between the two take-off techniques and why most women (certainly more than men) pivot further than men, especially on this jump.

    That's my "No," cause you're trying to make a definitive correlation between the two that would lead one to believe that if you pivot all the way it means you flutzed (not saying you're saying that, but it sort of infurs such).

    My "Yes" is cause it is easier to pivot all the way on a Flutz because it is more easily possible to open the hip which unblocks the lower body, allowing it to rotate more easily. So yea, a skater with a Flutz will likely rotate all the way more often, which is why I said Lutzes tend to pivot less than most other jumps.
    So if I understand the link correctly, it's what you were talking about regarding the "power take-off" i.e. one of the techniques for the lutz gives more power (i.e. height) but results in less pre-rotation. It's a tradeoff then (more height but then the skater has more rotation that needs to be done in the air) so it will depend on the strengths of each skater as to which technique they should use (more power but more in-the-air rotation needed to complete the jump, or less power but less in-the-air rotation needed). Is that an accurate summary? Would answer my #1 and #2, though not #3 (skaters who put the full blade down on their toe pick foot, but it looks like the third guy in the lutz video does it that way and Trevor didn't seem to think there's anything wrong with that).

    Quote Originally Posted by jaylee View Post
    If you review the protocols of every competition and which jumps got UR, some technical specialists DO give leeway on the landing of a jump if the skater pre-rotates less, and give less leeway on the landing of a jump when the skater pre-rotated the jump more. It's not perfectly consistent but the evidence is there to support what Blades of Passion has been saying.
    I guess something along these lines was more what I was expecting. Now the rules (since everyone seems to be so fond of appealing to them) says "The quarter and half mark of landing are the border lines to identify cheated jumps" (although it doesn't specify where this is measured from). It also says "In all doubtful cases the Technical Panel should act to the benefit of the skater" (without specifying what this means). Although internet pundits use video freeze frames for evidence (almost always incorrectly from what I've seen), I remember something about how the judges don't or there are limits on how they use slow-motion replay (as opposed to video running in real-time), but too lazy to look it up right now. At any rate, I would expect something along the lines of, anything within (for example) 15 degrees of the allowed 90 degrees of underrotation will usually not be called as being underrotated, and that this may vary by jump, because the judges are looking at video in real-time and/or with a limited camera angle (i.e. the available camera angle makes underrotation difficult to determine) and they give benefit of the doubt. In short, they call UR if it's clearly UR, but the issue for the internet is quantifying what "clearly UR" means when people are throwing video screen grabs around.

    I'm not sure why you single out Mao, she has URs that don't get called as well. Although the one that comes to mind directly is her triple axel and she obviously doesn't take the full pre-rotation allowance on that one -- so perhaps more UR is allowable for that jump. At this point, nobody has pointed to any evidence for this or even data about this, instead all I've seen is internet statements of position (i.e. "this is how it is and I'm right and you're wrong) without any sort of support.

    As an aside, I should point out that a lot of the discussion here relies on agreed-upon interpretation of the rules. For example, Dorispulaski pointed out what the rules state on cheated (overly pre-rotated) takeoffs, but I'm not aware of any rule that says that "clear forward" is defined as if the skate rotates past directly forward (i.e. the direction of travel); that's just based on our internet interpretation. Not that it's incorrect, but some posters seem to like say "interpretation" as the catch-all for "I'm right and you're wrong".

    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra View Post
    Technical errors are not subjective, they are 100% mathematically provable.
    I'd be more convinced if somebody actually did the math, but a video of screen grabs and made-up numbers isn't math -- it's putting images and made-up numbers into a video.

    Quote Originally Posted by Components View Post
    The UR on Sotnikova's combination was not any worse than Yuna's second Lutz, and probably wasn't even as severe when you look at the HD video in slow motion of both jumps.
    So. What would you be willing to bet on this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Components View Post
    Any other skater would have gotten at least 2-3 URs in that program as she performed it (there is reason to question at least 4 of her landings). Kexin from China got murdered, for example.
    Admittedly I haven't kept up with the internet controversy on this, but what are those 4 jumps? (Similarly, other than Adelina's 3T in her lutz combo and the 2Lo stepout, I'm not aware of internet controversy about any of her other jumps. Most of what I've heard about Yuna is the solo 3Lz.)

    Also, I looked at Kexin's free skate -- pretty much every jump seems to have been underrotated, even the ones that weren't called for it. I don't know why she and her coach don't work more on fully rotating her jumps.

