Analyzing Sotnikova and Kim's footwork in the FS

capcomeback · Mar 19, 2014

I♥Yuna;889071 said:
**ETA-- Took yet another look at that beginning choreo, and as much as I like it, it really isn't the best use of the music, and most of the rest of her program does not make use of the musical nuances, either (jmo, of course lol).

That's my point. The movements need to be precise with the music to be done the way she tried to do them. If not done in perfect rhythm, they just look jerky (which the "Introduction" it is already jerky, so it's like a double dose of jerkiness or jerkiness with an echo. Quite annoying). I would call it fairly ambitious, but ill-advised. the fact that the section was so short, just didn't make the payoff worth it. Again, this is on the choreographer mostly, but Adelina should have realized it was beyond her scope. That being said, the judges didn't realized it (or more likely, had scored her PCS in advance, lol).

Olympia · Mar 19, 2014

I♥Yuna;889144 said:
There are also different schools of ballet Oksana is untrained, but her natural way of moving would be wonderful for Contemporary ballet. Just posted this link on another thread: "Amelia" (contemporary http://youtu.be/ZHU5QLEjGAg?t=1m20s) Oksana (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-50nw3E-LU). What I like best about her movement is the fullness and completion. I also like how she can make shapes transform into other shapes - very seamless and organic.

Caryn's style is beautiful too (classical, like Healy :yes. I always liked her programs, even if they were a little formulaic. That's just my taste tho; I dropped ballet for modern because it was sooo structured and I just couldn't take it anymore LoL (I like my freedom )

I see. Thanks for your explanations of why certain elements worked for you. Your dance experience gives you insights that make for some very interesting points, and I'll keep them in mind as I look again. I'm glad you like Kadavy too. She was one of the slightly-less-than-top skaters who always stood out very strongly to me, because her technique gave her style a grace and flow that brought the music home to me, much the way someone like Alissa or Lucinda Ruh did. Her talent, while not prodigious like that of Michelle or YuNa, was nevertheless definite, clear, and true. I'm glad she was able to take advantage of the pro scene of the time, because she was always delightful to watch.

ILuvYuna · Mar 19, 2014

^Flow

I always liked her music choices and costumes too (my favorite program EVER was Over the Rainbow *sigh* tear-jerker lol :love:

). Like you say, she wasn't a powerhouse, but she was a complete package, and I wish more of the top ladies these days would put the same care and thought into the programs like she did.

Also, one of my favorite things that Caryn did was the spiral

She didn't have the crazy high free leg like they do these days, but she used it so well in all of her programs (I was always waiting for it lol) - it had such a nice lean & curve (and fwd tilt!) across the space, and the lines that she hit were beautiful (like a dolphin).

usethis2 · Mar 19, 2014

capcomeback said:
Here's where I disagree and think that the bonus is stupid. No other sport rewards extra points for doing something when Athletes are more tired. A soccer goal counts as a goal no matter when it is scored. Still, we're stuck with it until that silly rule is removed.

Not only that's dumb (anyone can fake "tired looking") but it's against what the standards are. I thought the more skilled skaters = pulling moves while looking effortless. (can anyone dispute this?) And ironically, if looking tired after a program was the standard, I think Yuna's claim should be even stronger. She looked totally exhausted and miserable after both the SP and the FS. Mao cried after her FS.

To some it has been unrelenting source of dissatisfaction against Yuna's skating that she does things "too easily," even though they wouldn't say exactly that. They would instead say that she has no emotion; her skate is like a business dealing; she "phoned in"; she doesn't smile.. I would then think, "if what she does is so easy then why no one else does it like her?" "She's acting a vampire (or its victim), I don't think she should smile." :laugh:

TMC · Mar 19, 2014

jennyanydots said:
That's why I don't enjoy watching gymnastics that much anymore. High difficulty skills that really push physical limits are well rewarded despite sloppy and ugly execution. Instead of "wow that was amazing", it's now "oh, they survived (cringe), we have our winner?" Apparently figure skating is moving in that direction as well.

So much agreement :rolleye:

Mathman · Mar 19, 2014

capcomeback said:
Here's where I disagree and think that the bonus is stupid. No other sport rewards extra points for doing something when Athletes are more tired. A soccer goal counts as a goal no matter when it is scored. Still, we're stuck with it until that silly rule is removed.

