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Thread: Analyzing Sotnikova and Kim's footwork in the FS

  1. #1081
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    Huh? This is my first time in the thread in some time. That statement just caught my attention. I don't agree that she "avoided" competition.
    Then just say so, instead of using big words like "coward".

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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    What about last year? Or 2011? She skated awfully well the week of the GPF this season, so I find it hard to believe that she couldn't skate a week or two earlier.
    I don't think she THAT well at Golden Spin. Certainly she did enough to win against a pretty weak field, but I thought she wasn't spot on. She missed her 3Z-3T combo in the FS and overall she looked quite rusty. IIRC, people were worried that Yuna wouldn't do that well in Sochi because she had sort of a weak performance for her.

    Sorry I just don't buy that she went out of her way to avoid competition because she didn't want to be compared with her competitors. I think she didn't compete as much for a whole slew of other reasons. Namely her other commitments outside of skating and the fact that, and this is no secret, that she didn't enjoy competition.

    However, that's not the same thing as saying that she was trying to avoid comparison with competitors. I always got the sense her dislike for competition was more an internal thing than anything else, i.e. motivation to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by whatif View Post
    Then just say so, instead of using big words like "coward".
    FWIW, I edited my post because I realize it was a bit harsh toward DMD.
    Last edited by Mrs. P; 05-02-2014 at 04:44 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-Skwantch View Post
    Ah yes.. "The sport is declining". Logical solution...attack the fans. That will help.
    I did not attack anyone. You asked if I ever praised any other skaters, and I said yes, many, although I do not fawn over under-developed 15 year old girls with junior-ish skating skills. I know some people do indulge in that, but I am not one of them.

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    I don't think it's cowardly. It is a smart decision if you have a good enough reputation to pull off not competing and being able to still get high scores. I think the only reason Miki was able to win Worlds in 2011 was because she dominated the entire season and her scores escalated throughout the year leading up to Worlds. Yuna didn't compete at all and was still able to almost win.

    When other skaters also skate well the judges have to look at Yuna's programs more closely. Yes, Adelina's PCS was higher that it had been through the season, but the judges had the programs to look at side-by-side. If a judge thought Adelina's PCS was better after watching both programs (and many did), they should score based on what they saw at that moment, not try to judge based on what the skaters received in the past.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ven View Post
    I did not attack anyone. You asked if I ever praised any other skaters, and I said yes, many, although I do not fawn over under-developed 15 year old girls with junior-ish skating skills. I know some people do indulge in that, but I am not one of them.
    I see nothing wrong with that. Yuna has not of ardent fans who are willing to go on youtube and dislike every video clip of her rivals like Mao, Miki, Adelina. Why shoudln't some one fawn over a 15-years-old girl? She is very adorable and talented anyways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    I don't think it's cowardly. It is a smart decision if you have a good enough reputation to pull off not competing and being able to still get high scores. I think the only reason Miki was able to win Worlds in 2011 was because she dominated the entire season and her scores escalated throughout the year leading up to Worlds. Yuna didn't compete at all and was still able to almost win.

    When other skaters also skate well the judges have to look at Yuna's programs more closely. Yes, Adelina's PCS was higher that it had been through the season, but the judges had the programs to look at side-by-side. If a judge thought Adelina's PCS was better after watching both programs (and many did), they should score based on what they saw at that moment, not try to judge based on what the skaters received in the past.
    I'm just saying that I don't think Yuna was being that strategic. Quite frankly, it just seemed she had a lot on her plate and involved things she wanted to do more than competition (namely her work with Special Olympics, UNICEF, etc.). And I don't blame her.

    FWIW, I can see a case with Adelina winning, not just by the margin she did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    My eyebrow was raising higher and higher with every slide I read that google doc, but I just stopped reading when whoever who made the slideshow tried to "prove" that BOTH 3Ts in Sotnikova's SP 3T-3T combination were under-rotated. I can understand why people think the 3Lz-3T in the LP was suspicious, but the SP 3T-3T was literally one of the biggest I've ever seen! The first 3T practically finished rotating almost a foot off the ice and the second was nearly as high!

