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Thread: Analyzing Sotnikova and Kim's footwork in the FS

  1. #841
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilahozi View Post
    Well, I have 10 websites that say Powerpoint isn't true, and Tara Lipinski and Johnny Weir agree with me, so Powerpoint must not be true! Thus, Sotnikova wins, I win, and you're the bigger idiot.
    Actually, you showed "originality" in your thinking by mimicking and copying others. Can't you come up with your own put-downs? Like Yuna's performance, It falls really flat because it isn't even underpinned by any truth or meaning.

    Most of us here didn't need to run to some site with lots of Powerpoint slides to PROVE something, as a cache of resource to let those without knowledgeable opinions to spread them en mass. We had points to make and we made it right here, right now.

    There have been NO Pro-Adelina sites that are set up to tear down Yuna.

    We also don't feel any need to insult others like Yuna fans do, to call Adelina "Beast", send her death threats, denigrate Putin and Russian judges and doing childish name-calling of those who appreciated her Sochi performance "Idiots", "Dumb", "Skating Novice", etc., to state our opinions.

    We simply pointed out what we observed to have a proper discussion.

    These desperate, rude, and mean-spirited posts just reflect badly on Yuna fans.

    On a side note, I would hate to see skaters discouraged from opting for more nuanced and subtle programs in the future because they'll get dinged in favor of rowdy programs that bash the viewers over their heads with energy. From the feedback that Adios Nonino received, I'm afraid that might be the case.
    The problem isn't with Yuna picking a piece that has more nuances. The problem is that she was UNABLE to deliver and hit those nuances, the way Buttle, Chen Lu, Virtue & Moir, and many of those who performed to Adios Nonino DID, and won or were remembered for.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I743ruTwUlk

    Listen to the commentary till the end about how Virtue & Moir carried the audience with them.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxlMDroBT3s

    Surely after seeing those performances in the past she must understand that her interpretation wasn't enough?

    It is a very difficult piece, extremely beautiful, emotionally varied and very difficult to express, and if not properly performed to by hitting all the nuances in the piece would make the lack in choreography and musicality painfully obvious, and the performance FLAT in contrast to the music with its ebb and flow, diverse pace, different momentum.

    Buttle's and Virtue & Moir's versions made it very clear - every nuanced note had to be hit. The performers have to be completely, deeply immersed in the music. It isn't at all a slow piece for coy posing, or for setting up jumps - the music doesn't tolerate pauses and lack of moves, or failure to deliver to the audience by carrying them along on the emotional aspects.

    Jeff Buttle didn't even manage to perform at the same level of quality across the competitions, and he took a lot of time to finesse his performance over 2 years. It was also his swan song and he put so much heart into it. From the moment the music started, you could see from his face that he was already in a different place. Adios N is truly artistically demanding, I can understand why Yuna chose it as her vehicle for showcasing her artistry and to grab those PCS.

    Vancouver's "Gershwin" Yuna would have been able to perform Adios in such a way.

    And she SHOULD have switched, if Wilson's choreography isn't up to that, she would have secured her win better by skating to an easier piece where her range of expression and need for cross-overs to set up her jumps do not appear to be as obvious in contrast to the music.

    For example, Les Miserables or Phantom of the Opera would have been easier.

    If it makes you feel better I don't think Sochi's Adelina could have delivered Adios Nonino either.

  2. #842
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    Quote Originally Posted by chalk5 View Post
    I totally get your point of view. But the thing is the whole judging thing seems to screwed that I tend to go overboard to criticize Adelina. I think she would of won a respectful Silver, and a worthy bronze, but there are some things that need to be criticized about this whole figure skating thing in Sochi.

    If you really watch Adios carefully, perhaps when you are having a gloomy day, the piece really tells you a story more than anything else. Even a little tightness in one of her jumps shows that she is human and for me it really kept me entertained because I felt I was skating with her. I feel that this is something Adelina needs to work on along with cleaning up her landings. She has years to mature, and I think this is where they cut her career short. And I'm sure of it.

    Do you think Adelina could have performed Yuna's Adios with all the artistry and tightly packed moves and choreography? And do you think Yuna could of done the extra triple in Adelina's piece? I don't know, thinking about it makes me weird. They just don't seem right. I guess the point is that it's not about the exercise and it's not all about the artistry either as skating should be. But why was it all about the exercise in Sochi?

