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Thread: Analyzing Sotnikova and Kim's footwork in the FS

  1. #1036
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadya View Post
    No one delivered a gold medal-worthy skate. The Sochi champion in men's event is really a joke title, a decision driven by pure math, not by any degree of excellence delivered on the ice.
    LOL

    Hanyu's SP deservedly smashed the previous WR, and broke the 100-point barrier for the first time in history.
    And his FS, even with a couple of stumbles, was still so technically difficult and well-executed that it scored 178+

    His grand total was over 280, and you seriously think that doesn't deserve a gold medal?
    Or even Chan's 275? How many skaters have ever reached scores that high?

    Your comment is laughable. And typical of the ridiculous hyperbole and exaggeration that litters this thread, and others like it. Not to mention all the Libel - I imagine certain people would be in pretty deep trouble if anybody actually took their nonsense seriously, and decided to sue...

  2. #1037
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    While some of the criticism directed toward Hanyu and Chan has been too harsh, there's a reason many fans don't consider the Sochi men's free a night to remember. The scores--which have been inflating like crazy over the past four years--aren't "proof" that they actually skated well.

    It was a decision driven by pure math. Neither Hanyu or Chan turned out good performances--kinda impossible to do that when you're that messy. Even Hanyu's flawless SP got the scores it did partially through exploiting the points system. I personally prefer Chan's 4-3 combo + solo lutz verses Hanyu's solo quad and 3Lz-3T, but that's not what gets the points (Obviously, Chan deserved to be behind due to his mistake on the axel, so I'm not disputing the scores).

    It's fine if you enjoyed the men's free or at least applaud Hanyu and Chan's efforts. But you're not gonna convince people their performances were great because, OMG, look at the points!!! If anything, the points prove there's a discrepancy between what many fans wish to see and what the IJS actually rewards.

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    Comparing scores is also a joke since everyone with half a brain knows ISJ has seen scores escalate naturally over time since its inception, and they will have to clamp down altogether soon as it getting to the point everyone near the top is getting +3s in GOE and 10s in PCS. If we take scores literally wouldnt Hanyu from Sochi beaten Chan at the 2011 worlds, but I find that hard to believe. His LP from Sochi would also have beaten Kozuka's LP from the 2013 worlds, again hard to believe.

  4. #1039
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandpiper View Post
    I still think this whole conspiracy theory is going too far. Clean Plush (even with two quads in the LP) would have a hard time winning over clean Chan or Hanyu (two-quad LP as well, of course). Maybe winning over an uninspired Chan, because Plush has an extra triple axel, but even that's tough. Hanyu's BV is so high, it's difficult for either Plush or Chan to win against him if he's totally clean.

    Clean two-quad LP Plush would've won against the cruddy Hanyu and Chan of Sochi, true. I dunno if Plush had it in him to do two quads though. If he were completely healthy, sure, but he's been injured, "retired," or both for nearly a decade (hence why he hasn't tried a two-quad LP since Nijinsky, except for Japan Open 2012). Clean one-quad LP Plush (e.g. his Sheffield 2012 skate) has a smidgeon of a chance, but it depends on how he does in the SP and how many points he has to make up. Casual viewers would have no problem with it, but it's not how the points work. I'll be the first to say that IJS is as liable to manipulation as 6.0, but there are limits to what they can do (under either system).

    Plush with two falls isn't gonna happen, but if it does he's got no chance to win even bronze.

    Maybe the Sochi men's free inspired Plush to come back though.
    You are actually attempting to do a strictly skating based comparision to guage how the results would have panned out, which in the context of the Sochi figure skating "competition" (lol at the competition part) is kind of silly and pointless.

  5. #1040
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    Well, I don't think Adelina's win is quite the joke you think it is, so we'll have to agree to disagree? Or maybe you can use Meoima's time machine and speak to the enraged Team Yuna me from right after the ladies' results.

  6. #1041
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandpiper View Post
    Well, I don't think Adelina's win is quite the joke you think it is
    I have a .gif of Sotnikova clumsily stumbling over herself in the LP, with a childlike, bemused "oops, I did it again" smile on her face, that says otherwise.

  7. #1042
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    I'm sorry, but it's this kind of attitude that has knocked me off Team Yuna. I really wish it wasn't so and we could all just enjoy and evaluate the skating.