    Sorry, cuon_alpinus, it's really hard to take the slideshow with even a modicum of seriousness after that.
    Actually that was just through the magic of pre-rotation. The link even said it's because of the pre-rotation, not because of the landing. She finished early in the air because she had already rotated so much on the ice before lifting off. Adelina's jump was actually no higher than Yuna's similar jump in the short program (3Lz-3T); Adelina's first 3T was in the air just as long as Yuna's 3Lz, and Adelina's second 3T was in the air just as long as Yuna's 3T. Simple physics (and some basic assumptions) tells us that therefore they had pretty much the same height for both jumps. I'll leave it to the figure skating experts to say based on the mechanics, whether a person's 3T or 3Lz is typically naturally higher. Yuna actually rotates faster, but does more of the rotation in the air compared with Adelina. Again, I'll leave it to the figure skating experts to say whether or not pre-rotation should be considered in terms of GOEs, etc. I'll just note that Adelina got slightly higher GOEs on her SP jump combination compared with Yuna.

    On the plus side, seeing as how Adelina didn't get called on the pre-rotation, it looks like maybe she's starting to work on her 4T, which would be fun to watch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Meoima View Post
    From what I understand, figure skating is scored based on LIVE performance, not repeated video clips. And the judges give the scores based on the performance they have just watched right away, they only 3-5 minutes to review all the elements and execution.
    I agree that "oh this program will grow on you if you watch it a bunch of times" shouldn't really be directly considered in the judging (they obviously don't have time to sit back and reflect on the program over a long walk on the beach). However, I don't agree that "they only have a few minutes to review the elements, therefore judging mistakes are okay." They're judges. They're supposed to be experts at this, and they have access to better video than the blurry youtubes that we're stuck with (or at least I am, let me know if there are high-quality ones out there). If they're making mistakes, then it means they're incompetent and shouldn't be judging. Either 1) The scoring guidelines said one thing (for example, proper edges on jumps) and the individual judges (or technical panel) didn't catch it, which means the individual judges were incompetent at performing their responsibilities and should be replaced (or better trained), or 2) The scoring guidelines are too hard to judge by, meaning the judges (collectively) were incompetent in setting up the scoring system. Since the system has been in use for what, a decade now?, I hope the judges have already worked out the kinks and managing the workload under competition conditions, unless there have been many complaints in previous competitions about how the judges have too much stuff to do, and they've gone unaddressed for ten years.

    Certainly I don't expect the judges to be perfect, since they're human after all. But it strains credulity to find that they make multiple mistakes in two skater's performances -- the two that have been analyzed the most so far -- and then justify that by saying "well it's a lot to do and they don't have a lot of time". How many other mistakes did they make that we don't know about simply because we haven't dug into other skaters' performances yet? Either 1) they make a similar amount of mistakes in other performances, and you're saying it's okay that the judges aren't doing their jobs properly despite making multiple mistakes, or 2) the other performances don't have this many mistakes, which then lead to the question of why. Is your position really that it's fine for judges to make multiple mistakes in judging the most important and widely-seen competition in figure skating?

    Quote Originally Posted by AC96 View Post
    In response to the poster who asked us to compare all the top long programs, and not just Adelina versus Yuna, I went back to the protocols and found this:

    In Asada's particular situation, aside from the low GOEs and unwarranted URs, the two judges who scored her PCS most harshly gave her a 65.6 and a 66, judges 6 and 7. Those same two judges gave Sotnikova her columns of almost entirely +3 GOEs as well as PCS scores of 74.4 and 77.2, respectively. They were not even the two judges who gave Sotnikova her highest PCS scores (Judge 2 was also overzealous), but my point here is that we can't dismiss their lowballing of Mao as simply due to them being conservative judges in general; they are obviously open to giving high 9s to skaters (or perhaps just one skater). Argue as you may, but I don't think anybody could ever justify giving Asada a 66 in PCS and Sotnikova a 77.2 in comparison. It's just not credible.
    Which judge's scores are in which column is randomized by skater. So the judge that gave the 6th column scores for one skater for example may not be the same judge that gave the 6th column scores for another skater.

