Analyzing Sotnikova and Kim's footwork in the FS | Page 65 | Golden Skate

Analyzing Sotnikova and Kim's footwork in the FS

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gkelly

Record Breaker
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Jul 26, 2003
I have a question regarding jumps because I'm not an expert (just making my own analysis). How can Adelina's 2A score higher than Yuna's 2A at the end of their programs when she practically did not do anything before and after her jump? Yuna, on the other hand, did 9 different movements (choreo), then jumped her 2A and then did a combination spin like right after the jump? It really puzzles me.

Neither of them did any steps or skating movements movements directly preceding the solo double axel.

Kim

Sotnikova

Kim did hers as the next element after her choreo sequence (the 9 movements you refer to), which was scored as its own element, but there was a break before she went into the 2A, so it wouldn't add any positive bullet point to the jump. I don't think either of them should earn bullet points 1, 2, or 3.

1) unexpected / creative / difficult entry
2) clear recognizable steps/free skating movements immediately preceding element
3) varied position in the air / delay in rotation
4) good height and distance
5) good extension on landing / creative exit
6) good flow from entry to exit including jump combinations / sequences
7) effortless throughout
8) element matched to the musical structure

Sotnikova's 2A looks a bit larger, with a bit more speed in and out (possibly because it's earlier in the program so her legs were fresher). So I can imagine that for some judges the dividing line for point 4 between "good" and "acceptable" fell between the size of those two jumps, and perhaps similarly for points 5, 6, and 7.

Sotnikova does a nice mazurka off the landing of her 2A, step, three turn, spin. Kim just steps forward directly from the landing into the spin. I would say that both those transitions contribute somewhat to the intricacy criterion of the Transitions component, but wouldn't add to the GOE of the double axel. If anything, Sotnikova's might count as "good extension on landing / creative exit," which might account for the couple of +3s she earned for the jump.

I'm not turning on the sound here at my work computer, so I have nothing at the moment to say about point 8.

Personally, I would probably go with +2 for that 2A of Sotnikova's and +1 for Kim's, which does match the majority of the panel.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
How can Adelina's 2A score higher than Yuna's 2A at the end of their programs when she practically did not do anything before and after her jump? Yuna, on the other hand, did 9 different movements (choreo), then jumped her 2A and then did a combination spin like right after the jump? It really puzzles me.

Yuna's final 2A was slow on the entrance and exit. Adelina only got one +1 for hers, which means at most one judge thought Yuna's 2A was superior to Adelina's. There were jumps that Yuna executed better than Adelina, such as the 3Lz-3T combo, and she earned more GOE for it. While Adelina lacks Yuna's speed and distance on some of the jumps, she makes up for it with more complex entrances and superior height. The difference is Adelina get very good speed and distance on her jumps so she still can earn that bullet point, whereas Yuna usually does not do the preceding steps to get that bullet point.
 

flyushka

Rinkside
Joined
Jan 16, 2014
Really? How can jumps with mistakes worthy of deductions score higher than jumps executed correctly and with quality? While Adelina's jumps were high, they were not clean like Yuna or Caro's. Not only did she stumble on one of her combination jumps, she had issues with some of her jumping techniques like fully-forward toe jumps (toe axel), wrong edge and underrotation, not to mention not very good air position. I was also impressed with the height she gets in her jumps but I don't think she should score higher than the person who is practically one of the standards for jumping in women's figure skating and who performed mistake free.

Carolina and particularly Yuna might have cleaner jumps than Adelina *generally* speaking, but I don't find that true on the night in question and that's what we have to look at. All three girls had some shaky jumps. Carolina had two or three in a row toward the end of her program; Adelina had that stumble and Yuna's issues were probably the least visible but still there, especially that second lutz but I also found some of her other jumps lacked her usual flow. Yes, I realize Adelina has a flutz and there is a rotation issue on her combo (close enough to get the benefit of the doubt, IMO). The triple toe is not a real toe axel; it is valid enough on the takeoff. Additionally I found that many of her jumps aside from the combo were very impressive and powerful and better flow than she's ever done. That double axel/triple toe combo was particularly good and was the moment that I first thought she likely had the gold. So aside from the 3/3 combo, where Yuna was indeed better and did receive better GOE even despite a more telegraphed entrance, I don't think you can say that *on this night* Yuna and Carolina had overall better quality jumps than Adelina. Having said that though, check the scores - IIRC Yuna DID receive (slightly) more GOE on the jumping passes than Adelina did. The advantage that Adelina had over Yuna was in the base value, and also in the spin GOE, which was fair.
 

Figure

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 2, 2014
Among the men, yes, but among the ladies? I doubt it... maybe Mao on an extremely good day? Or Carolina on an extremely good day?

She literally flew into her 3-3s. It's amazing.

Oh you reminded me of the lady commentator on the 2009 WC Danse Macabre video saying Yuna jumps like a man. And the other guy commentator says… and better. How amazing is that!

You’re right she literally flying into her 3-3s whether it was 3F-3T or 3Lz-3T. What a spectacular display.
 

jenm

The Last One Degree
Medalist
Joined
Jan 28, 2014
Neither of them did any steps or skating movements movements directly preceding the solo double axel.

Kim

Sotnikova

Kim did hers as the next element after her choreo sequence (the 9 movements you refer to), which was scored as its own element, but there was a break before she went into the 2A, so it wouldn't add any positive bullet point to the jump. I don't think either of them should earn bullet points 1, 2, or 3.



Sotnikova's 2A looks a bit larger, with a bit more speed in and out (possibly because it's earlier in the program so her legs were fresher). So I can imagine that for some judges the dividing line for point 4 between "good" and "acceptable" fell between the size of those two jumps, and perhaps similarly for points 5, 6, and 7.

