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Thread: Analyzing Sotnikova and Kim's footwork in the FS

  1. #811
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    Quote Originally Posted by chalk5 View Post
    I'm sorry but this whole thread is dumb. If you really think that Sotnikova had better footwork, choreography, skating skills, jumping techniques than Yuna, then you are either 1) not very smart 2) new to figure skating. Why are we even discussing this. I know for sure Sotnikova's choreography for Yuna will be too easy and cheesy, while Sotnikova won't even be able make it through half of the program without falling and catching up with the music. Common sense people.
    pretty much hit the nail on the head.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meoima View Post
    You know, I think it's the harm of sticking only to David Wilson. Yuna's programs are always classy, graceful and beautiful but always look the same to me. I don't know but I would rather watch ladies do something more creative. David Wilson's problem is that, once he gets to know the certain skater, he often creates the same program for her/him over and over again. It might suit the skater style, but you shouldn't stay with the same type of success for too long. This I blame David Wilson (I also blame him for PChan, Hanyu and Javi's LP this season). Yuna is not at fault, she did not choreographed this program herself. I hope David Wilson will challenge himself more, recently his works are always miss. I hope to see other HITs from him.

    Anyways, Jeff Buttle is a man, you can't compare him to Yuna. But yeah, masculine move is one of the many reasons I love watching men than ladies. And frankly, sometimes I feel uncomfortable looking at the ladies's behind because their costumes are too much reveal. Oh, Then I think of Shizukawa...
    I did opine that about the choreography before Sochi, after watching her Zagreb performance. I thought it was weak choreography that made it SO FLAT. Yes, Buttle is a man and his strength cannot be compared, but just look at the expressiveness of the step sequence and the perfect pitch of his steps and his spins timed to the music for maximum effect at the end, nothing remotely flat about that mesmerizing performance. So those who claim that we "don't know the music" should just take a good look at Buttle's interpretation. These same moves and steps could have been delivered by Yuna, and I think she would have deserved a better result even with the same technical layout. Her stsq would at least be a 4, Buttle's here is a real beauty.

    Her fans insist that Adios cannot be performed with strong expressions, power or lots of details, that it should be languid and slow, with lots of coy poses....ugh...but the piece is full of musical nuances, it really takes a great like Buttle or a Chan to express them. I agree with you that Tuk's and Lu's were better too, but Buttle's the best at skating to the piece with sheer brilliance, imho.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meoima View Post
    In the end, it's all coming down to who the judges favour more, isn't it? It has always been that way ever since 6.0 Oksana Baiul won over Nancy Kerrigan with a tedious costume and less technical loaded long program simply because the judges favoured her artistry in the short. It's just 20 years ago and I still remember it.

    Set the math aside, it's easy to say that the judges favoured Adelina's energetic and sporty style so they gave her the gold. And the weird scores for her are just the way they want to say they like her performance that night more than anyone else. I disagree with them, though.
    Eh, the judges just "happened" to favor Russians that day. They also really, really "liked" Lipniskaia's sad and forlorn style.

    I agree that Adios seemed rather muted to me and I thought the music cut was incoherent. Wilson's programmes this year have all be blergh. However, some part of me wonders if Adios is one of those pieces that grow on you after repeated viewing as opposed to one of those warhorse pieces that sucks you in right away.

  4. #814
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilahozi View Post
    Eh, the judges just "happened" to favor Russians that day. They also really, really "liked" Lipniskaia's sad and forlorn style.
    I agree that Adios seemed rather muted to me and I thought the music cut was incoherent. Wilson's programmes this year have all be blergh. However, some part of me wonders if Adios is one of those pieces that grow on you after repeated viewing as opposed to one of those warhorse pieces that sucks you in right away.
    I have google Yuna's long program for some reviews and the review is kind of various. Some people said they like it. Some said it was boring and weak. Whether people like the program or not, it depends on people taste. Personally I think if her long program this season is truly great as her fans claim, then the overall impression of the majority (who are not her fans, not hatters) should be: "wow, wonderful, memorable..." But it's not. Some like it, some don't. Overall I think it's a good program, but not a hit like we always expect from a big name. And I think it's David Wilson's fault. Thanks to him, all the big names this season have all the lackluster programs.

    As for the judging at Sochi, it's so obvious the score was rigged. But my thought is, even if ISU agree to show us who give which scores, the judges can always use the reason that they simply favored Adelina's energetic program. The tech panel can always say that, oh, we are sorry, we made some mistake at the step sequence, we forgot a call on Adeline's wrong edge, but even with those mistakes, her score is still higher. About the drastic raise of PCS, they can always reply: "she has improved a lot, we see that with out bare eyes." End of story.

    Unless the judges admit they rigged the scores, like what happened in Salt Lake City, or there is any documents, emails, video tape, records show that they were planning to cheat from the beginning, otherwise we can do nothing to prove.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lilahozi View Post
    However, some part of me wonders if Adios is one of those pieces that grow on you after repeated viewing as opposed to one of those warhorse pieces that sucks you in right away.
    That may be the case. The problem is that she didn't present the program often enough this season to allow it to grow on the judging panel. She needed something with a "wow" factor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    That may be the case. The problem is that she didn't present the program often enough this season to allow it to grow on the judging panel. She needed something with a "wow" factor.
    I think this is exactly what happened. Adelina's two skates were very impressive at that moment in time (yet don't hold up when you scrutinize them with hindsight bias) while Yuna was underwhelming at the time though after repeated viewing her talent becomes much clearer. Either way, Adelina was, superficially at least, much crisper than Yuna in almost every sense. Compare Adios to even Les Mis last year; Yuna had gotten much less crisp, esp. in her jumps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chalk5 View Post
    I'm sorry but this whole thread is dumb. If you really think that Sotnikova had better footwork, choreography, skating skills, jumping techniques than Yuna, then you are either 1) not very smart 2) new to figure skating. Why are we even discussing this. I know for sure Sotnikova's choreography for Yuna will be too easy and cheesy, while Sotnikova won't even be able make it through half of the program without falling and catching up with the music. Common sense people.
    One of the main reasons Yuna lost is because her choreography wasn't complex enough. Don't you think if Yuna could do fewer than 6 back-crossovers to set up her 3-3 she would have? Adelina did two and more complex turns into the same 3-3. If you cannot see that you are either 1) not very smart 2) new to figure skating.

