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Thread: Analyzing Sotnikova and Kim's footwork in the FS

  1. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    A judge should not able to judge their own federation skaters more than 1 time in the whole season.
    This would be highly impractical. If Russia's or USA's top 3 skaters skated at 6 different GP events, and there were some overlap with lower ranked RUS/USA skaters, it is entirely possible to need 6 different judges for the GP series, and none of those judges would be able to judge at 4CC/Euros, and none of those (including the 4CC/Euros judge) could judge Worlds. Add in some Senior B's to the mix and you're talking about needing a lot of judges. If the complaint is that the judges are inadequately trained, knocking out so many judges with this provision would not lead to having the best judges at the most important competitions.

  2. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by karkit View Post
    To DMD, gmyers, nadya and mao88 - the world is round, you cannot catch gonorrhea from a toilet seat AND adelina was grossly overmarked in sochi.


    PS Like your handle, it means "candies" in Finnish

  3. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mao88 View Post
    Your not fooling anybody - your a Yunabot. And the truth does not constitute an insult
    One of your multiple pseud accounts no doubt Eladola. You know, talking to yourself is bad for you.
    This highlights the number one problem with Yunabots. They are so obsessed by Kim, that they regard all other skaters as 'enemies'. I don't.
    Nah, Not a Yunabot.

    Ignore the haters everyone,
    Keep supporting figure skating through your actions.

  4. #319
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    Blades of Passion, can you please analyze Carolina and Mao LP footwoks?

    Hugs.

  5. #320
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    If Sotnikova got level 3, Kim got level 4, and assuming the same GOE still apply then the score will work out

    KIM stsq BV 3.9, GOE 1.6, Total 5.5 ( +1.06)
    Sotnikova stsq BV 3.3, GOE 1.21 Total 4.51 (-1.29)

    The score difference works out 2.35 (did I calculate wrong somewhere?).

    It is interesting, Sotnikova got a +1 as one of her GOEs.
    You made a mistake calculating the differential for Sotnikova, her score would drop from 5.6 to to 4.51, which is 1.09 points.

    But, really, the judges who gave Sotnikova's step sequence +3 GOE are completely wrong. Giving it a +2 would already be overly generous and not the most accurate representation of the quality. We are analyzing the step sequences here, so it's only logical to have a discussion on the GOE grades now that I have proven the level calls were wrong.

    In comparing these two step sequences, Sotnikova had shakier edges, less flow in the movement, inferior upper body movement, and significantly less movement directly to the music. There isn't any criteria in which she was better than Yu-Na either. Her GOE grade on the footwork should have been at least a full mark behind Yu-Na's. A fair assessment of the footwork sequences would be Level 3 with +1 GOE for Sotnikova and Level 4 with +2 GOE for Yu-Na. That would put the scoring differential at 2.66 points from what they actually received.

  6. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    - A judge should not able to judge their own federation skaters more than 1 time in the whole season.
    I.e., the same judge should not judge the same home country skater at more than one international event per year?

    The ISU can't control whether an international judge also judges at their national championships, where they will judge all of their country's international-level skaters.

    - A judge should not able to judge on the same category event more than twice in the whole season. (This prevent false momentum building)
    Works for singles/pairs judges, since they have three different disciplines they can judge. And for judges who have both singles/pairs and dance appointments. For those with dance appointments only, either they judge the dance event or they don't judge.
    And some countries don't have multiple dance judges.

    - A judge should not able to judge a competition with another judge they have previously judged in the same event during the season. (This prevent distorting average mean working together)
    If you're worried about making deals, then even being in the same place at the same time (e.g., judging different disciplines or one judging and the other serving as referee or controller) would give them access to do so.

    - There should be no judges or restricted to just 1 judge from any of the top 5 ranking skaters nationality on the same event due to conflict of interest at any major competitions , ie/ GPF, WC, Olympics.

