Analyzing Sotnikova and Kim's footwork in the FS

gkelly · Mar 15, 2014

qwertyskates said:
It is also a conjecture that skaters who can execute them in both directions are somehow "better" and "more valued" according to the COP.

No, it's explicit that the ability to turn in both directions is more valued.

"Multidirectional skating" is one of the criteria for the Skating Skills component.

One of the features for step sequences with which skaters can earn higher than base level is to turn in each direction for at least 1/3 of the pattern.

A different feature for step sequences is the variety/complexity feature, with different definitions for the minimum requirements for level 1, 2, 3, or 4. Only for the level 4 requirements, "complexity" of turns and steps, is rotation in both directions required.

There are 6 and only 6 possible different kinds of turns.
The way "variety" is defined for level 3, it's necessary to do either 5 or 6 different kinds, but they could all be in the same direction.
For "complexity" for level 4, it's necessary to do either 5 or 6 different kinds and each kind must be done in both directions. That's part of what makes "complexity" (as defined in the step sequence feature rules) harder to achieve than "variety."

However, does Adelina's SS deserve to be downgraded to Level 3 because she did this particular combination (6 types of turns)? I don't see the compelling case for it at all, especially when no one else seems to have noticed this grave "error". In fact, I believe she was rewarded for achieving greater variety/types of moves.

There's no way to interpret the rule as written to allow for 6 different kinds of turns being worth more than 5 different kinds in terms of the tech panel determining the level.
Either 5 or 6 can meet the requirement, but 5 must be performed in both directions.

If judges want to keep track of the number of kinds of turns and reward that the step sequence GOE or in the Skating Skills or Choreography components -- or Transitions for those turns that take place outside the step sequence -- they are free to do so. It's not an explicit criterion, so it probably wouldn't make a significant difference even for judges who do bother to keep track.

capcomeback · Mar 15, 2014

gkelly said:
No, it's explicit that the ability to turn in both directions is more valued.

"Multidirectional skating" is one of the criteria for the Skating Skills component.

One of the features for step sequences with which skaters can earn higher than base level is to turn in each direction for at least 1/3 of the pattern.

A different feature for step sequences is the variety/complexity feature, with different definitions for the minimum requirements for level 1, 2, 3, or 4. Only for the level 4 requirements, "complexity" of turns and steps, is rotation in both directions required.

There are 6 and only 6 possible different kinds of turns.
The way "variety" is defined for level 3, it's necessary to do either 5 or 6 different kinds, but they could all be in the same direction.
For "complexity" for level 4, it's necessary to do either 5 or 6 different kinds and each kind must be done in both directions. That's part of what makes "complexity" (as defined in the step sequence feature rules) harder to achieve than "variety."

There's no way to interpret the rule as written to allow for 6 different kinds of turns being worth more than 5 different kinds in terms of the tech panel determining the level.
Either 5 or 6 can meet the requirement, but 5 must be performed in both directions.

If judges want to keep track of the number of kinds of turns and reward that the step sequence GOE or in the Skating Skills or Choreography components -- or Transitions for those turns that take place outside the step sequence -- they are free to do so. It's not an explicit criterion, so it probably wouldn't make a significant difference even for judges who do bother to keep track.

Thanks gkelly. I think this clarifies the point.

jand0387 · Mar 15, 2014

mskater93 said:
In Yuna's SP, I saw one step that ended up being a Mohawk that was supposed to be a Choctaw (and she knew it when it happened, too, you could briefly see it on her face)

PS: I copied the rules from US Figure Skating's IJS page (because it's easier to find) which is taken from the ISU page AND the like, so looking at BoP's analysis, if he has gotten the steps/turns wrong or missed some, please point those out; otherwise, I don't see where he's "hating on Sotnikova".

No one has analyzed Yuna's because she got a L3.

