Analyzing Sotnikova and Kim's footwork in the FS | Page 61 | Golden Skate

Analyzing Sotnikova and Kim's footwork in the FS

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It doesn't matter what the GOEs or levels are. The whole point of this thread is that the judges and especially the technical panel are not grading what the skaters actually do, they are just making up bogus numbers to validate predetermined results.

I think this is giving to much credit to the bad guys in the ISU hierarchy. They may wish that they can pull enough strings always to get their way, but sometimes the best laid plans go awry. For one thing, the skaters must do their part. At Sochi, the folks campaigning for Julia Lipnitskya were riding high, but they were out of luck when Julia fell in the short program. I am sure that the ISU brass would have preferred for Mao Asada to win a medal, considering that Japan is their biggest cash cow these days, but it didn't work out that way.

To me, the villain is the mindset and corporate culture that invests all power in the national federation. To each event the federation sends its team, comprising athletes, judges, officials, and political strategists, whose job it is to cooperate in the goal of bringing home as many medals as possible. This is the "competition," and what happens on the ice is just one part of it.

It was so telling to me when Ron Pfenning, as a candidate for USFSA President, said recently, vote for me because the other guy is an international al judge. If you kick him upstairs to the presidency, we will lose a valuable asset who, as a judge, can get more medals for US skaters. :/
 

Ven

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And if Lipnitskaia had not fallen she probably would have won, again, no matter what her and the others did on the ice. She is a worse skater than Sotnikova. Neither of them could touch Kim or Kostner, and their PBs right up through the end of 2013 compared to Kim's and Kostner's PBs reflected that. But virtually overnight their marks went from second rate to world class.

It's pointless to change rules for GOE or levels, or analyze how a skater could have done this or that differently, or did they do this or that correctly. None of it matters. Regardless of what any of the skaters did on the ice, certain things were going to be called certain ways in order for the results to come out the way the conspirators had arranged. That's why Kim can do a level 4 step sequence and get graded level 3, and Sotnikova can do a level 3 step sequence and get a level 4. And Mao and all the other skaters can get their jumps downgraded, but Sotnikova's mistakes can get overlooked, and Lipnitskaia's 2As can get a bunch of +2s. Because it doesn't matter what the criteria or rules are, the conspirators had simply determined they would award this and that and as long as you all stay upright here are the results we wish to see and here are the results you will get.
 

Ven

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And I am just going to refer to them all as "the conspirators" from now on. It's naive to think this all comes down to one or two judges, despite how nice and tidy that argument looks. The rabbit hole goes a lot deeper than that.
 

Sam-Skwantch

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How can you ask for fairness when you already yourself approach events with predetermined notions about where people should be ranked and who should place where.

I agree Yulia has nothing on 2013 WC Yuna. Sochi Yuna on the other hand....IMO the door was wide open for anyone in the top to give her a run. I was surprised by Yuna's FS. I honestly expected more.

You say certain skaters would have won even if they simply stayed on two feet. That's just speculation. No different than saying if Yuna skated harder she would have won. You can't prove statements like that. They're just assumptions. Why is one right and the other conspiracy?
 

Ven

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I agree Yulia has nothing on 2013 WC Yuna. Sochi Yuna on the other hand....IMO the door was wide open for anyone in the top to give her a run. I was surprised by Yuna's FS. I honestly expected more.

I don't even know why I bother to respond to you, but here are Yuna's scores for the 2013 WC, where she was "untouchable", and the 2014 Olympics, where she was "vulnerable", according to you.

Yuna Kim
2013 World Championships: 218.31
2014 Winter Olympic Games: 219.11

Apparently in your world, scoring higher means a skater did worse and means they left the door wide open.

I guess you and Speedy and the Russians will just have to trot out some other ex post facto excuse for why the results came out the way they did. Perhaps go back to the 7 triples vs. 6 triples argument? Nope, that doesn't work either, since Sotnikova didn't actually complete more than 6 triples ... bringing all of that up might draw unwanted scrutiny on the scoring.

Hmm...I'm at a loss for helping your argument. Sorry about that.
 

Sam-Skwantch

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I've never disputed that the scores were inflated. On anyone. Including my favorite. Yuna herself got two 10's and her lowest score from one judge was a 9.5:eek: of course I think Yuna had inflated scores too.

Btw- I was referring to the quality of skating. Scores can't really be be compared from event to event as discussed on the last page. Different competition and different skates by the last group can and do influence the final scores. Nothing scandalous about that.
 

Procrastinator

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I still don't know why all of you are still clamoring about a predetermined conspiracy. It just so happened that the judging panel during FS was mostly eastern european / former soviet bloc - of course they were going to gun for Adelina. That doesn't mean Putin paid them. (Though it is worth noting that Lipnitskaia and Sotnikova did receive high scores with different judges on different days).
 