    Would you rather see a beautiful slam dunk by Michael Jordan or growing and maturing College Star who has years to come before being comfortable in his own shoes?
    I think this is the fallacy of the Yuna fan's argument. I have no doubt that the majority of the judging panel preferred watching Carolina's and Yuna's programs over Adelina's. However, their job is to objectively judge an athletic event; it doesn't matter at all whether they would "rather see a beautiful slam dunk by Michael Jordan or growing and maturing College Star." Adelina had the highest BV of the three by an impressive margin and delivered all but one element flawlessly. If you prefer a program with fewer transitions, that is fine (I do as well), but you have to reward the skater who actually does them and is able to balance the difficult jump entries and solid execution of the elements. It's an athletic competition and the person who did the most won.

  3. #843
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    I think this is the fallacy of the Yuna fan's argument. I have no doubt that the majority of the judging panel preferred watching Carolina's and Yuna's programs over Adelina's. However, their job is to objectively judge an athletic event; it doesn't matter at all whether they would "rather see a beautiful slam dunk by Michael Jordan or growing and maturing College Star." Adelina had the highest BV of the three by an impressive margin and delivered all but one element flawlessly. If you prefer a program with fewer transitions, that is fine (I do as well), but you have to reward the skater who actually does them and is able to balance the difficult jump entries and solid execution of the elements. It's an athletic competition and the person who did the most won.
    If the judges are supposed to be objectively judging this event as you say they should be, then shouldn't they also be immune to "crowd support" and enthusiasm in their scoring?

  4. #844
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    The problem isn't with Yuna picking a piece that has more nuances. The problem is that she was UNABLE to deliver and hit those nuances, the way Buttle, Chen Lu, Virtue & Moir, and many of those who performed to Adios Nonino DID, and won or were remembered for.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I743ruTwUlk

    Listen to the commentary till the end about how Virtue & Moir carried the audience with them.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxlMDroBT3s

    Surely after seeing those performances in the past she must understand that her interpretation wasn't enough?

    It is a very difficult piece, extremely beautiful, emotionally varied and very difficult to express, and if not properly performed to by hitting all the nuances in the piece would make the lack in choreography and musicality painfully obvious, and the performance FLAT in contrast to the music with its ebb and flow, diverse pace, different momentum.

    Buttle's and Virtue & Moir's versions made it very clear - every nuanced note had to be hit. The performers have to be completely, deeply immersed in the music. It isn't at all a slow piece for coy posing, or for setting up jumps - the music doesn't tolerate pauses and lack of moves, or failure to deliver to the audience by carrying them along on the emotional aspects.

    Jeff Buttle didn't even manage to perform at the same level of quality across the competitions, and he took a lot of time to finesse his performance over 2 years. It was also his swan song and he put so much heart into it. From the moment the music started, you could see from his face that he was already in a different place. Adios N is truly artistically demanding, I can understand why Yuna chose it as her vehicle for showcasing her artistry and to grab those PCS.
    Lu Chen's SP was IMO no way NEAR close to Yuna's FS. First off, you're comparing a SP to a LP, where there are 5 more elements to fill, and 1 minute and 30 seconds more to skate on the ice. This is like comparing 100M dash and 400M dash in track. You CANT consider both to be the SAME. Second, Lu Chen has less interesting transitions in almost every single jump of hers. For a SP, it needed to attack more. Lu telegraphs her double axel for nearly 6 seconds. An Ina Bauer or a spread eagle would've been nice. Lu also has less speed and ice coverage for a SP. The music parts are also different, as Lu chen chose more tango parts of the music while Yuna focused heavily on the subtle parts.

    and are you seriously comparing Yuna to V&M? Ice dancers? Give it a rest.

    Jeff Buttle. I like his program, and his was the first one I watched when I heard Yuna was doing Adios Nonino. But like Lu, it's a SP.



    And she SHOULD have switched, if Wilson's choreography isn't up to that, she would have secured her win better by skating to an easier piece where her range of expression and need for cross-overs to set up her jumps do not appear to be as obvious in contrast to the music.

    For example, Les Miserables or Phantom of the Opera would have been easier.

    If it makes you feel better I don't think Sochi's Adelina could have delivered Adios Nonino either.
    Why should she switch? She achieved everything that she wanted, and there are no such things that she demands. If she really wanted a Gold medal at Sochi, she wouldn't protested right away, but she didn't. Yuna wanted to skate a program that she truly wanted to skate, and she still got silver as a result (debatable, but still an astonishing achievement). Yuna challenged herself when she took this music, so what makes you think you can question her decision?


