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Thread: Analyzing Sotnikova and Kim's footwork in the FS

  1. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    So a regional TS is who choreographs designs L4 steps for her students and yet there's a possibility that Adelina's team planned level 3 for her? You really think her SS are awful.
    You are making it sound like Adelina is skating these elements in a vacuum (as opposed to a vacuum cleaner, lol). It's one thing to be skating L4 footwork sequences. It's another thing to do them AND incorporate complicated 3-3's along with multiple triple jumps, difficult spins etc. I'm sure that isn't happening a lot at most local rinks.

    I'm a layman when it comes to this, but does this make sense Mskater93 (and others who actually skate on other surface other than frozen ponds, lol)?

  2. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    the choreographer did not just suddenly discover the rules last month.
    ^This.

    Quote Originally Posted by capcomeback View Post
    she had not gotten Level 4 on her programs all season.
    ^
    This.

    Quote Originally Posted by mskater93 View Post
    There is also a possibility that it was DESIGNED as a L3 (especially since she's gotten L2 and L3 all season until here) but it was miscalled.
    ^And this, make the most sense to me, so far...

    Quote Originally Posted by capcomeback View Post
    It still begs the question why the tech panel failed so epically here.
    Quote Originally Posted by YesWay View Post
    how come the judges gave her level4?

  3. #168
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    To tell the truth, I am not up in arms over this. There are lots of reasons why a skater might choose to do fewer matching pairs of turns, in exchange for better flow and speed, better ice coverage, and better (as opposed to "more") choreography. We are only talking about 0.6 points difference in base value between level 3 and level 4.

    As for the call, Technical Specialists are human, too. Sometimes they miss something.

  4. #169
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    Just deleted my inane response, lol

    Seriously, it's just more fodder that indicates that Adelina perhaps was scored more favorably than she should have been.

  5. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    There are lots of reasons why a skater might choose to do fewer matching pairs of turns, in exchange for better flow and speed, better ice coverage, and better (as opposed to "more") choreography.
    I agree with you. I think they definitely worked on making this sequence more crowd-pleasing. You can see the differences in this video -- it shows her Olympic free skate side-by-side with the one at TEB. Aesthetically, I prefer the stsq from the Olympics.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TESfQwyXvI

    We are only talking about 0.6 points difference in base value between level 3 and level 4.
    True, but being that's it's a required skill, there are GOE points that go along with it, and factor into the total score.

    Y: L3BV 3.30 + GOE 1.14 = 4.44
    A: L4BV 3.90 + GOE 1.70 = 5.60

    Imo, 1.24 is a significant bite out of the margin of victory, and remember that Yuna had yet to skate, so I'm not really buying the argument about the bv being too insignificant to bother w/inflation. Points are points.

    As for the call, Technical Specialists are human, too.
    Which is why - even if nothing can be proven - I don't see how cheating can be ruled out either. Humans are frail, and the judges are only human.

  6. #171
    Custom Title verysmuchso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    To tell the truth, I am not up in arms over this. There are lots of reasons why a skater might choose to do fewer matching pairs of turns, in exchange for better flow and speed, better ice coverage, and better (as opposed to "more") choreography. We are only talking about 0.6 points difference in base value between level 3 and level 4.

    As for the call, Technical Specialists are human, too. Sometimes they miss something.
    Level calls must or can also affect the judges' perception of the quality of execution, in other words, GOE. So the impact on the score may not be just 0.6 points.
    OK I see that I♥Yuna has already addressed this point.

  7. #172
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    As I understand it, the judges do not know what level has been called when they key in the GOE. Isn't this right?

    Anyway, my point was that a skater might choose to do less but do it better, ending up with a lower level but higher GOE, plus possibly higher PCSs in Choreography, Interpretation, etc.

  8. #173
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    As for the call, Technical Specialists are human, too. Sometimes they miss something.
    "Oops, sorry I ruined your life dream."

    There's absolutely no reason anything should be missed with the high-def replays available to them. You either know what you're doing or you don't. There are tough calls to be made on whether or not a jump should be called underrotated, or a spin position should count, or a step should count, but there should certainly not be anything "missing" from the picture.

    And in this case the calls were not tough with Sotnikova. She clearly had an underrotated jump and she clearly had a Level 3 step sequence. She's even had a history of making these mistakes (of always making this mistake, ie - a technique problem, in the case of the 3Lutz+3Toe combo).