I think the second half bonus rule was put in place to encourage skaters to present a "balanced program" with highlight elements throughout. Before the rule came along, skaters, especially men, would front load their programs by doing all the hard jumps un the first minute, then peter out at the end.

I don't think the soccer analogy is apt because the other team is trying to stop you from scoring, so any time you can get the better of your opponents is just as good as another. But skaters are expected to plan their programs from beginning to end.

ILuvYuna · Mar 19, 2014

usethis2 said:
Not only that's dumb (anyone can fake "tired looking") but it's against what the standards are. I thought the more skilled skaters = pulling moves while looking effortless. (can anyone dispute this?)

I doubt it - it's right there in black and white (http://static.isu.org/media/104183/program-component-explanations.pdf) "effortless flow over the ice" "effortless movements in time with the music" "effortless power and acceleration".

If you're looking exhausted in the middle of your program, I think it should count against you in the performance/execution score.

gkelly · Mar 19, 2014

Mathman said:
I don't think the soccer analogy is apt because the other team is trying to stop you from scoring, so any time you can get the better of your opponents is just as good as another. But skaters are expected to plan their programs from beginning to end.

Good point.
In skating, the "opponents" that the skater needs to fight against are things like gravity, friction, centrifugal and centripetal forces (you have to use them, not let them control you), and fatigue/lactic acid buildup.

You can minimize the latter by being more physically fit, with greater aerobic capacity, and by including more rests and fewer difficult moves.

It's definitely harder to do the difficult moves later in the program, and to make them look effortless. Doing so has always been valued -- now it's explicitly written into the scoring.

I♥Yuna;889257 said:
If you're looking exhausted in the middle of your program, I think it should count against you in the performance/execution score.

Yes, it should.

kslr0816 · Mar 19, 2014

jennyanydots said:
That's why I don't enjoy watching gymnastics that much anymore. High difficulty skills that really push physical limits are well rewarded despite sloppy and ugly execution. Instead of "wow that was amazing", it's now "oh, they survived (cringe), we have our winner?" Apparently figure skating is moving in that direction as well.

lollll yes

capcomeback · Mar 19, 2014

Mathman said:
I think the second half bonus rule was put in place to encourage skaters to present a "balanced program" with highlight elements throughout. Before the rule came along, skaters, especially men, would front load their programs by doing all the hard jumps un the first minute, then peter out at the end.

I don't think the soccer analogy is apt because the other team is trying to stop you from scoring, so any time you can get the better of your opponents is just as good as another. But skaters are expected to plan their programs from beginning to end.

How about a birdie on a par 5 on the 16th hole is worth the same as a birdie on a Par 5 on the 4th hole. In this case, golfers do not have to contend with their opponents trying to hit them with their clubs trying to stop them (though it would be interesting to see. :laugh:

). Anyway, this never existed in the past. If a skater doesn't skate a balanced program, you can always beat up their choreography in the PCS.

BTW, many skaters front-load their bonus jumps in the first half of the bonus (in the FS) and don't do any jumps in the last half of the bonus. What's next? a double bonus to ensure people end their skate with a Triple Flip? Either way, there has to be a better and more logical way to try to get skaters to skate better balanced programs (and to define what a better balanced program is because a minute or so without jumps is still not necessarily better balanced).

Mathman · Mar 19, 2014

capcomeback said:
BTW, many skaters front-load their bonus jumps in the first half of the bonus (in the FS) and don't do any jumps in the last half of the bonus. What's next? a double bonus to ensure people end their skate with a Triple Flip? Either way, there has to be a better and more logical way to try to get skaters to skate better balanced programs (and to define what a better balanced program is because a minute or so without jumps is still not necessarily better balanced).

That is so true. The typical men's program now is quad, quad combo, triple Axel, skate aimlessly around until the halfway mark, then all the rest of the jumps from 2:15 to 2:45. (An exaggeration, but still…) I think this shows why it doesn't work to try to micro-manage a "free" skating program the way the IJS does.

gkelly · Mar 19, 2014

Mathman said:
I think this shows why it doesn't work to try to micro-manage a "free" skating program the way the IJS does.

I guess the question is whether you're trying to micromanage aesthetically effective choreography, or just to micromanage a standardized means of rewarding difficult elements later in the program.

usethis2 · Mar 19, 2014

I am fine with the 2nd half 10% bonus. It applies to everyone and everyone knows ahead. Everyone is under equal notice, and the rationale is not completely ridiculous.