    It's an athletic competition and the person who did the most won.
    Then why is there a thing called PCS

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    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyskates View Post
    Actually, you showed "originality" in your thinking by mimicking and copying others. Can't you come up with your own put-downs? Like Yuna's performance, It falls really flat because it isn't even underpinned by any truth or meaning.

    Most of us here didn't need to run to some site with lots of Powerpoint slides to PROVE something, as a cache of resource to let those without knowledgeable opinions to spread them en mass. We had points to make and we made it right here, right now.

    There have been NO Pro-Adelina sites that are set up to tear down Yuna.

    We also don't feel any need to insult others like Yuna fans do, to call Adelina "Beast", send her death threats, denigrate Putin and Russian judges and doing childish name-calling of those who appreciated her Sochi performance "Idiots", "Dumb", "Skating Novice", etc., to state our opinions.

    We simply pointed out what we observed to have a proper discussion.

    These desperate, rude, and mean-spirited posts just reflect badly on Yuna fans.
    I merely used your argument to show how it applies to the other side equally. Your original post is a classic example of the pot calling the kettle black.

    Oh please, let's not pretend the Adelina supporters are all saints who are able to argue logically in a reasonable manner. I've seen several of these posters run to NYTimes and use Lipiniski and Weir's opinions to prove their argument, gleefully extolling the fact that Kim didn't receive the gold, make generalized, racist comments about South Koreans, call Kim a lazy, uninspired skater who didn't try hard enough for the Olympics, and and make ill-mannered remarks at anyone who liked her LP. Adelina fans can be just as mean-spirited, desperate, and rude as the worst Yuna fans.

  6. #846
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melon View Post
    Lu Chen's SP was IMO no way NEAR close to Yuna's FS. First off, you're comparing a SP to a LP, where there are 5 more elements to fill, and 1 minute and 30 seconds more to skate on the ice. This is like comparing 100M dash and 400M dash in track. You CANT consider both to be the SAME. Second, Lu Chen has less interesting transitions in almost every single jump of hers. For a SP, it needed to attack more. Lu telegraphs her double axel for nearly 6 seconds. An Ina Bauer or a spread eagle would've been nice. Lu also has less speed and ice coverage for a SP. The music parts are also different, as Lu chen chose more tango parts of the music while Yuna focused heavily on the subtle parts.

    and are you seriously comparing Yuna to V&M? Ice dancers? Give it a rest.

    Jeff Buttle. I like his program, and his was the first one I watched when I heard Yuna was doing Adios Nonino. But like Lu, it's a SP.





    Why should she switch? She achieved everything that she wanted, and there are no such things that she demands. If she really wanted a Gold medal at Sochi, she wouldn't protested right away, but she didn't. Yuna wanted to skate a program that she truly wanted to skate, and she still got silver as a result (debatable, but still an astonishing achievement). Yuna challenged herself when she took this music, so what makes you think you can question her decision?




    Then why is there a thing called PCS
    Are you even reading my post properly? I was talking about the FLATNESS of Yuna's performance in not capturing the nuances of the music, which can be judged and compared whether it is a short or long program. Plus this thread is about her stsq, so of course it is fair to compare the steps and moves to the music by Buttle, Virtue & Moir regardless of the length of the program. If Yuna had shown even SOME MOMENTS of performance intensity at the level of what Buttle did for his SP, or the passion of V&M, then we wouldn't be calling her performance FLAT.

    Yuna's fans insist that Adios Nonino should be performed in the quiet way like Yuna but others have performed with much more complexity to the variations in the music and won. This is about different interpretation of the music, and my opinion is that Buttle's, V&M (and even Chen Lu's to a lesser extent) were more emotionally gripping and mesmerizing.

    This has nothing to do with her jumps, but the essence of her performance of the piece, or lack thereof.

    If she had wanted that gold medal then she can't deliver a deadpan performance for a piece like Adios Nonino and expect to win via higher PCS.

  7. #847
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    Where can I find other versions of Adelina's FS? With other camera angles?