Which part? I have no knowledge of the step moves like mohawk or Choctaw so I keep watching side by side with Golden spin of zagreb and Korean nationals I don't see any difference

TMC · Mar 15, 2014

capcomeback said:
Thanks gkelly. I think this clarifies the point.

Looking forward to qwertyskates' rebuttal :laugh:

capcomeback · Mar 15, 2014

qwertyskates said:
This is a conjecture, that somehow, in general, all skaters' mantle must be tested based on criteria of execution of each turns and steps in *both directions*, and NOT on their ability to execute a *greater variety* of types of turns and steps and the difficulties in the combinations, coverage, upper body movements, musicality, etc. OVERALL package, instead of just one element. It is also a conjecture that skaters who can execute them in both directions are somehow "better" and "more valued" according to the COP. It doesn't matter for most TES, scores don't go up if a skater can jump or spin in both directions. In fact based on Consistency of the COP Rules, eg. Zayak & SS Complexity, greater number of TYPES of jumps, of moves, of spins, are rewarded higher levels and greater BV. Repetition is penalized, variety is rewarded. I do think that execution of StepSequence in both directions matter for judging skating skills, in terms of rotation control, etc. to be graded Level 4, which is why it was included. It certainly makes for a more interesting and difficult choreography. However, does Adelina's SS deserve to be downgraded to Level 3 because she did this particular combination (6 types of turns)? I don't see the compelling case for it at all, especially when no one else seems to have noticed this "grave error" to torpedo her Level. In fact, I believe she was rewarded for achieving greater variety/types of moves. Again, I haven't seen either SS in slow motion, and I will only believe it when it is raised publicly in the mass media, ratified by figure skating experts.

BTW, your use of the term "musicality" seems like an oxymoron within the context of Adelina's FS. Granted, her choreo was busy, but was not particularly "musical". Adelina did a lot of things well, but she did not seem up to bridging the gap between her choreography to the music she was skating to (Introduction and Rondo Capriccioso by Saint Saens). This kind of interpretive skill can take a long time to develop (as with Carolina Kostner, who was nowhere near the artistic skater she was at 17 that she is at 27).

skatedreamer · Mar 15, 2014

capcomeback said:
BTW, your use of the term "musicality" seems like an oxymoron within the context of Adelina's FS. Granted, her choreo was busy, but was not particularly "musical". Adelina did a lot of things well, but she did not seem up to bridging the gap between her choreography to the music she was skating to (Introduction and Rondo Capriccioso by Saint Saens). This kind of interpretive skill can take a long time to develop (as in Carolina Kostner, who was nowhere near the artistic skater she was at 17 that she is at 27).

Agreed: if anything, the choreography obscured the music instead of enhancing/illuminating it. In fairness, though, it's possible that the techno-pop arrangement was partially to blame for the frenetic choreography.

"Oxymoron" was spot-on! :laugh:

Vanshilar · Mar 15, 2014

gkelly said:
For "complexity" for level 4, it's necessary to do either 5 or 6 different kinds and each kind must be done in both directions. That's part of what makes "complexity" (as defined in the step sequence feature rules) harder to achieve than "variety."

I think that's what's up for debate here. Some are arguing that the language means "5 different turns in the clockwise (CW) direction, and 5 different turns in the counterclockwise (CCW) direction", not that each type of turn has to be done in both directions. With 6 types of turns, this means that a skater could do turns A, B, C, and D each in both directions, then do turn E in one direction, and turn F in the other direction, to satisfy this requirement. That's the argument, and it's different from either of the interpretations that TMC gave.

That's why I pointed out that the language is actually "at least once in both directions" (with emphasis on the "at least once"). That's the actual part of the sentence that specifies that it's for each type of turn and step, not the quibble over the added comma before "all". Furthermore, the additional clarifying notes in the version I found specifically states that this is "not only for turns, but also for steps" meaning it's for both categories of moves.

