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Thread: Analyzing Sotnikova and Kim's footwork in the FS

  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by capcomeback View Post
    No. This is explaining why a Russian controlled tech panel:

    1. Inflated the level of Adelina's step/turn sequences and deflated Yuna's to the tune of a 1.2 point total difference in base value.

    2. Missed an edge call on a Adelina (a notorious flutzer) and an UR on the same combination (3lz-3T in the FS).

    The rest can be blamed on the judges and their ridiculous GOEs and PCS scores. (lol)
    not even that. DMD's statement calls to the issue of, (we are) assuming the judging is corrupt, and THEN looking at the scoring. But that's actually NOT what this thread is.

    We looked at the scoring, and THEN conclusions about judging (if any) may be drawn. That being said, now that we have Adelina's step sequence broken down, it NOW serves to look at Yuna's (and other skaters) step sequence - which was also called incorrectly. Either the tech panel is incompetent, or something else is going on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    No, it was started to "uncover the truth," not be objective.
    So, are you saying that no truth has been uncovered here? (ie, that it's not true that Adelina's SS is L3??) The steps are on camera and the rules are in black and white <- please explain the subjectivity in this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mao88 View Post
    your a Yunabot. And the truth does not constitute an insult.
    I completely agree The truth is that the panel did not call the right level on her SS. And that does not constitute an insult

    Quote Originally Posted by capcomeback View Post
    BTW, Thanks BoP for your incredible efforts here!
    Ditto!

    ps - found the video (http://tvpot.daum.net/v/v87a2CxPLCLTHxxCQQJLXGL) Yuna's sequence is about 45 seconds long (a good 20 seconds longer than Adelina's - or twice as long). Caro's was also about 40 seconds long (aerial view: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcXtfg3AcCA). I don't have video of other L3s - anyone care to time some of them to see how they compare? (Perhaps simply going past 30 seconds is a good indicator that it's L4? A rule of thumb like that would make sense to explain how the majority of step sequences are usually called correctly, even when we know that they are not evaluating every single second of everybodys SS's).

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    Quote Originally Posted by kslr0816 View Post
    not even that. DMD's statement calls to the issue of, assuming the judging is corrupt, and THEN looking at the scoring. But that's actually NOT what this thread is.

    We looked at the scoring, and THEN conclusions about judging (if any) may be drawn. That being said, now that we have Adelina's step sequence broken down, it NOW serves to look at Yuna's (and other skaters) step sequence - which was also called incorrectly. Either the tech panel is incompetent, or something else is going on.
    I'm not stating that the Tech panel was corrupt (just implying it, lol).

  4. #304
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    To DMD, gmyers, nadya and mao88 - the world is round, you cannot catch gonorrhea from a toilet seat AND adelina was grossly overmarked in sochi.

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    Quote Originally Posted by karkit View Post
    to dmd, gmyers, nadya and mao88 - the world is round, you cannot catch gonorrhea from a toilet seat and adelina was grossly overmarked in sochi.
    lol

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    Without reading through this entire thread, my only comment is that the analysis shows everything that is wrong with COP and how it didn't fix anything that was wrong with figure skating judging. It is impossible, in my opinion, for the technical caller to do the kind of analysis BOP did in the few minutes they have in a competition. And even if they made every effort, they are likely to make mistakes. This leaves the judging open to manipulation because, well, it could have been a mistake or just open to interpretation. The system is way too complex. How hard was it to say that Yagudin's footwork in Salt Lake, for instance, provided support for a 6.0 mark in presentation? Great footwork used to be exciting or even explosive. Now it is mostly labored, twisting and too long. It can be admired when done really well, like for instance, Mao's in Sochi, but it doesn't pack the same punch or add that much to the artistry, in my opinion. Now that COP has been exposed in Sochi as being just as subject to manipulation as the old system, and less subject to accountability, it is just one more nail in the coffin of the sport of figure skating

