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Thread: Analyzing Sotnikova and Kim's footwork in the FS

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by capcomeback View Post
    If it is misinterpretation, please explain how BoP is wrong. I don't hate Adelina. Yes, she comes off as annoying and brash at times, but many young athletes are (and there are far many who are worse). These characteristics are not worthy of hate. I wasn't rooting for her, but I wasn't rooting for anybody who had a legitimate shot at the podium either, so I am clearly unbiased.

    I can understand your frustration as an Adelina partisan. Still, people are offended when they are censured by others who are biased for a particular result. There is a smoking gun here. Whether the smoke was caused by it firing or by a smoker holding the gun is unclear. The ISU (and the IOC for that matter) have some accountability the skating community to address these questions. The more people tell us to shut up, the more we want to talk about it.
    What's the smoking gun? Prove anything your saying? Your extreme hatred of sotnikova "she's annoying" is riduclous!

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    Quote Originally Posted by %uhh View Post
    But you need to factor in Kim's underrotated 3lz, which was given full credit & positive GOE.
    Looked fully rotated to me. Please show me an angle that shows the UR. Typical Adelina partisan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by capcomeback View Post
    If it is misinterpretation, please explain how BoP is wrong.
    Indeed. If there is a flaw in BoP's analysis, just point it out.

    So far, there has been only drivingmissdaisy's comment, to point out any possible flaw in the analysis. And even that is uncertain:
    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    I thought the rule meant that you had to do 5 different turns clockwise and 5 different turns counterclockwise, not that it had to be the same 5. Not saying I'm necessarily right but that was just my understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    What's the smoking gun? Prove anything your saying? Your extreme hatred of sotnikova "she's annoying" is riduclous!
    Why would I "hate" a 17 year old girl i've never met? Your comment is ridiculous. She does come off as brash. She was annoying when she made it impossible for Carolina and Yuna to skate their victory lap, constantly causing log jams that almost caused collisions. it's like a slow trot on a HR to piss a pitcher off (except more dangerous because of a possible injury).

    Still, that is nothing to "hate" another human being for.

    The "smoking gun" are all of the inconsistencies in scoring, the final margin of victory, the appearance of impropriety in the officiating panels etc. Put this together and you get a lot of people screaming Yuna and Carolina got robbed. Did they? I'm not 100% sure, but I know that when I see smoke, I know it's worth checking to see if there is a fire.

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    I will get back to this thread later but I want to thank Blade of Passion for taking on this difficult task. This is the type of analysis (along with the stickied one in Figure Skating Reference forum) I was looking forward to. Big kudos to Blades of Passion and I hope s/he will not be discouraged by the nonsensical twist some try to make on this fine effort.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by usethis2 View Post
    I will get back to this thread later but I want to thank Blade of Passion for taking on this difficult task. This is the type of analysis (along with the stickied one in Figure Skating Reference forum) I was looking forward to. Big kudos to Blades of Passion and I hope s/he will not be discouraged by the nonsensical twist some try to make on this fine effort.
    Thanks for steering me back on topic. I don't like being accused of "extreme hate" for anybody and it bothered me. Hoping to see more analysis from BoP.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    The issue is that the rules of step sequences are being misinterpreted. It has already been pointed out why on the first page.
    Ok... Would you be happy with "Analysing Sochi Ladies' TES, helpful advice and constructive criticism of all analyses welcome - let's help each other to understand COP)"?

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    Assuming BoP's analysis is accurate, if the rule is interpreted as the 5 different types of turns and each of those 5 have to be done in both directions, then she did not do it. If the rule is interpreted as doing 5 different types in each, then she did as she did 6 different types total with 5 different types in each direction. It is not a well-written rule. This is where an equally detailed comparison to Yuna and Carolina's step sequences would be helpful to see if they lost a level by violating only one interpretation or both.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TMC View Post
    Ok... Would you be happy with "Analysing Sochi Ladies' TES, helpful advice and constructive criticism of all analyses welcome - let's help each other to understand COP)"?
    Only of the rules are accurately described and posted and not given a slant that is solely done to discredit sotnikova because of hatred of her and her win.

    Quote Originally Posted by capcomeback View Post
    Why would I "hate" a 17 year old girl i've never met? Your comment is ridiculous. She does come off as brash. She was annoying when she made it impossible for Carolina and Yuna to skate their victory lap, constantly causing log jams that almost caused collisions. it's like a slow trot on a HR to piss a pitcher off (except more dangerous because of a possible injury).

    Still, that is nothing to "hate" another human being for.

    The "smoking gun" are all of the inconsistencies in scoring, the final margin of victory, the appearance of impropriety in the officiating panels etc. Put this together and you get a lot of people screaming Yuna and Carolina got robbed. Did they? I'm not 100% sure, but I know that when I see smoke, I know it's worth checking to see if there is a fire.
    You have posted nothing but hate and its really enough already. You don't even know what smoking gun is. Smoking gun is proof and evedience that a score is corrupt due to undue influence or bias.

