Sorry I just don't buy that she went out of her way to avoid competition because she didn't want to be compared with her competitors. I think she didn't compete as much for a whole slew of other reasons. Namely her other commitments outside of skating and the fact that, and this is no secret, that she didn't enjoy competition.
However, that's not the same thing as saying that she was trying to avoid comparison with competitors. I always got the sense her dislike for competition was more an internal thing than anything else, i.e. motivation to do so.
Last edited by Mrs. P; 05-02-2014 at 04:44 PM.
I don't think it's cowardly. It is a smart decision if you have a good enough reputation to pull off not competing and being able to still get high scores. I think the only reason Miki was able to win Worlds in 2011 was because she dominated the entire season and her scores escalated throughout the year leading up to Worlds. Yuna didn't compete at all and was still able to almost win.
When other skaters also skate well the judges have to look at Yuna's programs more closely. Yes, Adelina's PCS was higher that it had been through the season, but the judges had the programs to look at side-by-side. If a judge thought Adelina's PCS was better after watching both programs (and many did), they should score based on what they saw at that moment, not try to judge based on what the skaters received in the past.
FWIW, I can see a case with Adelina winning, not just by the margin she did.
On the plus side, seeing as how Adelina didn't get called on the pre-rotation, it looks like maybe she's starting to work on her 4T, which would be fun to watch.
Certainly I don't expect the judges to be perfect, since they're human after all. But it strains credulity to find that they make multiple mistakes in two skater's performances -- the two that have been analyzed the most so far -- and then justify that by saying "well it's a lot to do and they don't have a lot of time". How many other mistakes did they make that we don't know about simply because we haven't dug into other skaters' performances yet? Either 1) they make a similar amount of mistakes in other performances, and you're saying it's okay that the judges aren't doing their jobs properly despite making multiple mistakes, or 2) the other performances don't have this many mistakes, which then lead to the question of why. Is your position really that it's fine for judges to make multiple mistakes in judging the most important and widely-seen competition in figure skating?
Anyway, I don't think we should insult the skaters (I'm talking about both Yuna and Adelina). If we call Yuna coward or Adelina a cheater or whatever people called her, does that get us anywhere? We should at least respect them and their work regardless of their results or our opinion about this result. It's not Yuna's fault that she couldn\t compete earlier in the season due to injury and it's not Adelina's fault for her marks. Stop atacking the skaters, apreciate at least their effort- Yuna had an amazing comeback, two beautiful programs to end her career. Adelina also improved and skated her best that night. If you are fans of any of them, underline that and discuss the judging and the skating, not the skaters.
Pre-Rotation Questions thread in the Figure Skating References section of this forum.
A degree of prerotation is necessary on all jumps.
Here's what the Technical Panel Handbook has to say about prerotation:A clear forward (backward for Axel type jump) take off will be considered as a downgraded jump. The toe loop is the most commonly cheated on take-off jump. The Technical Panel may only watch the replay in regular speed to determine the cheat and downgrade on the take off (more often in combinations or sequences).Actually, the main thing they have access to is front-row seats to the actual live performance.I agree that "oh this program will grow on you if you watch it a bunch of times" shouldn't really be directly considered in the judging (they obviously don't have time to sit back and reflect on the program over a long walk on the beach). However, I don't agree that "they only have a few minutes to review the elements, therefore judging mistakes are okay." They're judges. They're supposed to be experts at this, and they have access to better video than the blurry youtubes that we're stuck with (or at least I am, let me know if there are high-quality ones out there).
Primarily, they're judging what they see with their own eyes in real time.
Only if a jump looks questionable in real time will the technical panel go back and review the video for underrotations and wrong edges. As noted above, they are not allowed to use slow motion to look for prerotation.
The judges would check video for even fewer jumps than the technical panel. Maybe some judges are more likely than others to check video to confirm what they saw in real time, or to second guess the technical panel calls that show up in their computers after the tech panel reviews. For many the main priority after the end of the live performance would be inputting program component scores.
Oh, I think if you took any two performances, a group of fans with an agenda to "prove" that one skater deserved higher scores and the other deserved lower could find and invent a similar number of "mistakes" in the technical calls.Certainly I don't expect the judges to be perfect, since they're human after all. But it strains credulity to find that they make multiple mistakes in two skater's performances -- the two that have been analyzed the most so far -- and then justify that by saying "well it's a lot to do and they don't have a lot of time". How many other mistakes did they make that we don't know about simply because we haven't dug into other skaters' performances yet? Either 1) they make a similar amount of mistakes in other performances, and you're saying it's okay that the judges aren't doing their jobs properly despite making multiple mistakes, or 2) the other performances don't have this many mistakes, which then lead to the question of why.
That number would include not only
-real mistakes by the technical panel
-"correct" calls according to the rules by technical panel due to deceptive viewing angles
-borderline calls where the technical panel follows the rules in giving benefit of the doubt to the skater for whom the biased fans intentionally choose the harsher interpretation (and vice versa for the fan-favored skater)
-borderline calls where the viewing angle and video resolution make a significant difference, so the fans were relying on deceptive video
-incorrect interpretations of the rules by the fans
Judges are just giving GOEs and PCS. For most elements there can be two or more "correct" GOEs according each judge's assessment, depending how they balance the strong and weak aspects of the element.