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Anyway, my point was that a skater might choose to do less but do it better, ending up with a lower level but higher GOE, plus possibly higher PCSs in Choreography, Interpretation, etc.
    Unfortunately that's not how the sport is being judged right now. One of the many big problems that needs to be fixed. Sotnikova's sloppy step sequence received massive +GOE and her Choreography score was the highest of the competition.

  9. #174
    Custom Title verysmuchso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    As I understand it, the judges do not know what level has been called when they key in the GOE. Isn't this right?

    Anyway, my point was that a skater might choose to do less but do it better, ending up with a lower level but higher GOE, plus possibly higher PCSs in Choreography, Interpretation, etc.
    Well the judges are aware of edge calls when they key in the GOE and reflect them in the GOE. I'd surprised if only edge calls are communicated and not spin or step sequence levels.

  10. #175
    Size 7 Knife Boots Sam-Skwantch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by verysmuchso View Post
    Well the judges are aware of edge calls when they key in the GOE and reflect them in the GOE. I'd surprised if only edge calls are communicated and not spin or step sequence levels.
    Don't the judges grade the element (GOE)and the tech panel makes edge deductions and rotation issues completely independent of each other? Without communication.

    For instance judge A could give a skater a +3 GOE for a spin and have no idea what level of it is awarded(but could probably make an assumption).

  11. #176
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    The circumstances also belie the notion of tech panel's "incompetency." To the contrary, the tech panel was exceedingly competent in getting what they wanted.

    In the SP: Adelina receives lvl 4, everyone else lvl 3
    In the FS: All the top contenders received lvl 4 except for Yuna who received lvl 3.

  12. #177
    Custom Title verysmuchso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-Skwantch View Post
    Don't the judges grade the element (GOE)and the tech panel makes edge deductions and rotation issues completely independent of each other? Without communication.
    Apparently as of 2007 (based on a 2007 post on GS), if the technical panel calls a change of edge, for example, the judges are required to give negative GOE; which points to the existence of communication between the tech panel and the judges.

  13. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by verysmuchso View Post
    Level calls must or can also affect the judges' perception of the quality of execution, in other words, GOE.
    No, judges DO NOT KNOW THE LEVEL CALLS when they award their GOEs. They might guess that the sequence looks complex enough for level 4; if they are also technical specialists or controllers they might count the steps to themselves by habit; but they do not know how this technical panel at this competition called this step sequence. In awarding their GOEs they can only be influenced by what they themselves see.

    OK, here's what I saw for the steps. I'm not going to look back at what BoP called until after I post them.

    RFI double three CCW
    brief turned-out two-foot glide (technically an Ina Bauer? doesn't count as a step)
    RBI choctaw CW
    RFO twizzle CW
    tap-toe CCW
    RFI rocker CCW
    RBI-RBO edge change CCW-CW
    RBO three CCW
    RFI double three (or slow twizzle) CCW
    brief wide step/Ina to LBI choctaw CW
    RFO loop CW
    RFO three CW
    RBI choctaw CCW
    LFO illusion CCW
    toe steps CW
    RFO rocker CW
    RBO counter CW (the free leg action and the camera angle makes it hard to see exactly what she's doing on my VHS tape of the NBCSN broadcast; the nbcolympics.com has a different camera angle but the website doesn't play very smoothly for me, but as far as I can tell it's a counter)
    RFO counter CCW (clearly comes out on a RBO edge but free foot comes down immediately after, so a strict caller might not count it)
    RBO mohawk CCW
    LFO loop CCW
    tap toe CW
    LFI rocker CW
    LBI rocker CCW
    LFI bracket CW
    some crossover steps that don't count, but there is an RBI-RBO edge change CW-CCW
    crossover
    RBI double three CW (or possibly RBI rocker, shallow edge change, RFO three)

    So it might mean being generous on the gray areas (the second twizzle?), but I can see how a caller could give her credit for threes, rockers, twizzles, loops, and counters in both directions, as well as toe steps (if those hops count as steps), choctaws, and edge changes in both directions.

  14. #179
    Size 7 Knife Boots Sam-Skwantch's Avatar
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    VHS TAPE????

    Be careful...VCR's eat tapes all the time.

  15. #180
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    Just to clarify, for those who are confused:

    Judges get to see the e calls and < and << calls on the jumps after the program is over and before they send their marks.

    They do not get to see the level calls.

    And yes, Sam-Skwantch, I have a VCR/DVD player that's about 8 years old and I never did figure out how to record on DVDs so if I want to make a recording I make it on tape.

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