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    Quote Originally Posted by jenaj View Post
    Without reading through this entire thread, my only comment is that the analysis shows everything that is wrong with COP and how it didn't fix anything that was wrong with figure skating judging. It is impossible, in my opinion, for the technical caller to do the kind of analysis BOP did in the few minutes they have in a competition. And even if they made every effort, they are likely to make mistakes. This leaves the judging open to manipulation because, well, it could have been a mistake or just open to interpretation. The system is way too complex. How hard was it to say that Yagudin's footwork in Salt Lake, for instance, provided support for a 6.0 mark in presentation? Great footwork used to be exciting or even explosive. Now it is mostly labored, twisting and too long. It can be admired when done really well, like for instance, Mao's in Sochi, but it doesn't pack the same punch or add that much to the artistry, in my opinion. Now that COP has been exposed in Sochi as being just as subject to manipulation as the old system, and less subject to accountability, it is just one more nail in the coffin of the sport of figure skating
    What I would agree with you is, is that COP/IJS needs to go. They should never have got rid of the old 6.0 system, and I think it is time to bring it back

  8. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mao88 View Post
    What I would agree with you is, is that COP/IJS needs to go. They should never have got rid of the old 6.0 system, and I think it is time to bring it back
    They will never go back, for sure. Sometimes we should take note that the technical panels have more stressful life than the judges. We have hours, days, weeks and months to analize the program, but they only have 5 minutes max. Well, if there is any words from the technical panel, that would be nice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meoima View Post
    They will never go back, for sure. Sometimes we should take note that the technical panels have more stressful life than the judges. We have hours, days, weeks and months to analize the program, but they only have 5 minutes max. Well, if there is any words from the technical panel, that would be nice.
    while i agree with this statement, the logical conclusion of not being able to catch everything is that they have to more or less catch the big things, and get a gist of things. they should at least be trained to call stuff like flutz's, etc. It seems if they cannot break it down completely (which they reasonably can't), then they are giving the benefit of the doubt to, it seems, some skaters and not others.

    In general, I can see mistaking a level 3 to level 4 easier than I can see mistaking a level 4 to a level 3 though - I could be wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kslr0816 View Post
    while i agree with this statement, the logical conclusion of not being able to catch everything is that they have to more or less catch the big things, and get a gist of things. they should at least be trained to call stuff like flutz's, etc. It seems if they cannot break it down completely (which they reasonably can't), then they are giving the benefit of the doubt to, it seems, some skaters and not others.

    In general, I can see mistaking a level 3 to level 4 easier than I can see mistaking a level 4 to a level 3 though - I could be wrong.
    Yeah, that's why I think we need some words from the tech panel members. Like... Why did they decide on this, on that... Or at least some words from tech panel specialist who might not work at Sochi, but has done judging for a long time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by port79 View Post
    Analysis after analysis, what BoP is saying about the scoring resonates with a lot of peeps here.

    When you’re talking about the judging, how can you conveniently take the tech panel, which has so much power to set the baselines for scorning, out of the picture?

    Considering the bogus calls on, Sotnikova’s 3-3< (and flutz) and the step level, at a minimum, the four judges who scored 141-145 might not be completely irrational since the range would’ve gone down to 135-140 with the correct calls. That leaves the five scoring 151-155. We know for a fact the two judges are patently biased (or cheater). Are you suggesting that the rest three could’ve not been possibly influenced by the wife of the Russian Fed and the power behind?

    Someone, I think who is way more authoritative and credible than you are, already debunked your last straw-judges invariably judge independently.

    From a Dartmouth economics professor’s WSJ article--

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...gets-it-wrong/



    I don't think you have ever responded to that?
    Thanks for the great link. After reading this, I'm not sure if the entire judging/officiating/scoring system needs a complete overhauling. For the actual makeup of the tech panel, I think a tweak or two (to include more specialists, perhaps, but not much else) might help. What DOES need to happen is for there to be a change in the culture of the ISU (stop the practice of selecting judges with strong biases or conflicts of interest -especially for international competitions!). Also judges/officials need to be better trained (which would happen if you selected a whole new crop of them anyway). The skaters and the fans deserve better than to be stuck with biased, inept or corrupt officiating.

    BTW, the story was written before the skaters took the ice in Sochi!