  2. #1637
    Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    156

    Last post on the matter.

    The tradeoff of the power takeoff is that if you are a slower rotator you run the risk of UR. The extra height is used to give more time to rotate the jump. Quads rarely use that technique because it slows down the time it takes to pull into the jump for most skaters. It's all about efficiency. Yuna can do this cause she rotates slower (or rather, has a slower snap into her rotations), which demands more airtime i.e. more pop on the take off. She needs the extra time to get the jump collected, cause you kind of have to get to a certain position in the jump and in the air before you can snap them, otherwise you risk the jump going off kilter/thrown off its axis which is very dangerous and an inefficient way to rotate them.

    Still, that technique doesn't allow a skater to UR the landing and get away with it. Many elite skaters who tried it would like to disagree with the stuff being peddled in this thread, since they've done what is said to be "okay" here and suffered the calls for it.

    In Yuna's case it's not necessarily the rotating speed itself, but the fact that she took a bit long[er] to get into her rotations (longer than normal and her jumps are often already walking the line without that to mess with them). You can see the delay in real-time. When that happens, it almost always has an impact on the jumps full rotation because the skater can't magically rotate at a higher optimal speed than they usually do, she is snapping into her optimal rotations LATER (meaning that extra time the take-off gave her was eaten up to some extent by her taking longer to get to her optimal rotation speed in-air), and with the way she lands her jumps (usually with a hook, albeit an "acceptable" hook) normally it was already bound to cause an issue on that landing. That isn't necessarily surprising, since the jump was in the back half of the program and she was likely tiring at that point. She was clearly drained at the end of the performance and didn't look as energetic as usual in Sochi.

    The jump landed short and that's pretty much that. The video available is just too good to try to refute it, which is why others have resorted to trying to say her use of a power take-off gives her the right to UR the jump and not get called on it, which is patently false as many men's skaters (and a few other women) would like their points back if that was the case. Lol.

    I'm willing to bet $500 on the rotation debate between the two jumps. They are very similar in degree of UR. I'd settle for a pair of MK Phantoms, though, if you prefer. I have both programs on my PC and have seen both landings at quarter speed. The degree of UR on the Toe Loop back half and Yuna's second Lutz is pretty much the same - that's the only reason why some people (like myself) took exception to the lopsided way in which that jump was attacked, compared to Yuna's obvious UR. However, I'm flabbergasted that I get attacked for being "biased" while people are breaking their fingers trying to find an acceptable explanation (none exists) to excuse the UR on that Lutz, which was visible in real-time, while complaining that an almost identical UR from another skater was not called as well.

    The judges had enough chances to ding Yuna Kim in that FS, to the point that a case can be made for her finishing in 3rd place. If they were out to get her that badly, they'd have done it, and it would have been 100% defendable.

    The problem with Kexin's situation is that Murakami followed her and got away with a number of URs. Reputation matters. A number of people noticed it and weren't shy about it. This "problem" is bigger than Adelina and Yuna, or Mao, or Kostner, or Wagner, or whatever other "top" skater someone wants to throw in. If Kexin URs, the judges won't hesitate to murder her, but the same panel of judges were content with letting a slew of more reputable skaters UR without a deduction (some were called but the GOEs were limited (sometimes negative), but Sotnikova and Yuna got too much GOE for those jumps, both of them).

    Adelina's other jumps aren't up for debate because she lands most of them almost straight backwards. There isn't anything to review. The 2Lo was over rotated almost half a revolution. It wasn't two footed (the take-off was clean, just off-axis), so I'm not sure where that came from. She stepped out of it. If she had rotated another quarter rotation she ran the risk of the technical panel calling it a triple and eliminating the entire jump pass. That would have given Kim the win as she would have lost over 8 points on that jump pass in that situation. Also, If Kim had done a +2 GOE Triple Loop in her program, she could have won the title outright.

    We discussed Yuna other [allegedly UR] jumps up thread. Refer to those posts. There is video available, as well. As for your other technical question regarding the explanation of the entrances that I gave upthread, all that information is upthread and I'm not really interested in entertaining speculation, guessing, or "winging it" of any sorts. There is no full blade jumping in that video. I thought we went over this earlier in the thread - how the skate reacts with the ice on a jump take-off. What you're seeing is a figment of your imagination. It does not exist, so stop perpetuating it. Saying it 1,000x won't make it any less false than it is. No one jumps like that, except maybe newbies doing half-jumps or small singles with no speed or power. I don't care what crafty faux screen caps you come up with, look at a jump take-off in motion and you'll clearly see no one is jumping off the rocker of their skate the way you imply.