  8. #848
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyskates View Post
    Are you even reading my post properly? I was talking about the FLATNESS of Yuna's performance in not capturing the nuances of the music, which can be judged and compared whether it is a short or long program. Plus this thread is about her stsq, so of course it is fair to compare the steps and moves to the music by Buttle, Virtue & Moir regardless of the length of the program. If Yuna had shown even SOME MOMENTS of performance intensity at the level of what Buttle did for his SP, or the passion of V&M, then we wouldn't be calling her performance FLAT.

    This has nothing to do with her jumps, but the essence of her performance of the piece, or lack thereof.

    If she had wanted that gold medal then she can't deliver a deadpan performance and expect to win via higher PCS.
    wait.. nuances like waving to the judges??

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    Quote Originally Posted by cooper View Post
    wait.. nuances like waving to the judges??
    Did Adelina perform Adios Nonino too? If she did do refer me to a video!

    Very clever of Adelina to pick a feisty, humorous, light, prancing piece that allows her to showcase her youthful vitality and spontaneity. And yes, she did pick up the nuances of her piece, lots of details in her moves, which I'm sure you didn't care to see.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cooper View Post
    wait.. nuances like waving to the judges??
    No, nuances like continuously caressing her chin and cheek like Yuna does throughout her program instead of doing complex turns.

  11. #851
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyskates View Post
    Did Adelina perform Adios Nonino too? If she did do refer me to a video!
    different skater.. different interpretation.. different choreography... different situation.. different music cuts..

    let's compare skaters who competed that night.. adelina skated to a junior program that beat the mature program of yuna.. the 8 triples of mao... and kosnter's bolero..

    how in the world did adelina almost beat yuna in the SP?? https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=K23m2QUOHvY

    injustice

    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    No, nuances like continuously caressing her chin and cheek like Yuna does throughout her program instead of doing complex turns.
    complex turns?? what's so complex with that program??

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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    No, nuances like continuously caressing her chin and cheek like Yuna does throughout her program instead of doing complex turns.
    Yes, this irked me too...the coy posing....how is it better than Caro swiveling her hips

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    Quote Originally Posted by lilahozi View Post
    If the judges are supposed to be objectively judging this event as you say they should be, then shouldn't they also be immune to "crowd support" and enthusiasm in their scoring?
    The judges are human, and of course are influenced by these things, along with whether they actually like the program and the skater.

  14. #854
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyskates View Post
    Are you even reading my post properly? I was talking about the FLATNESS of Yuna's performance in not capturing the nuances of the music, which can be judged and compared whether it is a short or long program.
    Nuance : a subtle difference in colour, meaning, tone, etc; a shade or graduation, a subtle difference in or shade of meaning, expression, or sound.
    Yuna captured the FULL nuance of the MUSIC of ADIOS NONINO, a MEMORY of PIAZOLLA's FATHER. Passionate, yet has tragedy. AND YES YOU CAN compare short program and long program. It takes more energy, stamina, time, effort, skill, and mentality in long program than short. It's 1 minute and 30 seconds more you have to glide on the ice. If you CANNOT appreciate that, SORRY you're not a true skating FAN.

    Plus this thread is about her stsq, so of course it is fair to compare the steps and moves to the music by Buttle, Virtue & Moir regardless of the length of the program.
    Oh is that why you wrote a LENGTHY paragraphs about how you think Yuna killed the music by not interpreting the music itself during Stsq? Read what you write.

    If Yuna had shown even SOME MOMENTS of performance intensity at the level of what Buttle did for his SP, or the passion of V&M, then we wouldn't be calling her performance FLAT
    For 10000th time, What Yuna performed was the SUBTLE part of the Adios Nonino, which you're trying to avoid. Before you criticize a program, OR A SKATER, learn the MEANING of the Music FIRST PLEASE.

    Oh and you contradicted yourself. "plus this thread is about her stsq" and you talk about performance intensity? Do you even think before you write this kind of stuff?

    This has nothing to do with her jumps, but the essence of her performance of the piece, or lack thereof.
    Yuna's jumps are THREADED in her program, hence why many praise her for musicality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cooper View Post
    complex turns?? what's so complex with that program??
    You should rewatch it and see how she gains speed with these turns rather than relying solely on crossovers to gain speed like Yuna. Even with the much easier way she moves across the ice, Yuna looked so tired at the end of her LP that her entry and exit into the 2A was the slowest I've ever seen her at the end of a LP, whereas Adelina had great energy to the end. I'm sure you think the sluggish 2A was Yuna's genius way of interpreting the sad music, but it wasn't.

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