Ven

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Nothing scandalous about that.

Yes, it is scandalous when certain skaters, not known for being strong components skaters, who receive +/- 60 PCS score over and over again, competition after competition, through multiple seasons, all of a sudden have their PCS shooting up to world record territory in the 70s in two events, virtually overnight. As Kurt Browning said, "What, she suddenly became that much of a better skater overnight?"

It's also certainly scandalous that, according the rules, Kim did a level 4 step sequence, but was graded level 3; and Sotnikova did a level 3 step sequence, which was graded level 4.

Further, it's even more scandalous that Sotnikova did not complete her so-called 7th triple, but the technical panel gave her credit anyway.

And on and on.
 

mich2

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I still don't know why all of you are still clamoring about a predetermined conspiracy. It just so happened that the judging panel during FS was mostly eastern european / former soviet bloc - of course they were going to gun for Adelina. That doesn't mean Putin paid them. (Though it is worth noting that Lipnitskaia and Sotnikova did receive high scores with different judges on different days).
Not everyone can afford summer holidays.
 
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And I am just going to refer to them all as "the conspirators" from now on. It's naive to think this all comes down to one or two judges, despite how nice and tidy that argument looks. The rabbit hole goes a lot deeper than that.

To me, these vast conspiracies are not as vast or well-coordinated as it sometimes appears. I think there is a lot of tugging and pulling in different directions behind the scenes.

As Aragorn said about the orcs, "With these evil folk we do not know when they are in league and when they are cheating one another." :)
 

jenm

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I agree Yulia has nothing on 2013 WC Yuna. Sochi Yuna on the other hand....IMO the door was wide open for anyone in the top to give her a run. I was surprised by Yuna's FS. I honestly expected more.

I disagree. Yulia has nothing on Yuna even in Sochi and the door was not wide open for anyone in the top 5. Maybe for Mao or Carolina with their best but certainly not the top 5 and definitely not to Yulia even in her best. Their skills on almost everything differ by miles. IMO, Yuna's skating was better in Sochi than in 2013 Worlds. It was the arrangement, choreography and the environment that made it seem lacking. But it was not.

Maybe Adios was not your cup of tea or maybe you're comparing Yuna to her old self which in my opinion is unfair to Yuna, idk. But really it wasn't something anyone including your personal favorite could pull off. Not even now. Also, Sochi Yuna includes SITC, not just Adios.
 

Sam-Skwantch

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It was the arrangement, choreography and the environment that made it seem lacking. But it was not.
I have no idea what this means but I'll take your word for it. I'm sure our interpretations on Schindler's vary too :eek:hwell:

I see no point in comparing the two with you. I think your mind is already made up and we clearly disagree on the quality of Adios. I loved SITC btw!!

Yulia faced off against Yuna once and skated the worst performance of her career and some of it too was due to the crazy environment. They all faced olympic pressure and crowd expectations and their own distractions. After all is said and done this is a sport and that stuff can and will happen. Yulia will have to live with it the rest of her life. Hopefully she can grow from it. Meanwhile Yuna has retired . What's the point and comparing these two now? Before Sochi it would have been fun I'll admit.

If you go a few pages back you'll see the only reason I started posting on this thread again was to discuss the scoring of StSeq's and my desire to remove levels and focus on GOE. I'm much more interested in that than comparing a retired skater who I'll never see again vs a young up and comer who seems to be making her way.

While I can respect your views I simply ask for the same in return :)
 

jenm

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I have no idea what this means but I'll take your word for it. I'm sure our interpretations on Schindler's vary too :eek:hwell:

I see no point in comparing the two with you. I think your mind is already made up and we clearly disagree on the quality of Adios. I loved SITC btw!!

Yulia faced off against Yuna once and skated the worst performance of her career and some of it too was due to the crazy environment. They all faced olympic pressure and crowd expectations and their own distractions. After all is said and done this is a sport and that stuff can and will happen. Yulia will have to live with it the rest of her life. Hopefully she can grow from it. Meanwhile Yuna has retired . What's the point and comparing these two now? Before Sochi it would have been fun I'll admit.

If you go a few pages back you'll see the only reason I started posting on this thread again was to discuss the scoring of StSeq's and my desire to remove levels and focus on GOE. I'm much more interested in that than comparing a retired skater who I'll never see again vs a young up and comer who seems to be making her way.