    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    Asada got low scores because she skated early. This isn't the first time this has happened; in fact it almost always happens. Caro got substantially higher PCS than Yuna in the SP because she skated much later. In the LP, Yuna got the highest PCS because she skated last. Is it fair? Probably not, but that's just how scoring works in figure skating. Asada was in no way singled-out.
    I'm admittedly not a figure skating expert at the scoring system, but I must have missed this in the IJS documentation. Can you point to where it says "skaters that skate later get more points"? And I'll just note that once again, apparently this is fine if it happens to Adelina but doesn't apply if it happens to Yuna.

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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    I don't think it's cowardly. It is a smart decision if you have a good enough reputation to pull off not competing and being able to still get high scores. I think the only reason Miki was able to win Worlds in 2011 was because she dominated the entire season and her scores escalated throughout the year leading up to Worlds. Yuna didn't compete at all and was still able to almost win.

    When other skaters also skate well the judges have to look at Yuna's programs more closely. Yes, Adelina's PCS was higher that it had been through the season, but the judges had the programs to look at side-by-side. If a judge thought Adelina's PCS was better after watching both programs (and many did), they should score based on what they saw at that moment, not try to judge based on what the skaters received in the past.
    um.. what?? many did? who??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meoima View Post
    That I agree. Even though I don't like Adelina's style, and I still couldn't figure out the theme of her FS, she did skate so well. The commentators was so fired up at her jumps even though they disagree with her PCS.

    As for Yuna, I was kind of underwhelmed. Maybe I had expected her to be better than Vancouver 2010, but she was not.
    I want to know the theme of her FS, too. Can someone clarify?

    Anyway, I don't think we should insult the skaters (I'm talking about both Yuna and Adelina). If we call Yuna coward or Adelina a cheater or whatever people called her, does that get us anywhere? We should at least respect them and their work regardless of their results or our opinion about this result. It's not Yuna's fault that she couldn\t compete earlier in the season due to injury and it's not Adelina's fault for her marks. Stop atacking the skaters, apreciate at least their effort- Yuna had an amazing comeback, two beautiful programs to end her career. Adelina also improved and skated her best that night. If you are fans of any of them, underline that and discuss the judging and the skating, not the skaters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanshilar View Post
    Actually that was just through the magic of pre-rotation. The link even said it's because of the pre-rotation, not because of the landing. She finished early in the air because she had already rotated so much on the ice before lifting off.
    See the Pre-Rotation Questions thread in the Figure Skating References section of this forum.

    A degree of prerotation is necessary on all jumps.

    Here's what the Technical Panel Handbook has to say about prerotation:
    A clear forward (backward for Axel type jump) take off will be considered as a downgraded jump. The toe loop is the most commonly cheated on take-off jump. The Technical Panel may only watch the replay in regular speed to determine the cheat and downgrade on the take off (more often in combinations or sequences).
    I agree that "oh this program will grow on you if you watch it a bunch of times" shouldn't really be directly considered in the judging (they obviously don't have time to sit back and reflect on the program over a long walk on the beach). However, I don't agree that "they only have a few minutes to review the elements, therefore judging mistakes are okay." They're judges. They're supposed to be experts at this, and they have access to better video than the blurry youtubes that we're stuck with (or at least I am, let me know if there are high-quality ones out there).
    Actually, the main thing they have access to is front-row seats to the actual live performance.

    Primarily, they're judging what they see with their own eyes in real time.

    Only if a jump looks questionable in real time will the technical panel go back and review the video for underrotations and wrong edges. As noted above, they are not allowed to use slow motion to look for prerotation.