    If it contains all 5 top ranked skater nationality judges, is it totally inconceivable they will gangs up (block judging shared interest, vote trading etc) to depress the score of the likely leader? Consciously or unconsciously. Just think about it.
    If they're going to do it consciously, and if they all have dogs in the hunt so to speak, they're going to make deals against each other. I.e., bloc judging. Allowing one top-ranked skater to have a home country judge and not the others would theoretically give that skater more of an advantage than allowing all 5 to have home judges.

    If you're just talking about judges developing groupthink consensus by serving on panels together and discussing their decisions afterward in the judges' room, I don't know that the nationality of the judges would be the biggest factor. E.g., if the Finnish and the French and the Australian judge often end up at the same competitions and talk about what they saw, they may end up with similar opinions about the current Russian and Japanese and American skaters, without any particular political reason to favor one country's contenders over another.

    There's always going to be a tension between practicality and attempts to legislate impartiality.

    In an ideal world there would be an unlimited supply of qualified knowledgeable judges from all over the world, including countries with no elite skaters whatsoever, who can get to any location at any time for the same modest costs. If that were the case, avoiding judges' familiarity with or allegiance to specific top competitors could always be a top consideration.

    In real life, judges need to gain experience judging elite skaters before they can be deemed qualified enough to judge the big events. They will usually have judged all their own country's top skaters in domestic competitions. Judges from newer federations need experience judging junior and senior B events before qualifying for championship events. Judges in Europe can often drive or take trains to competitions in other European countries, making it easier for them to be invited to judge international events at the beginning of their international judging careers, so they will be more familiar with other European skaters before they reach the elite levels. American and Canadian judges may be familiar not only with their own country's skaters but some of each other's who cross the border for nonqualifying competitions, as well as any foreign skaters who train in North America and enter nonqual competitions for practice.

    Judges often have relationships with other officials or with coaches of similar age and background dating back to their own skating years.

    Some sources of familiarity and affiliation with the skaters they judge can be considered too much of a conflict of interest and reason to disqualify that judge from serving on a panel with that skater. Others are too numerous to be anything but inevitable, and usually too tenuous to make much difference.

    Where is it practical to draw the line? E.g., say we all agree that no parent should judge his/her own child, or no tech specialist who is also a coach should serve on a panel of an event in which a current student is competing. But just having judged the same skater a couple times before during the same season? Keeping track of all such connections would be a full-time job in itself.

    If the main concern is the high-stakes medal contenders at the big events, maybe the rule could only apply to the Grand Prix and to ISU championships.

    Judges are often assigned to the big events months in advance -- although they won't necessarily know which discipline they'll be assigned to or whether they will end up being drawn on the panel or as alternates.

    The international judging assignments cannot be made at the last minute because it's often necessary for the officials to obtain visas to enter the country where the competition is being held, and to arrange for the time off from their day jobs.

    Which skaters from their country will compete at that event will not be known months in advance -- sometimes not until the close of entries for the event. Or afterward, if an official entry withdraws and is replaced by a listed alternate.

  7. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by karkit View Post
    To DMD, gmyers, nadya and mao88 - the world is round, you cannot catch gonorrhea from a toilet seat AND adelina was grossly overmarked in sochi.
    1. The Earth is not round. As Isaac Newton pointed out, it is an oblate spheroid (an irregularly shaped ellipsoid) — a sphere that is squashed at its poles and swollen at the equator. Because of this bulge, the distance from Earth's center to sea level is roughly 21 kilometers (13 miles) greater at the equator than at the poles. Moreover, the shape of the Earth is always changing. Sometimes this change is periodic, as is the case with daily tides that affect both the ocean and the crust; sometimes the change is slow and steady, as with the drift of tectonic plates or the rebound of the crust after a heavy sheet of ice has melted; and sometimes the shape of the planet changes in violent, episodic ways during events such as earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, or meteor strikes.

    2. Nobody has suggested otherwise

    3. Adelina Sotnikova, THE 2014 OLYMPIC CHAMPION, received the marks she did because she deserved them.

    You scored 1 out of 3 (very poor). Your ignorance is typical of all Yunabots

    Quote Originally Posted by Eladola View Post
    Ignore the haters everyone,
    I agree - that's why the silent majority are ignoring you and all the other Yunabots.