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    Didn't Yuna say she lost a level in the short program step sequence? Maybe we should compare the Olympic sp stepsequence w/another competition where she got it right, to see if she missed the right number of turns. If she did, then that might settle the question.

  11. #56
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    My coach (who is a US Regional-level TS and receives clarifications constantly via email and goes to tech school at least 1X per year) understands the rule to be as BoP does - 5 and 3 in EACH direction - when constructing step sequences for her skaters.

    In addition, here is the link to USFS for the rules (only because it's easier to find than the correct communication on ISU's page):
    1) Minimum variety (Level 1), simple variety (Level 2), variety (Level 3), complexity (Level 4) of turns and steps throughout (compulsory)
    2) Rotations (turns, steps) in either direction (left and right) with full body rotation covering at least 1/3 of the pattern in total for each rotational direction
    3) Use of upper body movements for at least 1/3 of the pattern
    4) Two different combinations of 3 difficult turns (rockers, counters, brackets, twizzles, loops) quickly executed with a clear rhythm within the sequence

    With clarification below:
    Types of turns (executed on one foot) : three turns, twizzles, brackets, loops, counters, rockers.
    Types of steps (executed on one foot whenever possible) : toe steps, chasses, mohawks, choctaws, curves with change of edge, cross-rolls, running steps.
    Minimum variety must include at least 5 turns & 2 steps, none of the types can be counted more than twice.
    Simple variety must include at least 7 turns & 4 steps, none of the types can be counted more than twice.
    Variety must include at least 9 turns and 4 steps, none of the types can be counted more than twice.
    Complexity must include at least 5 different types of turns and 3 different types of steps all
    executed at least once in both directions.

    Use of upper body movements means the visible use for a combined total of at least 1/3 of the pattern of the step sequence any movements of the arms, head and torso that have an effect on the balance of the main body core.
    Two combinations of difficult turns are considered to be the same if they consist of the same turns done in the same order, on the same edge and on the same foot.

    Source:
    http://www.usfsa.org/content/2013-14...Difficulty.pdf

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    BoP can be opinionated, but he/she has proved to be a wonderful analyst of moves and layouts, and this evaluation forms a good take-off point for a discussion. Look, Adelina won the gold medal. No one from GS has the power to get it taken away. So what's the harm in examining the ladies' skating programs in detail, as we've done in many past competitions, including the Nagano Olympics and the Battle of the Brians in 1988?

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    Quote Originally Posted by capcomeback View Post
    If it is misinterpretation, please explain how BoP is wrong. I don't hate Adelina. ... ... I wasn't rooting for her, but I wasn't rooting for anybody who had a legitimate shot at the podium either, so I am clearly unbiased.
    ... Still, people are offended when they are censured by others who are biased for a particular result. ... ...The ISU (and the IOC for that matter) have some accountability to the skating community to address these questions about the legitimacy of the judging (especially considering the checkered past of judging in this sport). The more people tell us to shut up, the more we want to talk about it.
    Well said. Wish there was a little thumbs-up icon I could click

    I wasn't really rooting for anybody, either, so I am unbiased.

    It is hurtful to read replies that imply or say outright that I hate Adelina or that I'm a Yunabot or a Russophobe (@ Sky_Fly_: that is the correct spelling) etc. I'm none of those things. I follow men's skating much more than ladies, in any case.

    My interest in this has nothing to do with the skaters and everything to do with fairness and transparency and working together towards a JS with minimum subjectivity and maximum objectivity. Of course I realise that that is a tall order. I'm with USFSA in this: judges' nationalities, names, scores and connections have to become open to the public.

    I want to see FS thrive, not decline even further!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    BoP can be opinionated, but he/she has proved to be a wonderful analyst of moves and layouts, and this evaluation forms a good take-off point for a discussion. Look, Adelina won the gold medal. No one from GS has the power to get it taken away. So what's the harm in examining the ladies' skating programs in detail, as we've done in many past competitions, including the Nagano Olympics and the Battle of the Brians in 1988?
    Programs aren't being discussed here. Only one program is. Only sotnikova is discussed because blades hates her and her win and the isu rule wasn't even posted. The isu rule has been discussed and sotnikova fulfills the isu rule of step sequences level 4.

  15. #60
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I♥Yuna View Post
    Didn't Yuna say she lost a level in the short program step sequence? Maybe we should compare the Olympic sp stepsequence w/another competition where she got it right, to see if she missed the right number of turns. If she did, then that might settle the question.
    In Yuna's SP, I saw one step that ended up being a Mohawk that was supposed to be a Choctaw (and she knew it when it happened, too, you could briefly see it on her face)

    PS: I copied the rules from US Figure Skating's IJS page (because it's easier to find) which is taken from the ISU page AND the like, so looking at BoP's analysis, if he has gotten the steps/turns wrong or missed some, please point those out; otherwise, I don't see where he's "hating on Sotnikova".

    No one has analyzed Yuna's because she got a L3.

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