  8. #1043
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandpiper View Post
    Well, I don't think Adelina's win is quite the joke you think it is, so we'll have to agree to disagree? Or maybe you can use Meoima's time machine and speak to the enraged Team Yuna me from right after the ladies' results.
    I think all the scores in Sochi were a joke, not just Adelina's win. V&T missing both throws and getting +3s in GOE for them. S&S could have skated clean with a clean throw 3 axel and still wouldnt have won gold over V&T with their mistakes. The whole thing was a big Russian party, and nobody else was invited. It was Russian Nationals, held at the Olympics instead. If you watched the Olympic figure skating and didnt get that, well you needed more coffee in you I guess.

  9. #1044
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    I think all the scores in Sochi were a joke, not just Adelina's win. V&T missing both throws and getting +3s in GOE for them. S&S could have skated clean with a clean throw 3 axel and still wouldnt have won gold over V&T with their mistakes. The whole thing was a big Russian party, and nobody else was invited. It was Russian Nationals, held at the Olympics instead. If you watched the Olympic figure skating and didnt get that, well you needed more coffee in you I guess.
    Yep, the judging was fixed throughout all of the figure skating competitions.

    As you mentioned, V/T could have and did make mistakes and still been victorious over anyone else no matter what they did.

    Plushenko's scores in the Team Event were a joke, as was the margin of Lipnitskaia's victory over Gracie Gold.

    The ladies' event was just the icing on the cake.

  10. #1045
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    I should not I am also someone who has defended V&T and their scores (usually) many other times, and have even argued S&S are the ones who in the past had some questionable wins, not V&T (and they still havent as they still deserved their fixed Olympic win based on how all the performances went), and even a couple over V&T themselves that maybe should have gone the other way (2011 gpf, 2012 worlds). So I am certainly not someone who in general prefers S&S to V&T per say. However when you study the protocals of the Olympics, it is quite clear how fixed the whole thing was in every discipline.

  11. #1046
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    I agree V/T and Adelina were overscored, but some of these claims are ridiculous. Two-fall Plush winning over clean Chan (not even any of the Plush mega-fans--myself included--would hand over OGM to him in that case)? Adelina would've won if she fell, and if she fell more than once Yulia would win? Unfortunately, I can't take your coffee advice because coffee doesn't work on me.

  12. #1047
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    We arent implying Plushenko would ever deserve to beat a clean Chan or clean Hanyu. Of course not, who would ever suggest that in a million years at this stage of Plushenko's career. We are implying the whole event was so fixed in favor of the Russians that it would have happened. You seem to be confusing the two. Then again that you seem to be in such denial you dont think anything was wrong, anymore than any normal skating competition, there is no point even going further with you.

    And of course Adelina would have won if she fell. She won by 6 points. If she fell on the jump she badly two footed she would have won by about 3 points still. If she fell on a 2nd she might lose, or might get a further PCS or GOE boost (much more likely) or Yu Na further dumpage in her scores to mantain her win.

  13. #1048
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandpiper View Post
    I agree V/T and Adelina were overscored, but some of these claims are ridiculous. Two-fall Plush winning over clean Chan (not even any of the Plush mega-fans--myself included--would hand over OGM to him in that case)? Adelina would've won if she fell, and if she fell more than once Yulia would win? Unfortunately, I can't take your coffee advice because coffee doesn't work on me.
    Agree. the scores were so obviously rigged but I think the judges would only give the gold to Russians if they stayed on their feet. There would be very little chance of Plushy fell twice so had he stayed he would eventually got the gold without any controversy. They can make mistakes, but stay on their feet is a must.

  14. #1049
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    That Old Plushenko only has to stay on his feet to beat a good Hanyu or Chan, given where his skating is at this stage in his career, is already laughable enough if we are willing to agree just that far. That a skater like Sotnikova or Lipnitskaya merely has to stay on her feet to beat skaters like Asada, Kostner, and Kim is equally, if not even more, laughable.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 05-03-2014 at 12:16 PM.

  15. #1050
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    I understand exactly what you're saying. I don't agree, that's all. The results can be fixed all they want but the athlete still has to deliver. It just so happened that Adelina and V/T made minor mistakes, but not enough to lose them the gold.

    I don't agree with the scores. I don't even necessarily agree with the placements. I agree there is likely some homecooking going on. I'm just saying the claims are exaggerated. I don't think two-fall Plush or Adelina would've have won against clean competitors, no matter how much homecooking was going on. But neither of us can claim for sure what would've happened.

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