There's no "correct" score for any of the program components. There are ranges of numbers the judges are supposed to use depending what they each consider to be average, above-average, good, very good, excellent, outstanding. But they each have to come to their own determinations of whether a performance was closer to very good, for example, on the criteria for each component than it was excellent or just good. Other judges and fans may honestly disagree. And all may be unconsciously influenced by expectations, personal preferences, and the level of excitement the skater generates in the live performance.
According to Tatiana Tarasova, Sotnikova's freeskate "shows how people are torn between the classic and modern dance. Everything goes, in general, from the classics, but in my heart there is a break, and one half of a person is drawn to classical art, the other is already seized plasticity of modern times. As two different directions coexist in man as he tries to combine them, and in the end it turns out that happiness, because it turns out to be possible and then, and more ... New Life joins the old. "
But there's no requirement for a competitive figure skating program to have a theme. That's one consideration among many under the Choreography component.
Take the 2011 Worlds ladies competition, for example. Yu-Na Kim lost, but there was not a similar reaction by her fanbase there. Did Miki Ando receive multiple generous calls on the technical side, including edge calls, UR calls, and footwork calls? No, she didn't. Any fan argument about the result has to rely mostly on PCS, which for the most part, are arguments based in quicksand since many are not prepared/equipped to argue about PCS. So there wasn't much of a controversy because the technical scores didn't offer enough controversial evidence.
That is not the case with the Sochi ladies event. The argument isn't solely or wholly about PCS, but rather what truly is an unusual number of calls that favored one skater. Fans with an "agenda" would have had a much weaker argument about the judging had Adelina been called on her flutz, UR on her 3T, and gotten level 3 on her footwork, and still won.
I've watched many a competition under IJS and yes, at every competition, you can find a missed edge call for a skater, or a generous UR call for another skater. 2012 Four Continents is an example I can remember where neither Ashley Wagner nor Mao Asada got edge calls on their lutzes. The generosity was at least applied consistently for the top 2 skaters. Now, had Ashley not gotten a call and Mao gotten a call...that would've been controversial and similar to what happened in Sochi. But that's not what happened.
I think it's dismissive of the legitimate issues that skating fans--not necessarily solely Yu-Na fans--have raised regarding the technical calls/judging of the 2014 Olympics ladies competition to imply that they're fan-driven, myopic, biased interpretation of the events--not your words, but that's the implication. This thread was started by Blades of Passion, not a Yu-Na uber at all, not someone with an agenda.
Yes, I'm a Yu-Na Kim fan, but I'm also a skating fan since 1992 who has striven hard to understand the current judging system. I watch a lot of skating, I've attended live competitions, I review the protocols after an event, and even after a controversial result, the protocols help me understand and accept the result. After the Sochi event, I didn't come out, guns blazing, screaming that Yu-Na Kim should've won. No, I didn't have an agenda. The problem was, the more I looked at the protocols, the more things didn't make sense. For example, the column of near complete +3s from one judge for Adelina Sotnikova. I was at first bothered by the missing flutz call, but I could've ignored even that and the UR call had the footwork levels not also been an issue. It's an easy, sneaky way to boost a skater with the hopes that the public would never notice, because 99.99% of skating fans would never put in the time to breakdown Adelina Sotnikova's footwork. How can ALL of these issues collectively be dismissed as agenda-driven by fans? [I also find it unrealistic to believe that these technical calls could all otherwise be dismissed as innocent mistakes/following proper protocol of giving the skater the benefit of the doubt. Maybe the UR, but it's not that hard to call Adelina on her flutz since 1) it's obvious and 2) she's consistently gotten called on it consistently at competitions outside of Russia. And she never got a level 4 footwork in the FS all season long until Sochi, a competition where the judging for level 4 footwork was STRICT across the board.]
Your post argues that it's the fans with the "agenda" that are skewing the interpretation of the judging and it could be done to any two programs. I disagree. Most of the time, fans couldn't bring up so many issues to argue about because there aren't THAT many controversial calls.
Scores and protocols need to stand up to scrutiny for after the competition, and most of the time, the bulk of the technical scores do, leaving the fan debate to revolve around PCS. Had there just been ONE controversial call and Adelina still won (but barely), there would have been less of a crazed reaction, as with 2011 Worlds. The fans with an agenda would have had much less to build their argument. It is the fault of the Sochi judging that the fans have too much to build an argument, not the fault of the fans themselves.
Are some fans making incorrect and unjustified arguments for why Adelina should not have been the winner/Yu-Na Kim should've been the winner? Absolutely. But is there a legitimate argument being made by less emotionally-invested skating fans that there were unusual issues with the technical calls/judging of the Sochi ladies event? Yes. And I think your post is not fair to them.
What's the point. Adelina is an Olympic champion. Yuna is a silver medalist. It will not change.