    The judges would check video for even fewer jumps than the technical panel. Maybe some judges are more likely than others to check video to confirm what they saw in real time, or to second guess the technical panel calls that show up in their computers after the tech panel reviews. For many the main priority after the end of the live performance would be inputting program component scores.

    Certainly I don't expect the judges to be perfect, since they're human after all. But it strains credulity to find that they make multiple mistakes in two skater's performances -- the two that have been analyzed the most so far -- and then justify that by saying "well it's a lot to do and they don't have a lot of time". How many other mistakes did they make that we don't know about simply because we haven't dug into other skaters' performances yet? Either 1) they make a similar amount of mistakes in other performances, and you're saying it's okay that the judges aren't doing their jobs properly despite making multiple mistakes, or 2) the other performances don't have this many mistakes, which then lead to the question of why.
    Oh, I think if you took any two performances, a group of fans with an agenda to "prove" that one skater deserved higher scores and the other deserved lower could find and invent a similar number of "mistakes" in the technical calls.

    That number would include not only

    -real mistakes by the technical panel
    -"correct" calls according to the rules by technical panel due to deceptive viewing angles

    but also

    -borderline calls where the technical panel follows the rules in giving benefit of the doubt to the skater for whom the biased fans intentionally choose the harsher interpretation (and vice versa for the fan-favored skater)
    -borderline calls where the viewing angle and video resolution make a significant difference, so the fans were relying on deceptive video
    -incorrect interpretations of the rules by the fans

    Judges are just giving GOEs and PCS. For most elements there can be two or more "correct" GOEs according each judge's assessment, depending how they balance the strong and weak aspects of the element.

    There's no "correct" score for any of the program components. There are ranges of numbers the judges are supposed to use depending what they each consider to be average, above-average, good, very good, excellent, outstanding. But they each have to come to their own determinations of whether a performance was closer to very good, for example, on the criteria for each component than it was excellent or just good. Other judges and fans may honestly disagree. And all may be unconsciously influenced by expectations, personal preferences, and the level of excitement the skater generates in the live performance.

    Quote Originally Posted by ioanablabla View Post
    I want to know the theme of her FS, too. Can someone clarify?
    According to Tatiana Tarasova, Sotnikova's freeskate "shows how people are torn between the classic and modern dance. Everything goes, in general, from the classics, but in my heart there is a break, and one half of a person is drawn to classical art, the other is already seized plasticity of modern times. As two different directions coexist in man as he tries to combine them, and in the end it turns out that happiness, because it turns out to be possible and then, and more ... New Life joins the old. "

    But there's no requirement for a competitive figure skating program to have a theme. That's one consideration among many under the Choreography component.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    According to Tatiana Tarasova, Sotnikova's freeskate "shows how people are torn between the classic and modern dance. Everything goes, in general, from the classics, but in my heart there is a break, and one half of a person is drawn to classical art, the other is already seized plasticity of modern times. As two different directions coexist in man as he tries to combine them, and in the end it turns out that happiness, because it turns out to be possible and then, and more ... New Life joins the old. "
    Sorry for being shallow, I am so confused at Tat's explanation. I would rather think Adelina's free skate does not have a theme, though.
    Anyways, thank you very much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    See the Pre-Rotation Questions thread in the Figure Skating References section of this forum.

    But there's no requirement for a competitive figure skating program to have a theme. That's one consideration among many under the Choreography component.
    Yes, I know a theme is not required, but it still has to express a mood or some sort of atmosphere. Thank you for the info.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Oh, I think if you took any two performances, a group of fans with an agenda to "prove" that one skater deserved higher scores and the other deserved lower could find and invent a similar number of "mistakes" in the technical calls.
    I respectfully disagree that any group of fans with an "agenda" could make an argument for one skater versus another based on "any two performances."

    Take the 2011 Worlds ladies competition, for example. Yu-Na Kim lost, but there was not a similar reaction by her fanbase there. Did Miki Ando receive multiple generous calls on the technical side, including edge calls, UR calls, and footwork calls? No, she didn't. Any fan argument about the result has to rely mostly on PCS, which for the most part, are arguments based in quicksand since many are not prepared/equipped to argue about PCS. So there wasn't much of a controversy because the technical scores didn't offer enough controversial evidence.

