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Thread: Analyzing Sotnikova and Kim's footwork in the FS

  1. #796
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meoima View Post
    It's true. If Adelina just tumbled in her FS like PChan did, they wouldn't have given her the gold.
    I strongly suspect she still would have won even then. Either that or since Julia skated after Adelina, they would have instead inflated Julia's scores for her less splatty LP (than Chan's, Sotnikova's hypothetical one) and underscored Kim even more drastically to give Julia the gold, despite switching their fixed scores to Adelina from Julia after Julia's SP.

    Either way Russia had to win the ladies gold. Putin had payed far too much money for it not to happen, especialy after the mens gold he also payed for was made impossible by Plushenko's WD and him being the only entry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    I strongly suspect she still would have won even then. Either that or since Julia skated after Adelina, they would have instead inflated Julia's scores for her less splatty LP (than Chan's, Sotnikova's hypothetical one) and underscored Kim even more drastically to give Julia the gold, despite switching their fixed scores to Adelina from Julia after Julia's SP.

    Either way Russia had to win the ladies gold. Putin had payed far too much money for it not to happen, especialy after the mens gold he also payed for was made impossible by Plushenko's WD and him being the only entry.
    1. Sotnikova skated after Lipnitskaia

    2. Either many posters are naive or lack critical thinking skills or I don't know what .... but Sotnikova's scores tell you all you need to know. She could have outright fallen on a triple and still won. In fact, she didn't even complete one of her triples, and that was ignored. She didn't do another jump correctly, and that was ignored. Had she made further mistakes, the scores guaranteed that her margin was enough to overcome those too, had they happened.

    The simple fact is that the results were agreed upon (in some manner) by the ISU and/or contingent of any number of Federations/judges even before the competition took place.

    The scores were basically made up and goal-seeked to match agreed upon outcomes. The scores have no objective meaning on their own. End of story.

  3. #798
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    I strongly suspect she still would have won even then. Either that or since Julia skated after Adelina, they would have instead inflated Julia's scores for her less splatty LP (than Chan's, Sotnikova's hypothetical one) and underscored Kim even more drastically to give Julia the gold, despite switching their fixed scores to Adelina from Julia after Julia's SP.
    But you forgot that only Adelina had the smallest margin with Yuna after SP. It's very difficult to give the gold to Yulia since she had a fall in the SP, even if she skated clean in the LP. Same thing with Adelina, she made a visible mistake but it was not fatal. And if she were someone like Kostner, her PCS would be much more believable, people would think she still deserves the gold because her base value is high so she has room for a little bit error.
    The only one who can come close to the gold at that time was top 3. If they did not pick Adelina, they couldn't pick up Yulia either. If Adelina had a fall, I doubt that they would give her the gold. Because, that would be too much to normal people. Some don't understand the judging, but when they were explained that Adelina had a more difficult program, they say ok we get it. But if she had a fall, it would be more difficult for them to understand. The judges took risks by giving Adelina the gold, but only when she stayed on her feet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meoima View Post
    I know that music and I have watched other skaters performed Adios nonino more than once. For example, Elizaveta Tuktamysheva and Chen Lu. I feel much more when I watch them performed the same music as Yuna.

    When I say Yuna's Adios nonino made me feel flat, I compare her performance to the ladies above. I guess it's the matter of personal taste, then. You might find them sloppier but personally I think they conveyed that music better than Yuna. And it's not just me, I have a friend who also shared my opinion about Yuna's Adios nonino. Yuna was great and her performance were consistent as usual, but we felt flat. And frankly, a bit dull. I think Caro showed us more charm in her FS. That's it.

    Having said that, I disagree with the final placement. Either Yuna or Caro should have won gold due to their SP being much more superior to Adelina, but were both held down on purpose.

    PS: And I have re-watched the ladies event not just 2 or 3 times, but 5 times. At first when I said I like Adelina's FS that day, people bashed me and say I am anti-Yuna and Adelina-uber eventhough I have known Yuna from 2010, and before Sochi I hadn't had a clue who Adelina was (because usually I don't follow ladies as much as men, not fan of the ladies).

    I had thought maybe I was wrong because everyone was crazy about Yuna being robbed. I watched their programs again, and again. I still couldn't place Yuna's performance that day above Adelina's even though after 3 or 4 times watching Adelina, I have fed up with her style.

    If you ask me do I like Adelina's skating style? NO, and I'm afraid that will be never.
    If you ask me do I think Adelina performed better that day? Yes.
    But do I think the final placement was wrong? Yes. I would prefer either Caro or Yuna.