I am also fine with getting rid of it under the same condition.

Mathman · Mar 19, 2014

gkelly said:
I guess the question is whether you're trying to micromanage aesthetically effective choreography, or just to micromanage a standardized means of rewarding difficult elements later in the program.

It's tricky. Whatever you decide to reward, that is what all the skaters will be doing in excess the next season. Remember Biellmann positions a few years ago?

Before the bonus rule, all the men did a 5-3 split in jumping passes; after, it was 3-5. You get what you pay for.

LRK · Mar 19, 2014

If the goal was a balanced program - then in what way is 3-5 really more balanced than 5-3? Shouldn't the ideal then be... 4-4?

Blades of Passion · Mar 19, 2014

The ideal should be jumps spread throughout the program, not two "jump sections" of the program.

gkelly · Mar 19, 2014

Just from an aesthetic perspective, I'm not sure there should be a single ideal, because some program concepts gain their choreographic power from a layout that is different from the norm.

capcomeback · Mar 19, 2014

gkelly said:
Just from an aesthetic perspective, I'm not sure there should be a single ideal, because some program concepts gain their choreographic power from a layout that is different from the norm.

In that way, the bonus seems to take away from creativity because it entices skaters to backload their programs with jumping passes instead of spreading them out more equally. In many cases, this forces choreographers to sacrifice the flow and quality of an overall program in an effort to chase points. I'd prefer to see more clean jumps than tired skaters kissing the ice after trying to rack up extra points.

That's why I'm in favor of dumping the bonus and penalize programs in the Choreo Component for being unbalanced.

ILuvYuna · Mar 19, 2014

^Agree that frontloaded & backloaded = the same difference. They're both unbalanced.

gkelly said:
Just from an aesthetic perspective, I'm not sure there should be a single ideal, because some program concepts gain their choreographic power from a layout that is different from the norm.

This is my feeling as well. Maybe they could do something simple like reward bonus for a jump in the last 10 seconds? LOL. That's nothing to do with balance/proportion, but since most programs do end big, it'd at least be rewarding difficulty at the most taxing point of the program (Like the way Caro was ending Bolero before she changed it? Also, didn't Laetitia Hubert do a nice double axel at the end of "The Piano" short -- I remember loving that program. Have to look for it).

bebevia · Mar 20, 2014

I'm not sure why the backload jumps are discussed here, though interesting, but...

1. I don't mind the extra 10% on late jumps. It's a fact that skaters carry risks in the second half, and...

2. ...skaters, while they'd prefer scorewise to backload jumps, also know that it's still risky. In fact, chasing that extra 10% doesn't garantee 10% bonus, since the risk is about rate of succession. One may, and more likely if the jump is hard (=more points), to fall/UR/step-out/pop/downgrade.

3. For the reason in #2, without the late bonus, more skaters would choose front-loaded layouts; it's keeping many skaters from being too safe.

4. Jump layouts also affect choreography because they are part of it. An unbalanced program means an ugly choreography and presentation. Unbalancing jump layouts does have its sacrifices. (I think the overall balance should be more reflected on scores, though.) If backloading jumps actually is better for a certain choreography, then go for it! Creating such piece should be artistically rewarded, and not to mention, the execution of such a technically demanding piece should be given the score! Of course, attempts and perfection are two other things, and should be reflected accordingly.

5. I sometimes see a program and think, in an artistic perspective, "that jump is unnecessary", "no jumps are necessary", "that would look better singled", "maybe she could pack 111 jumps for this program", "a 2A-2Lo-5T in the middle of those steps would look good...". I digress.

6. But this subject is digressing anyways.

People, this is why we need an artistic figure skating. We need more shows. And we don't have the time and money, sadly. Also, if I had the money and superhuman being, I would love to choreograph a program that features 110 jumps within 5 minutes, arranged in a pleasantly artistic way.

Analyzing Sotnikova and Kim's footwork in the FS

capcomeback

Olympia

ILuvYuna

usethis2

TMC

Mathman

ILuvYuna

gkelly

kslr0816

capcomeback

Mathman

gkelly

usethis2

Mathman

LRK

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

gkelly

capcomeback

ILuvYuna

bebevia

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