    That is not the case with the Sochi ladies event. The argument isn't solely or wholly about PCS, but rather what truly is an unusual number of calls that favored one skater. Fans with an "agenda" would have had a much weaker argument about the judging had Adelina been called on her flutz, UR on her 3T, and gotten level 3 on her footwork, and still won.

    I've watched many a competition under IJS and yes, at every competition, you can find a missed edge call for a skater, or a generous UR call for another skater. 2012 Four Continents is an example I can remember where neither Ashley Wagner nor Mao Asada got edge calls on their lutzes. The generosity was at least applied consistently for the top 2 skaters. Now, had Ashley not gotten a call and Mao gotten a call...that would've been controversial and similar to what happened in Sochi. But that's not what happened.

    I think it's dismissive of the legitimate issues that skating fans--not necessarily solely Yu-Na fans--have raised regarding the technical calls/judging of the 2014 Olympics ladies competition to imply that they're fan-driven, myopic, biased interpretation of the events--not your words, but that's the implication. This thread was started by Blades of Passion, not a Yu-Na uber at all, not someone with an agenda.

    Yes, I'm a Yu-Na Kim fan, but I'm also a skating fan since 1992 who has striven hard to understand the current judging system. I watch a lot of skating, I've attended live competitions, I review the protocols after an event, and even after a controversial result, the protocols help me understand and accept the result. After the Sochi event, I didn't come out, guns blazing, screaming that Yu-Na Kim should've won. No, I didn't have an agenda. The problem was, the more I looked at the protocols, the more things didn't make sense. For example, the column of near complete +3s from one judge for Adelina Sotnikova. I was at first bothered by the missing flutz call, but I could've ignored even that and the UR call had the footwork levels not also been an issue. It's an easy, sneaky way to boost a skater with the hopes that the public would never notice, because 99.99% of skating fans would never put in the time to breakdown Adelina Sotnikova's footwork. How can ALL of these issues collectively be dismissed as agenda-driven by fans? [I also find it unrealistic to believe that these technical calls could all otherwise be dismissed as innocent mistakes/following proper protocol of giving the skater the benefit of the doubt. Maybe the UR, but it's not that hard to call Adelina on her flutz since 1) it's obvious and 2) she's consistently gotten called on it consistently at competitions outside of Russia. And she never got a level 4 footwork in the FS all season long until Sochi, a competition where the judging for level 4 footwork was STRICT across the board.]

    Your post argues that it's the fans with the "agenda" that are skewing the interpretation of the judging and it could be done to any two programs. I disagree. Most of the time, fans couldn't bring up so many issues to argue about because there aren't THAT many controversial calls.

    Scores and protocols need to stand up to scrutiny for after the competition, and most of the time, the bulk of the technical scores do, leaving the fan debate to revolve around PCS. Had there just been ONE controversial call and Adelina still won (but barely), there would have been less of a crazed reaction, as with 2011 Worlds. The fans with an agenda would have had much less to build their argument. It is the fault of the Sochi judging that the fans have too much to build an argument, not the fault of the fans themselves.

    Are some fans making incorrect and unjustified arguments for why Adelina should not have been the winner/Yu-Na Kim should've been the winner? Absolutely. But is there a legitimate argument being made by less emotionally-invested skating fans that there were unusual issues with the technical calls/judging of the Sochi ladies event? Yes. And I think your post is not fair to them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ioanablabla View Post
    Yes, I know a theme is not required, but it still has to express a mood or some sort of atmosphere. Thank you for the info.
    The fact that a Russian journalist admitted that they did not understand what was going on in Sotnikova's FS and asked Tarasova about it, prompting Tarasova to give that answer, says a lot about Sotnikova's program.

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    What's the point. Adelina is an Olympic champion. Yuna is a silver medalist. It will not change.

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