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    3Lo 2A3T counter argument and overall Technical Analysis & GoE Comparison & PCS.pptx
    https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bxaz...NvNTJqdHdlMkE/

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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    One of the main reasons Yuna lost is because her choreography wasn't complex enough. Don't you think if Yuna could do fewer than 6 back-crossovers to set up her 3-3 she would have? Adelina did two and more complex turns into the same 3-3. If you cannot see that you are either 1) not very smart 2) new to figure skating.
    Ah, I have the perfect rebuttal, but let me first go look up some powerpoint slides for counter arguments....

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    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyskates View Post
    Ah, I have the perfect rebuttal, but let me first go look up some powerpoint slides for counter arguments....
    Well if it's in Powerpoint it must be true

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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    Well if it's in Powerpoint it must be true
    Well, I have 10 websites that say the Powerpoint is true, and also Katarina Witt said Powerpoint is true. So Powerpoint must be true.

    Therefore Yuna wins, I win and you're an idiot.

  12. #822
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    Quote Originally Posted by Procrastinator View Post
    I think this is exactly what happened. Adelina's two skates were very impressive at that moment in time (yet don't hold up when you scrutinize them with hindsight bias) while Yuna was underwhelming at the time though after repeated viewing her talent becomes much clearer. Either way, Adelina was, superficially at least, much crisper than Yuna in almost every sense. Compare Adios to even Les Mis last year; Yuna had gotten much less crisp, esp. in her jumps.
    Disagree. The "Kim might've won if she presented her programs more" argument is a b.s. excuse. Asada and Kostner both presented their programs throughout the season, and didn't score as many points as they deserved. The cards were stacked in favor of the Russian skaters.

    I think Sotnikova had a very gusty, energetic skate, but I don't think she was "crisp" at all (or perhaps our definitions of crisp differ). I think her skating is raw, abandoned, and strong, but also rough. Her jumps don't flow with the rest of her choreography, and she flails about in the middle of her LP.

    Despite hitting the snooze button throughout Adios Nonino and being perplexed at the music cut, I think it's a slap in the face to Kim to say that she chose an easy program or that her choreography wasn't complex enough. She's repeatedly stated that Adios is the hardest program she's skated and she thought of switching programs due to the difficulty. You might not like her presentation, but you can't say the difficulty of the choreography wasn't there. Every move flowed into one another, and there was no "blank periods" where Kim took a rest by skating around aimlessly (like Kostner did in Bolero and several other skaters in their LPs).

    On a side note, I would hate to see skaters discouraged from opting for more nuanced and subtle programs in the future because they'll get dinged in favor of rowdy programs that bash the viewers over their heads with energy. From the feedback that Adios Nonino received, I'm afraid that might be the case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyskates View Post
    Well, I have 10 websites that say the Powerpoint is true, and also Katarina Witt said Powerpoint is true. So Powerpoint must be true.

    Therefore Yuna wins, I win and you're an idiot.
    Well, I have 10 websites that say Powerpoint isn't true, and Tara Lipinski and Johnny Weir agree with me, so Powerpoint must not be true! Thus, Sotnikova wins, I win, and you're the bigger idiot.

  14. #824
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    I understand your points but calling people's opinions B.S. really is a fruitless endevour.
    The "Kim might've won if she presented her programs more" argument is a b.s. excuse.
    That's great you were over the moon for her performance

    Not everyone was. I think that is ok. No need to insult people over it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lilahozi View Post
    Disagree. The "Kim might've won if she presented her programs more" argument is a b.s. excuse. Asada and Kostner both presented their programs throughout the season, and didn't score as many points as they deserved. The cards were stacked in favor of the Russian skaters.

    I think Sotnikova had a very gusty, energetic skate, but I don't think she was "crisp" at all (or perhaps our definitions of crisp differ). I think her skating is raw, abandoned, and strong, but also rough. Her jumps don't flow with the rest of her choreography, and she flails about in the middle of her LP.

    Despite hitting the snooze button throughout Adios Nonino and being perplexed at the music cut, I think it's a slap in the face to Kim to say that she chose an easy program or that her choreography wasn't complex enough. She's repeatedly stated that Adios is the hardest program she's skated and she thought of switching programs due to the difficulty. You might not like her presentation, but you can't say the difficulty of the choreography wasn't there. Every move flowed into one another, and there was no "blank periods" where Kim took a rest by skating around aimlessly (like Kostner did in Bolero and several other skaters in their LPs).

    On a side note, I would hate to see skaters discouraged from opting for more nuanced and subtle programs in the future because they'll get dinged in favor of rowdy programs that bash the viewers over their heads with energy. From the feedback that Adios Nonino received, I'm afraid that might be the case.
    http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BiHS8YsCYAAinWl.jpg:medium

    See the difference.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2W9iAl6WKM
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoJcD0-tHuQ

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