If I tabulated BoP's list correctly, then he listed Adelina as doing the following:

Code:

Turns   CW CCW
3-turn   3   2
Twizzle  1   1
Bracket  -   1
Loop     1   1
Counter  1   -
Rocker   3   3

Steps          CW CCW
Toe step        1   -
Chasse          4   -
Mohawk          -   1
Choctaw         -   1
Change of edge  2   -
Cross roll      -   -

Other         CW CCW
Toe hop        1   1
Illusion turn  -   1

Not tabled:
6.) change edge from inside to outside
26.) edge change from inside to outside
27.) edge change from outside to inside with free foot placed on ice

The "other" is just because those weren't explicitly listed in the handbook, so I didn't want to go beyond what's there and put them in one of the types of moves. For some, I wasn't sure what it would count as (CW or CCW, for example) so I didn't put them in the above tables.

If we take that a toe hop is considered a step (i.e. counts as a toe step, just that it had a hop added), then Adelina did indeed do 5 different turns in the CW direction and 5 different turns in the CCW direction, and 3 different steps in the CW direction and 3 different steps in the CCW direction. It's just that Adelina did a counter in the CW direction but not in the CCW direction, and did a bracket in the CCW direction, but not in the CW direction. Thus it would satisfy the level if the rule is interpreted as that there needs to be 5 different CW turns and 5 different CCW turns, but not if the rule is interpreted that each turn must be done in both directions to count as one of the 5. Similarly for the steps. (Note that I have some edge changes that weren't in the table, so if at least one of them were in the CCW direction then she would have 2 steps fulfilling the "both directions", not just 1.)

The point was raised about maybe the technical panel just being lenient on the skaters. Hence as requested BoP also wrote out the moves done by Yuna. I'll put hers side-by-side with what Adelina did:

Code:

        Adelina  Yuna
Turns   CW CCW  CW CCW
3-turn   3   2   1   2
Twizzle  1   1   1   4
Bracket  -   1   1   1
Loop     1   1   1   1
Counter  1   -   -   1
Rocker   3   3   3   3

Steps          CW CCW  CW CW
Toe step        1   -   4   2
Chasse          4   -   1   3
Mohawk          -   1   1   1
Choctaw         -   1   1   1
Change of edge  2   -   1   1
Cross roll      -   -   -   1

Other         CW CCW  CW CCW
Toe hop        1   1   -   1
Illusion turn  -   1   -   1
Waltz hop      -   -   1   -
Cross step     -   -   2   3

Not tabled (Adelina):
6.) change edge from inside to outside
26.) edge change from inside to outside
27.) edge change from outside to inside with free foot placed on ice

Not tabled (Yuna):
2.) Back edge pull with free foot toepick push, clockwise
7.) Change edge from outside to inside with free foot placed on ice
13). Change edge from outside to inside
15.) Full turn on ice while changing feet, counterclockwise
19.) Choctaw executed with a hop, clockwise
26.) Edge change from inside to outside
28.) Brief back inside two foot glide with back free foot mini-kick
38.) Half turn and edge change from inside to outside with free foot push, clockwise
44.) Half turn and edge change from inside to outside with free foot placed on ice, counterclockwise

In both categories Yuna did more different types than Adelina; she did a bracket in both directions, while Adelina did a bracket in only one direction. Furthermore, Yuna did 5 of the 6 listed steps in both directions, and also did a cross roll (which Adelina didn't do), as well as cross steps in both directions; there's also some additional moves that weren't included in the table. In short, Yuna had more variety and complexity than Adelina, yet received a level 3 mark for her step sequence. Hence it wasn't a matter of the technical panel being lenient on the skaters. Perhaps they felt Yuna didn't satisfy one of the other requirements for level 4 or something (such as 2 different combinations of 3 difficult turns) -- or incompetence or favoritism. Take your pick.