  12. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by capcomeback View Post
    Thanks for the great link. After reading this, I'm not sure if the entire judging/officiating system needs overhauling. I think a tweak or two on the tech panel (to include more specialists, perhaps), but nothing else. What DOES need to happen is for there to be a change in the culture of the ISU (stop the practice of selecting judges with strong biases or conflicts of interest). Also judges/officials need to be better trained (which would happen if you selected a whole new crop of them anyway). The skaters and the fans deserve better than to be stuck with biased, inept or corrupt officiating.

    BTW, the story was written before the skaters took the ice in Sochi!
    I might have mention before on the judge controversy thread. They just need to devise an open transparency system with accountability, but a draw system to ensure there's no conflict of interest, even more extreme than the current COP regulations.

    The current system does not need overhauled but does need better application on how PCS is awarded in theory AND in practice.

    There should implement a more well thought out Judge ETHICS document that takes restrictive and preventative measures such as

    - A judge should not able to judge their own federation skaters more than 1 time in the whole season.
    - A judge should not able to judge on the same category event more than twice in the whole season. (This prevent false momentum building)
    - A judge should not able to judge a competition with another judge they have previously judged in the same event during the season. (This prevent distorting average mean working together)
    - There should be no judges or restricted to just 1 judge from any of the top 5 ranking skaters nationality on the same event due to conflict of interest at any major competitions , ie/ GPF, WC, Olympics.

    If it contains all 5 top ranked skater nationality judges, is it totally inconceivable they will gangs up (block judging shared interest, vote trading etc) to depress the score of the likely leader? Consciously or unconsciously. Just think about it.

    Same application for the technical panel.

  13. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    I might have mention before on the judge controversy thread. They just need to devise a open transparency system with accountability, but a draw system to ensure there's no conflict of interest, even more extreme than the current COP regulations.

    The current system does not need overhauled but does need better application on how PCS is awarded in theory AND in practice.

    There should implement a more well thought out Judge ETHICS document that takes restrictive and preventative measures such as

    - A judge should not able to judge their own federation skaters more than 1 time in the whole season.
    - A judge should not able to judge on the same category event more than twice in the whole season. (This prevent false momentum building)
    - A judge should not able to judge a competition with another judge they have previously judged in the same competition during the season. (This prevent distorting average mean)
    - There should no judges or restricted to just 1 judge from any of the top 5 ranking skaters due to conflict of interest at major competitions like GPF, WC, Olympics.

    If it contains all 5 top ranked skater nationality judges, is it totally inconceivable they will gangs up (block judging shared interest, vote trading etc) to depress the score of the likely leader? Consciously or unconsciously. Just think about it.

    Same application for the technical panel.
    Yeah, I forgot the part about identifying judges (and the tech callers responsible for verifying each element).

  14. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by port79 View Post

    From a Dartmouth economics professor’s WSJ article--

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...gets-it-wrong/


    Great article--thanks for posting. Someone should send it to Speedy (not that it would do any good).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    As requested, I have written down all of the movements in Yu-Na Kim's LP footwork sequence:
    Thanks Blades of Passion for the immense amount of work you put into this. Your dedication and commitment to fair scoring and fair calls (and uncovering what wasn't fairly done) is impressive. You are honestly doing 100x better a job than most Yuna fans have done at explaining the issues with the judging in Sochi, maybe precisely for the reason that you're not motivated by emotional attachment to Yuna or any skater. (Blades of Passion, a Yunabot? Hah!)

    This isn't really about Yuna or Adelina. It could've been about any other two skaters. And it could happen again, with two different skaters who skate very well, with different strengths and weaknesses, and a few questionable or outright incorrect calls go the way of one of those particular skaters, making what appeared to be a close competition into a big margin of victory.

    Technical calls, GOE, and PCS scores need to hold up under scrutiny after the competition is over. The results need to be understandable by the public. The ISU needs to do a better job in educating the public on the scoring system and explaining controversial calls/results. And to quote BoP, "Oops, sorry I ruined your life dream" from a technical caller is not going to cut it.

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