    In terms of you Yunabots mission to convince the world she was wuzrobbed - me thinks this sums it up nicely

  8. #323
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    You guys are all missing the point. CoP was created to hide cheating. The judges do not follow the guidelines, the numbers are just made up in the end to verify the predetermined results.

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    Reading this thread made me think about, oddly enough, Rachael Flatt. The downgrades on Rachael's flips at the 2010 Olympics never sat right with me at the time. I always thought those downgrades were politically motivated--because Rachael went first in the group and she went clean, they just didn't want any chance she'd be near the podium if the veterans weren't clean.

    I didn't shed any tears for her, but...that wasn't right. Rachael lost about 8 points in base value and she would've otherwise been in 5th place and had the honor of being in the gala. Rachael being in the gala may not have made a big difference to some, but it would have made a big deal to Rachael personally.

    I think everyone would agree that technical calls ought to be consistent and fair for all skaters across the board. The only disagreement here from some is whether the technical calls were fair and consistent across the board in the ladies event in Sochi.

  10. #325
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    Judges should not have so much room for variation in the GOEs. They should either award a +1 or nothing. No fractions, or 3 point range. Unless every skater is performing the same program---and everyone has the same base value, it pushes judges to order the skaters based on politics, their personal feelings, and bs things like "Olympic moments."

  11. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ven View Post
    You guys are all missing the point. CoP was created to hide cheating. The judges do not follow the guidelines, the numbers are just made up in the end to verify the predetermined results.
    Any judging system for a sport like this would be cheating friendly,

    The problem with this specific system is that if there were to be cheating, It would be backed by "protocol"

  12. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by sk8in View Post
    Judges should not have so much room for variation in the GOEs. They should either award a +1 or nothing.
    So you're saying that there should be no more than 1 point difference in the scores for, say, this triple lutz and this one?

    No fractions, or 3 point range.
    Well, the individual judges already don't have the option of using fractional GOEs. That's an effect of the averaging. Even if they only have a choice between 0 and 1 for successful elements, every time even one judge disagrees there will be decimal places in the average GOE.

    Unless every skater is performing the same program---and everyone has the same base value, it pushes judges to order the skaters based on politics, their personal feelings, and bs things like "Olympic moments."
    That can happen, but the main thing that GOEs do is allow judges to score quality. If you take away that option, then there's no incentive to do anything well, just to get it done successfully.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    That can happen, but the main thing that GOEs do is allow judges to score quality. If you take away that option, then there's no incentive to do anything well, just to get it done successfully.
    They don't score on quality anyway, they just assign whatever numbers will help the placements come out the way they have agreed behind closed doors.

  14. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ven View Post
    They don't score on quality anyway, they just assign whatever numbers will help the placements come out the way they have agreed behind closed doors.
    I disagree. They usually score on quality.

    In high-stakes competitions like the Olympics, there may also be agreements behind closed doors that cause judges to systematically nudge their GOEs up or down for certain skaters. But those manipulations would be the exception, not the norm.

    Do you really think that judges bother to make agreements about what scores to give some 13-year-old they never heard of at her first JGP?

  15. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    I disagree. They usually score on quality.

    In high-stakes competitions like the Olympics, there may also be agreements behind closed doors that cause judges to systematically nudge their GOEs up or down for certain skaters. But those manipulations would be the exception, not the norm.

    Do you really think that judges bother to make agreements about what scores to give some 13-year-old they never heard of at her first JGP?
    I assume that when the judges watch the practice skates in their head they are creating a "par"score, so to speak, that they expect to give the skater. If they've been judging long enough I also assume they could relatively easily have a pre planned way to mark scores to achieve this "par". Of course the skaters can improve on the score or decrease it based on how they skate. Am I assuming too much or is it fair to think the judges actually know the skaters pretty well and whether subconscious or not...they have a score in mind before the skater takes the ice. I'd like to add that I don't see anything wrong necessarily with this..I'm just curious if this happens...at least in the international top rungs.

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