I agree that the thread should be more focusing on the moves that skaters did, and whether or not they satisfy the judging rules, and by implication compare that with what the judges actually called. That's even in the OP. Unfortunately, as it's clear from this thread, most people are either unable and/or unwilling to actually do the legwork in determining the moves (including me, who is firmly in the "unable" category), and some prefer to try to derail this thread by shouting "Yuna bot" and "Adelina hater" over and over without disputing the evidence or contributing to the discussion; perhaps they already see the inevitable conclusion if the evidence were analyzed. This thread would probably only be 1/3 the length if such posts were removed.

It understandably takes time to actually review and list out the moves. Kudos to you guys for doing so.

drivingmissdaisy · Mar 15, 2014

qwertyskates said:
In fact, the reverse is true - IF skaters are penalized for offering MORE Variety (within limitations of time and FINITE Number of Turns/Steps achievable) and are forced to REPEAT types of steps in the counter direction, the Complexity Rule contradicts itself, as it discourages Variety and forces Repetition of Types!!

Yet...notice that first and foremost, it sets a MINIMUM of VARIETY, i.e. MORE TYPES = HIGHER LEVEL

This is what I have been unable to express as clearly as I would have liked, so thank you qwertyskates. It seems odd to interpret a rule that is intended to promote a variety of turns and steps (and is ambiguously written) in a way that penalizes more variety.

ectomorph · Mar 15, 2014

Blades of Passion said:
Net difference of 1.2 points in BV and 0.95 points in GOE, so 2.15 points total.

And that's if we assume Sotnikova deserved those GOE grades. She had shakier edges, less flow in the movement, inferior upper body movement, and significantly less movement directly to the music...and yet was graded higher in GOE than Yu-Na for the footwork.

Thank you, Blades of Passion, for your answer and the work put into the analysis.
The most often repeated defense of the Sochi result is that AS skated a more difficult routine, worth more points than YK's.
The BV numbers as scored:
AS: SP 30.43 LP 61.43
YK: SP 31.43 LP 57.49

Total BV difference: 2.94

Without the added 1.2 point margin in the LP step sequence inflation/deflation, we get a total BV difference of 1.74.

Question:
How about the short program step sequence levels?
There too, AS got level 4 while YK's is scored a level 3.

I'm not qualified to check, but is it possible there's another .6 or 1.2 gap in BV that shouldn't exist?

capcomeback · Mar 15, 2014

drivingmissdaisy said:
This is what I have been unable to express as clearly as I would have liked, so thank you qwertyskates. It seems odd to interpret a rule that is intended to promote a variety of turns and steps (and is ambiguously written) in a way that penalizes more variety.

If Adelina wanted the extra turns added she should have worked it out with her choreographer. This way, she could have had six turns in both directions. Instead of four in both directions and two in only one direction. How would that penalize her variety? She even repeated at least one turn in the same direction. How does that promote "variety"?

jaylee · Mar 15, 2014

ectomorph said:
Question:
How about the short program step sequence levels?
There too, AS got level 4 while YK's is scored a level 3.

I'm not qualified to check, but is it possible there's another .6 or 1.2 gap in BV that shouldn't exist?

Just for reference, here are the levels Adelina received on her SS previously this season in the short program:

2014 Europeans: level 3
2013 GPF: level 4
2013 TEB: level 3
2013 GP China: level 4

These are separate competitions and so do not prove anything definitively in regards to Adelina deserving level 4 for her step sequence in the SP at the Olympics, but the history makes me more confident that generosity was not needed to give Adelina a level 4, as Adelina proved herself previously capable of getting a level 4 on her step sequence in the SP with different technical panels.

Yuna had a tiny visible mistake in the SP, so unless someone definitively proves otherwise, I consider the level 3 call in the SP fair.

jenaj · Mar 15, 2014

qwertyskates said:
To me, and many others like DMD, etc., the Complexity Rule is quite clear - it demands greater variety to merit higher levels of grading, no other skater has been scrutinized, quartered and torn apart to this degree in public by an obsessed posse since...oh, Mao Asada! The ridiculousness lies in the endless parsing and never ending fault-finding, more "controversies" "unearthed" and "uncovered" to drive a particular agenda, i.e. to discredit Adelina's win. Notice that Asada has now been forgiven and almost forgotten, if not tenderly remembered, but the very same people who used to rend her performances apart!