Sotnikova does a nice mazurka off the landing of her 2A, step, three turn, spin. Kim just steps forward directly from the landing into the spin. I would say that both those transitions contribute somewhat to the intricacy criterion of the Transitions component, but wouldn't add to the GOE of the double axel. If anything, Sotnikova's might count as "good extension on landing / creative exit," which might account for the couple of +3s she earned for the jump.

I'm not turning on the sound here at my work computer, so I have nothing at the moment to say about point 8.

Personally, I would probably go with +2 for that 2A of Sotnikova's and +1 for Kim's, which does match the majority of the panel.

Thank you. That somehow makes it clear. Although I was thinking that Adelina had more preparation/gliding into her 2A. Isn't that travelling somehow? I'm not sure.
While Yuna had very little preparation. She did the choreo and then 2A right after. I was thinking that because Yuna got into her spin right after the jump without putting down a foot or doing any step in between that would count for difficulty.

My personal analysis would be:

Adelina:

4) good height and distance
5) good extension on landing / creative exit
6) good flow from entry to exit including jump combinations / sequences
7) effortless throughout (though if I were to score, I won't add this because her jumps don't look effortless. They looked labored to me.)

so +2 at best (and maybe travelling for that long preparation but I could be wrong of course. if that's correct, then -1 so +1 GoE in all)

Yuna

4) good height and distance (while her 2A wasn't as high as Sotnikova, it was pretty high as well)
5) good extension on landing / creative exit
6) good flow from entry to exit including jump combinations / sequences
7) effortless throughout

so +2 also at best

Both their jumps weren't musical imo.
 

Sandpiper

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 16, 2014
To clarify: I do find Yuna's jumps most aesthetically pleasing because she combines great height/distance with excellent speed into the jump, controlled landings, and good flow out. (I think there's more to jumping than just jumping big). But in terms of sheer height, distance, and wow factor, Midori is unmatched. :bow: There's maybe only a half-dozen men, past and present, who can do a triple axel comparable to Midori's. I don't know if we'll ever see her like again.
 

Alba

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 26, 2014
To clarify: I do find Yuna's jumps most aesthetically pleasing because she combines great height/distance with excellent speed into the jump, controlled landings, and good flow out. (I think there's more to jumping than just jumping big). But in terms of sheer height, distance, and wow factor, Midori is unmatched. :bow: There's maybe only a half-dozen men, past and present, who can do a triple axel comparable to Midori's. I don't know if we'll ever see her like again.

Harding 3Lz was amazing as well.
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
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Yuna found a way to combine the wow of the jump with an equal wow in the landing and especially how consistently she could land it. There are others who can go that big but few who can do it with grace. :bow:

There are a few ladies that I think jump too high and as such lose flow out or fall too often. Elizaveta can launch like a missle but to me she goes maybe to high to be in control consistenly considering her stature. :confused2:

This thread is like a bouncy ball of topics. :laugh:
 

Sandpiper

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Apr 16, 2014
Harding was also an incredible jumper. Y'know, maybe I should take back what I said. If Harding hadn't been such a mess, she could've come close to Midori.

Control, lightness, and flow of the landing is every bit as important as the jump's size. I think this is where, say, Irina Slutskaya fell a bit short. Her jumps were sometimes too big for her to control, and thus went wild on the landing. Whereas her chief rival Michelle Kwan got far less height and distance, but had greater control on the landings. (All the Michelle haters who try to paint her as a deficient jumper seems to have missed this detail).
 

Alba

Record Breaker
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Yuna found a way to combine the wow of the jump with an equal wow in the landing and especially how consistently she could land it.


Forget the artistry etc. This is what I find the most amazing thing about her. :thumbsup:
Simply incredible. :bow:
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
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To me height is but one attribute to measure a jump by and not the most important. It's more about how a skater can weave such a technical feat into a program and almost more importantly weave right back out. As if to say this jump belongs here and no where else. I look for a jump to be held out on a nice edge and for the skater to simply return to the program as if that was a normal thing to do.

Don't get me wrong...I love good height on a jump but not at the expense of the mood of the program.

Someone should just start a thread that disects jumps. :popcorn:
 

AliceInWonderland

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
To clarify: I do find Yuna's jumps most aesthetically pleasing because she combines great height/distance with excellent speed into the jump, controlled landings, and good flow out. (I think there's more to jumping than just jumping big). But in terms of sheer height, distance, and wow factor, Midori is unmatched. :bow: There's maybe only a half-dozen men, past and present, who can do a triple axel comparable to Midori's. I don't know if we'll ever see her like again.

Yes. I feel like, with today's training methods and technology, Ito could have jumped quads more consistently than some men...
 

Sandpiper

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 16, 2014
Ito could pretty much compete against the men in her own time. Among the 1988-1994 men, Boitano, Petrenko, and maybe Orser had a 3A that could top Midori's. Midori's 3-3s were also monstrous. And I still find her leg-wrap jumping technique a bit suspicious... so I have a feeling she could've done even better with today's training. A quad would be no problem, imo.
 

Meoima

Match Penalty
Joined
Feb 13, 2014
Ito could pretty much compete against the men in her own time. Among the 1988-1994 men, Boitano, Petrenko, and maybe Orser had a 3A that could top Midori's. Midori's 3-3s were also monstrous. And I still find her leg-wrap jumping technique a bit suspicious... so I have a feeling she could've done even better with today's training. A quad would be no problem, imo.
Since you are mentioning Ito, this is her performance last year, at the age of 43: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uejr_-fJcUo
 
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