    The only one who I think performed better than Adelina that day is Mao, but she was out of the podium anyway, even if they marked her 153 points.
    It wasn't as impressive like her other programs(gershwin, les mis) at first, but as I watch more and more, I started to recognize the true beauty of her program. To me, it's filled with impressive choreography and step sequences. Moving vigorously doesn't equate difficulty. Yuna became one with the music and played the music. She even presented several tango movements well like 'enrosque', 'voleo', and 'abrazo'. She performed 'nuevo tango' very well. To me, this is the most difficult and impressive program among any other programs from Yuna. Never gets boring even after watching many times.

    At first, I couldn't understand the program and was baffled at her cold looking performance. She could have chosen more enthusiastic music. I also hoped that she would bring back other program like les mis, but I guess Yuna didn't like to bring old programs as she has never done.

    The music is about elegy to late father. Therefore, Yuna's performance is different from ordinary sassy Tango(different from her previous roxanne de tango). It's about a memory of past, most of the performance is subdued, emotions are burning inside, occasionally a flash of lightness and smile, even a little flirtatious, and reflecting the memory of good times. in the end, reminisce of everything: good, bad, ugly.

    Her music was very risk-taking that just little mistake can ruin the whole program as her choreography is structured very tightly.

    I prefer you watching this in 720p. https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BxwL...VnY3lCalU/edit It's a camera-mixed version.

    Let me just clarify about Mao and Kostner. I don't mean to bash or belittle them, but I'm afraid Mao and Kostner don't deserve the first place. I love mao's step-sequence, but her jumps are executed in wrong techniques. I loved Kostner's Ave Maria personally as a catholic. Kostner was very emotional and has good step sequence, but she doesn't have good transitions and her speed before executing her jumps are slower than she was years before. I think she decided to go with consistency rather than the quality.

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    I am afraid I have to disagree, because my first impression is usually right (for me) and it works for me all the time. I feel Adelina lived with her program much better than Yuna at FS that night, and I have rewatched the programs many times to confirm it.

    I am not Mao's fan, but her performance that day was the only one that make me feel the power, the will and the desperation, there was so much in her performance that day, I have to give her credit for that. And it's so ironic because I dislike Rachmaninov so much. Cheesy music to my ears.

    I know you are a dire hard fan of Yuna, so obviously you are biased toward her. I am sorry, but I am not. Her performance at Vancouver is legendary, so maybe I expected too much from her. I guess we can't create the same miracle twice.

    I can't not undo my impression of Yuna's Fs this year. If you ask me why, then simply it the same reply that many people from Fsuniverse has answered: I feel flat. It's like you drink the most expensive wine in the world, and you know it's good, but it couldn't make you want to drink more, simply because the taste is not that exquisite to you.

    I am not a fan of Johnny Weir, but there is one thing I agree with him about Yuna that night: She is the queen, but she was flat. People dare not criticize her, but I have to say that I truly feel flat.

    I do think Yuna could have done much better performance in Sochi, if it hadn't because of the crowd, the judges, the pressure, the injuries...but what's done is done.

    Mao and Yuna, in my eyes, are pretty girls, but not charming women. They gave me different vibe. Mao that day gave me the vibe of the fighter, as she had nothing to lose. Yuna, well, the vibe of the diva, but she was not what she was used to be. Adelina gave me the vibe "I could die for this gold".

    As for Caro, she was much more charming, and I think she is the more refined skater. She is always charming, even when she is off. She has the quality that other ladies don't have: the maturity of a charming women.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meoima View Post
    The judges took risks by giving Adelina the gold
    That wasnt a risk. It probably would have been a risk to their lives to not have done so as agreed upon. We all know what Putin is capable of, as Ukraine, gay people, and others are all rapidly finding out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    That wasnt a risk. It probably would have been a risk to their lives to not have done so as agreed upon. We all know what Putin is capable of, as Ukraine, gay people, and others are all rapidly finding out.
    Well, I don't think Putin actually cared that much about female figure skating. His new wife is also an OGM, a gymnast. I don't think he's a fan of figure skating at all.

    If anything, it's just the Russian Fed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meoima View Post
    Well, I don't think Putin actually cared that much about female figure skating. His new wife is also an OGM, a gymnast. I don't think he's a fan of figure skating at all.

    If anything, it's just the Russian Fed.
    Oh Putin cared. He showed up for every figure skating event except the dance (wonder why, that was the one event he couldnt buy a Russian win for). He didnt do that for most sports.