While I can respect your views I simply ask for the same in return :)

I do respect your opinion. Just that I don't agree with it. Respect doesn't mean agreement. I only compared Yuna and Yulia because of your statement that Sochi Yuna was, let's say, lacking so anyone in the top 5 including Yulia could beat her. I like Yulia, she has charm and that angsty aura in her but I do honestly believe that her best ability right now is not even near Yuna (and Caro and Mao as well) so it seems kinda ridiculous to me that a clean Yulia (who pulled her best) could beat a clean Yuna (even not in her best form).

Yuna and Yulia are not even comparable IMO. They both have their owns strengths (Yuna's jumps and Yulia's spins) but Yuna is miles away in almost every aspect of skating. Almost because I'll give Yulia the spins, she's so good with that. But everything else needs to be polished. Also, I read. I just don't comment/post a lot but I know what's going on in here. :) Still waiting for Adelina's stsq analysis.
 

RABID

Final Flight
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Mar 17, 2013
I think this is giving to much credit to the bad guys in the ISU hierarchy. They may wish that they can pull enough strings always to get their way, but sometimes the best laid plans go awry. For one thing, the skaters must do their part. At Sochi, the folks campaigning for Julia Lipnitskya were riding high, but they were out of luck when Julia fell in the short program. I am sure that the ISU brass would have preferred for Mao Asada to win a medal, considering that Japan is their biggest cash cow these days, but it didn't work out that way.

To me, the villain is the mindset and corporate culture that invests all power in the national federation. To each event the federation sends its team, comprising athletes, judges, officials, and political strategists, whose job it is to cooperate in the goal of bringing home as many medals as possible. This is the "competition," and what happens on the ice is just one part of it.

It was so telling to me when Ron Pfenning, as a candidate for USFSA President, said recently, vote for me because the other guy is an international al judge. If you kick him upstairs to the presidency, we will lose a valuable asset who, as a judge, can get more medals for US skaters. :/

Mathman, how then do you explain the lowballing of Mao's Free Skate at Sochi? They scored Adelina like it was business as usual for an elite skater and then scored Mao as if she were some lower tiered skater; "keep it up girl, one day you'll get there".
Did they decide she had no chance after her disastrous Short, so, "let's not waste any marks on her"? :scratch:
 

jkun

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Mathman, how then do you explain the lowballing of Mao's Free Skate at Sochi? They scored Adelina like it was business as usual for an elite skater and then scored Mao as if she were some lower tiered skater; "keep it up girl, one day you'll get there".
Did they decide she had no chance after her disastrous Short, so, "let's not waste any marks on her"? :scratch:

I have two theories:
1. like you said, her short program was so disastrous there was no chance she could medal unless everyone else bombed. They scored her high enough to let her medal if everyone skated really badly, but everyone else skated fine.
2. The Japanese aren't the type to complain much about not being favored. The Japanese will love figure skating regardless of it anyone Japanese medalled. Also, Hanyu had already won gold so Japan had its share of figure skating glory at Sochi
 

drivingmissdaisy

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Feb 17, 2010
Did they decide she had no chance after her disastrous Short, so, "let's not waste any marks on her"? :scratch:

I think it's more "saving the marks" for later skaters. I do not think Mao was singled out in any way because she actually got decent PCS for her disastrous short program when she skated late.
 

Ven

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Well, the results were clearly rigged in order for Lipnitskaia to finish ahead of Mao. That's why Asada was held down and the Russian was inflated, in case Sotnikova bombed, the conspirators were to make sure that one of the Russians got 3rd at least. Had it come to that, you can bet your bottom dollar that Gracie Gold's score would have been fudged a bit lower as well.
 
Joined
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Mathman, how then do you explain the lowballing of Mao's Free Skate at Sochi?

I was hoping no one would ask me that question flat out. :slink:

To me, if we set aside all the back stories and the comparisons to other skaters, I don't think Mao's scores were outrageous. She hit all her elements, she received two under-rotional calls, and the GOEs on her jumps were not generous, giving her a fine and well-deserved total of 73 in TES.

For the program components… :slink: :slink: …she skated with (understandable) caution. The performance was fine (and under the circumstances, remarkable), but was not, IMHO, among the most captivating artistic performances of her amazing career. Olympic judges, more than usual, seem to like it when the skater throws herself into the program with abandon.

However, the point I was trying to make is quite a different one. The ISU might have had something to gain (financial and PR-wise) by hand-delivering a medal to Mao. But the ISU is not really the monolithic cess pool of crooks and pond scum that it is often characterized as. ;) Half of the people in the ISU are half-good, and the other half are half-bad. As in any organization, a lot of the top brass have their own agendas, but my evil agenda may not be the same as your evil agenda. A decree does not go out from Caesar Ottavio that the placements in each event must be this, this, and this, or heads will roll. In real life, it is always more complicated than that.

Just my opinion. ;)
 
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