    In no situation is it proper to UR more than 1/4 turn on the landing and call it a clean jump (regardless of who is skating, and in my mind the rules apply equally to EVERYONE - they both should have gotten a UR and GOE deductions for the errors). It does not matter if you use more or less pivot on the take-off. More women than men use the full pivot, but even men who typically jump the way Yuna does [with a lower amount of pivot in the skate on take-off] will get a UR if they land over a quarter under. The only precedent for that being ignored is: A.) She's Yuna Kim, and B.) The judges ignored Sotnikova's, so at least ignoring Kim's made it a little more fair for her from a TES point of view. If both were deducted, Sotnikova would have still won (she would have won with the 'e' call on her Lutz as well, easily) and Kim would have been at risk for dropping to third, under Kostner (who also received, IMO, generous GOEs especially on her spins).

    We did the math. It's just that people are smoke screening it with their opinions and preferences, personal attack, name calling, and filibusters.

    There is no need to continue discussing the matter if it's going to continue to be toxic. Do you have any math to share?
    Last edited by Components; 07-07-2014 at 07:58 AM. Reason: Spelling Errors, More Explaination.

  3. #1638
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    3,607
    Quote Originally Posted by Components View Post
    Adelina's other jumps aren't up for debate because she lands most of them almost straight backwards.
    Maybe this is a better way to explain it: more than a 1/4 turn on the ice means the jumps isn't landed backwards (or is landed more forwards than backwards). Regardless of how much a skater prerotates, not landing a jump backwards is not ideal and, if you rotate more than 1/4, you aren't landing the jump backwards. That's the only other way I can think the explain the < rule.

  4. #1639
    Rinkside
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    6
    Quote Originally Posted by Components View Post
    The video available is just too good to try to refute it
    That's exactly what I thought as well. It is the textbook underrotation clip, everything about it is perfect: The ultra high fps, the perpendicular perspective, the camera tracking, the zoom in on the little dust cloud when she touches down... We finally got lucky.

  5. #1640
    Adiós Melon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    443
    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra View Post
    That's exactly what I thought as well. It is the textbook underrotation clip, everything about it is perfect: The ultra high fps, the perpendicular perspective, the camera tracking, the zoom in on the little dust cloud when she touches down... We finally got lucky.
    Funny how obsessed you are with Yuna Kim's jumps. I mean, looking at your youtube feeds, you are clearly a nationalistic person. Why are you such a sad human being? Does liking "Yuna Kim cheat jumps" make you feel better or something? Or are you just one of those people who's still mad Asada got silver in 2010 Vancouver? Why don't you do an in-depth analysis on Asada's jumps in Vancouver. You'll maybe find out she should be stripped of her silver medal given the lee-ways the judges gave her on her 3A, 3A-2Lo, and her 3Lo. Not to mention, her 3A in 2014 Worlds SP should have been called UR as well but your videos don't mention anything about that.

    Don't get me wrong, I do not agree with your "opinions" in ANY way. But I agree with you on one thing. "everything about it is perfect" the way Yuna landed her beautiful 3F and her 3Lz, where she has no EDGE problems unlike 90% of the ladies, and because of your ever so kind "ultra high fps" I was able to see how much she actually rotates in the air, unlike 90% of the ladies (whom you seem to support) who has trouble rotating the bare minimum of 2.25 revolutions.

    It was wonderful to find out what kind of person you are judging by the videos you liked on your own channel. Perhaps next time you should be careful about what you do on public. You have no credibility.

  6. #1641
    Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    132
    There is no minimum of 2.25 revolutions in ISU rules. Pretty clear who has no credibility. The rest is a toxic personal attack.

  7. #1642
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    3,607
    Quote Originally Posted by Alain View Post
    There is no minimum of 2.25 revolutions in ISU rules. Pretty clear who has no credibility. The rest is a toxic personal attack.
    Yeah, personal attacks is all they can do to keep this "controversy" alive. I think once a reasonable person looks at the composition of the SP judging panel and sees the LP panel essentially scored Yuna and Adelina similarly, they are comfortable with the decision. That doesn't mean they necessarily agree with the decision, as Yuna has many fans who wanted to see her win, but they recognize that an objective judge could have gone with either skater.