Most people don't even have any idea what a mohawk, choctaw or rocker is, let alone the desire to figure out whether a skater has done all of those turns/steps three or five or six times in different directions (and backwards and forwards and upside down??). If you want figure skating to be like chess, where only the cognoscenti can figure out what's going on, then go ahead and defend the absurdity of this and other rules under COP. But soon only the select few will be fans of what used to be a popular sport.

JayW · Mar 15, 2014

jaylee said:
Yuna had a tiny visible mistake in the SP, so unless someone definitively proves otherwise, I consider the level 3 call in the SP fair.

Sorry for my ignorance, would you please point out the "visible mistake?" Many thanks.

jaylee · Mar 15, 2014

JayW said:
Sorry for my ignorance, would you please point out the "visible mistake?" Many thanks.

The one that I saw was right after the brief spiral that she does. That may or may not be what caused the level 3, but that's my guess.

Mathman · Mar 15, 2014

^ Also, do mistakes affect the level? Or just the GOE?

gkelly · Mar 15, 2014

Mathman said:
^ Also, do mistakes affect the level? Or just the GOE?

It depends on what the mistake is, and what else the skater did in the step sequence.

As I recall reading somewhere, Yuna said that she made a mistake in her short program step sequence that caused her to turn a choctaw into a mohawk. If that was the case, and if she needed that choctaw in that direction to meet the "complexity" requirement (as discussed ad nauseam in this thread), then by not meeting that requirement the step sequence would have been eligible only for level 3 maximum.

If the mistake was on an "extra" step that didn't prevent her from meeting the complexity requirement, then the sequence would still have been eligible for level 4, assuming it also met the other three criteria.

JayW · Mar 15, 2014

gkelly said:
It depends on what the mistake is, and what else the skater did in the step sequence.

As I recall reading somewhere, Yuna said that she made a mistake in her short program step sequence that caused her to turn a choctaw into a mohawk. If that was the case, and if she needed that choctaw in that direction to meet the "complexity" requirement (as discussed ad nauseam in this thread), then by not meeting that requirement the step sequence would have been eligible only for level 3 maximum.

If the mistake was on an "extra" step that didn't prevent her from meeting the complexity requirement, then the sequence would still have been eligible for level 4, assuming it also met the other three criteria.

Thanks. Now it makes sense to me. I have to go back and rewatch the SP!

mskater93 · Mar 15, 2014

jand0387 said:
So was that a subject for downgrade?

I believe it was because her 3 sets of steps were NOT performed in both directions

jaylee · Mar 15, 2014

gkelly said:
It depends on what the mistake is, and what else the skater did in the step sequence.

As I recall reading somewhere, Yuna said that she made a mistake in her short program step sequence that caused her to turn a choctaw into a mohawk.

Really? Yuna did say she made a mistake in her footwork, but I don't recall her saying what it was. Others have speculated what the mistake was, but I hadn't read an interview with her detailing it.

JayW · Mar 15, 2014

jaylee said:
Really? Yuna did say she made a mistake in her footwork, but I don't recall her saying what it was. Others have speculated what the mistake was, but I hadn't read an interview with her detailing it.

This thread about FS foot steps made whole lot sense to me, I think it is worth the effort to analyse both SPs from YK and AS.

Analyzing Sotnikova and Kim's footwork in the FS

gkelly

capcomeback

jand0387

TMC

capcomeback

skatedreamer

Vanshilar

drivingmissdaisy

ectomorph

capcomeback

jaylee

jenaj

JayW

jaylee

Mathman

gkelly

JayW

mskater93

jaylee

JayW

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