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    I'm sorry but this whole thread is dumb. If you really think that Sotnikova had better footwork, choreography, skating skills, jumping techniques than Yuna, then you are either 1) not very smart 2) new to figure skating. Why are we even discussing this. I know for sure Sotnikova's choreography for Yuna will be too easy and cheesy, while Sotnikova won't even be able make it through half of the program without falling and catching up with the music. Common sense people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chalk5 View Post
    I'm sorry but this whole thread is dumb. If you really think that Sotnikova had better footwork, choreography, skating skills, jumping techniques than Yuna, then you are either 1) not very smart 2) new to figure skating. Why are we even discussing this. I know for sure Sotnikova's choreography for Yuna will be too easy and cheesy, while Sotnikova won't even be able make it through half of the program without falling and catching up with the music. Common sense people.
    your post is the epitome of why Yuna's fan drove people away.

    First, good performance doesn't have to go along with insane footwork. Even a so so choreography is enough if the skater perform the skate of his/her life. Look at Machida's SP performance at Worlds. His SP choreography itself is a good one, but not a masterpiece like one in the thousand. It's Machida's self-belief that makes the performance shine. So, at this level, it's not just the choreography anymore, it's how you execute it. I don't like Adelina's style, too tacky for me, but there is something people can't deny, she did skate her heart out that night and people can sense that intensity and raw energy from her. And I have to give her credit for that.

    Second, it's subjective and the matter of taste whether people find a performance better than which one. You can't dismiss other taste just because your taste said so.

    It's obvious that Yuna is on another level and Adelina is not a complete skater. But even the queen had her day off and an incomplete skater had her day on. It's normal, and it's sport.

    Personally I disagree with the score for Adelina, her PCS, her GOE were unreasonable high. Her average GOE reward is even higher than Hanyu, the best jumper in the men field, on the day he's clean. I did calculate and I do think her score was unreasonable. But do I feel much from Adelina's performance that day? Yes. She is nowhere near elegant or refined, but who say you have to be elegant and refined to make people admit you skate your best?

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    2) new to figure skating. Why are we even discussing this. I know for sure Sotnikova's choreography for Yuna will be too easy and cheesy
    Well he/she did say "I know for sure"!! Can't argue with facts like that.

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    Yes, Yuna's Adios Nonino was FLAT as day old beer. My own favorite version is Jeff Buttle's, he hit EVERY NUANCE of that gorgeous piece, especially his step sequence and final spin, there was so much to see, so much choreography, so many details.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Piw7wL-RlF0

  13. #808
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyskates View Post
    Yes, Yuna's Adios Nonino was FLAT as day old beer. My own favorite version is Jeff Buttle's, he hit EVERY NUANCE of that gorgeous piece, especially his step sequence and final spin, there was so much to see, so much choreography, so many details.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Piw7wL-RlF0
    You know, I think it's the harm of sticking only to David Wilson. Yuna's programs are always classy, graceful and beautiful but always look the same to me. I don't know but I would rather watch ladies do something more creative. David Wilson's problem is that, once he gets to know the certain skater, he often creates the same program for her/him over and over again. It might suit the skater style, but you shouldn't stay with the same type of success for too long. This I blame David Wilson (I also blame him for PChan, Hanyu and Javi's LP this season). Yuna is not at fault, she did not choreographed this program herself. I hope David Wilson will challenge himself more, recently his works are always miss. I hope to see other HITs from him.

    Anyways, Jeff Buttle is a man, you can't compare him to Yuna. But yeah, masculine move is one of the many reasons I love watching men than ladies. And frankly, sometimes I feel uncomfortable looking at the ladies's behind because their costumes are too much reveal. Oh, Then I think of Shizukawa...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meoima View Post
    your post is the epitome of why Yuna's fan drove people away.

    Second, it's subjective and the matter of taste whether people find a performance better than which one. You can't dismiss other taste just because your taste said so.
    Actually it isn't. The premise of this thread is counting the steps each skater used.

  15. #810
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    Quote Originally Posted by sk8in View Post
    Actually it isn't. The premise of this thread is counting the steps each skater used.
    And it's not the thread about "I know for sure I am right and you are stupid." either

    Lol, sorry for being off topic then. they move the other thread else where I couldn't find it so I have to comment here.

    In the end, it's all coming down to who the judges favour more, isn't it? It has always been that way ever since 6.0 Oksana Baiul won over Nancy Kerrigan with a tedious costume and less technical loaded long program simply because the judges favoured her artistry in the short. It's just 20 years ago and I still remember it.

    Set the math aside, it's easy to say that the judges favoured Adelina's energetic and sporty style so they gave her the gold. And the weird scores for her are just the way they want to say they like her performance that night more than anyone else. I disagree with them, though.

    When som one say, they know for sure A is B and any people who disagree are stupid, what do you expect normal people to think of him and value his opinion? I am on here long enough for people to know I am not a fan of female skaters so whoever won I don't really feel annoyed that much. I only give my 2 cents of thoughts about the event and people say because I disagree with their idol being the 1st and all, then I am stupid.

    Can't argue with facts like "I know for sure I am right and you are stupid."

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