  8. #1643
    Adiós Melon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    443
    Clearly, you guys gave no clue what kind of person ultra is. Perhaps you all three are the same person talking to yourself. And for the record, personal attack started with you anyways so don't even classify me as toxic when you're the same.

    Btw, since there is no rule for revolution, I can pre-rotate my single lutz 1/2 and land within 1/4 and call it a triple right?
    See how important revolutions are?

  9. #1644
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    3,607
    Quote Originally Posted by Melon View Post
    Btw, since there is no rule for revolution, I can pre-rotate my single lutz 1/2 and land within 1/4 and call it a triple right?
    See how important revolutions are?
    You can call it a quint if you want. So from that you draw the conclusion that the 1/2 and 1/4 that are in the rules are completely meaningless? Typical fan of you-know-who complicating what is simple to understand for anyone else. The allowable prerotation and rotation at the end under the rules are the allowable leeway given. Rotating 1/8 at the end is viewed the same as rotating 1/4 at the end. Prerotating 1/4 is viewed the same as 3/8. No more leeway is given in addition to what is already given at the beginning and end of the jump. Are you still not getting it? Regardless, Yuna and Adelina could have both had their jumps < but they did not, so it didn't matter in the end.

  10. #1645
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    28,253
    I think the question that Melon raises in post 1640 is not so much about the significance of 2.25 revolutions but rather about why we are expending so much energy obsessing over this one particular instance of a triple Lutz attempt, as if the fate of the world hangs on whether Yuna Kim rotated x number of degrees or y.

  11. #1646
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    3,607
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I think the question that Melon raises in post 1640 is not so much about the significance of 2.25 revolutions but rather about why we are expending so much energy obsessing over this one particular instance of a triple Lutz attempt, as if the fate of the world hangs on whether Yuna Kim rotated x number of degrees or y.
    I thought post #1640 was a mean-spirited rant, but I suppose we each have our own interpretation.

  12. #1647
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    28,253
    ^ It is!

    I guess that's what I am really ranting about. Any post containing the words "Yuna Kim" is enough to send half the skating world into a mean spirited rant, and "Adelina Sotnikova" will do the trick for the other half (replacing the former flash words, "Mao Asada").

    That would be bad enough. But when the ranters start backing up their rants by lengthy analyses of protocols and ISU communications, not to mention stop-frame You Tubes -- to me, that's an awful lot of energy expended that could be -- I don't know -- more usefully channeled?

  13. #1648
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    The land of Agent Dale Cooper
    Posts
    8,389
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    That would be bad enough. But when the ranters start backing up their rants by lengthy analyses of protocols and ISU communications, not to mention stop-frame You Tubes -- to me, that's an awful lot of energy expended that could be -- I don't know -- more usefully channeled?
    This goes back to my earlier point that just because people, i.e. non South Koreans/Yuna fans have opted out of the discussion doesn't mean they accepted or agreed with Adelina's win. Nor is the opposite true, that the people who are still arguing for Adelina at this point are the only people who agreed with the win.

    At this point of the game, most will either view it as a controversial result or not and move on. Life is too short to over-analyze, IMO. For me personally, as a skating fan, my time is better spent on looking at skates I enjoyed this season as well as do fun stats about quad attempts.

  14. #1649
    Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    156
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    ^ It is!

    I guess that's what I am really ranting about. Any post containing the words "Yuna Kim" is enough to send half the skating world into a mean spirited rant, and "Adelina Sotnikova" will do the trick for the other half (replacing the former flash words, "Mao Asada").

    That would be bad enough. But when the ranters start backing up their rants by lengthy analyses of protocols and ISU communications, not to mention stop-frame You Tubes -- to me, that's an awful lot of energy expended that could be -- I don't know -- more usefully channeled?
    No its called trying to have an honest intellectually honest discussion.

    And I found out those aren't allowed (literally) unless it falls within their realm of favor.

    I don't personally waste much energy. This isn't affecting my quality of life and neither did the results at the Olympics. Others act like they got a pay cut cause Sotnikova beat Kim at the Olympics.

    And I'm not sure how they're allowed to post that way when I got an infraction for "sarcasm."

  15. #1650
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    28,253
    ^ I guess it depends on whose ox is being gored. To me, it seems more like there are a few people out there who think they will get a pay raise if they can prove that Kim's solo Lutz was under-rotated. (It was. Can we stop now?)

Page 110 of 114 FirstFirst ... 10 60 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •