Analyzing Sotnikova and Kim's footwork in the FS

Mathman · Jun 2, 2014

Ven said:
The judges' CH free skate score for Kim:

2010 Olympics: 8.95
2013 Worlds: 9.18
2014 Olympics: 9.39

In this instance, though, I think Miss Daisy is right. Scores, shmores, Kim executed her choreography better at 2013 Worlds and at 2010 Olympics than at Sochi.

Anyway, the question is not, was 2014 Kim better than 2010 Kim, but rather, was 2014 Kim better than 2014 Sotnikova. Anything else is a red herring.

So apparently, the judges thought her choreography was worse than those seasons, that they gave her a higher CH score. Doh!

I do not think that this conclusion is warranted. I do not believe that the Sochi judges said to themselves, well, she got 9.25 at Vancouver, and this is better, so I'll give a 9.50. IMHO figure skating judging just doesn't work that way. In reality, the relation between the quality of the performance and the PCSs is, in fact, pretty murky.

MiRé · Jun 2, 2014

This forum needs to have a test or a quiz before posters can post about "edge" and "UR". Some have no clue what a wrong edged or UR jumps are.

This thread would be so much shorter too :biggrin:

YesWay · Jun 2, 2014

Yuna Kim's average FS component scores...
...For the 3 grand prix competitions preceding the Vancouver Olympics: 7.82
...And "suddenly" at the Vancouver Oympics: 8.6

Yuna Kim's average FS combined GOE grades...
...For the 3 grand prix competitions preceding the Vancouver Olympics: 7.48
...And "suddenly" at the Vancouver Oympics: 17.4

At Vancouver, Yuna Kim "suddenly" beat her previous career-best FS score by 16 points, and her career-best total by 18 points... effectively putting her out of reach of Mao Asada, who was still to skate, no matter how well she skated.

One of the Judges for the Vancouver 2010 ladies FS, was Vice President of the Korean skating federation.

Yuna Kim probably hugged somebody after she won.

Does all this "clearly", "obviously", "prove" that the fix was in at Vancouver, and that there was "blatant cheating"?
That although Kim didn't need any help or "insurance", somebody "clearly, obviously, blatantly cheated" to make sure?

No? Then there's no prooof of anything in Sochi either, certainly not Sotnikova's "sudden" increase in scores. So why people are still flogging this dead horse? There's actually no horse left by now.

Ven · Jun 2, 2014

Components said:
The judges just use the numbers as a means to reach their intended goal, which is why the numbers often make no sense to viewers.

That's right, the scores are decided off-ice. The skaters will be ranked according to who bribed who, or who traded favors with who, or who has an attitude problem with certain officials and who doesn't, or who networks and connects with who in the skating community, and on and on. According to what happens away from the ice, before the competitions, the decisions are made to favor one skater over another, and the PCS numbers are just made up arbitrarily in order for the desired results to come out.

Which begs the question, why does the ISU go through the farce of having guidelines for PCS and GOE when they are not followed? Because it's all disingenuous.

Components said:
Sotnikova's combo was no more UR than Kim's second Lutz was, and neither of them got a UR on those jumps.

Clearly you are willfully blind in this matter, because replays show Sotnikova's combo was UR, and Kim's Lutz was not.

I happen to think the end result was pretty spot on.

Skyfly thinks Gracie should have won too ... all people are entitled to their own opinion!

But you know, there's a reason why there is such an outcry and debate going on over the scandal.

drivingmissdaisy · Jun 2, 2014

YesWay said:
Yuna Kim's average FS component scores...
...For the 3 grand prix competitions preceding the Vancouver Olympics: 7.82
...And at the Vancouver Oympics: 8.6

Yuna Kim's average FS combined GOE grades...
...For the 3 grand prix competitions preceding the Vancouver Olympics: 7.48
...And at the Vancouver Oympics: 17.4

At Vancouver, Yuna Kim beat her previous career-best FS score by 16 points, and her career-best total by 18 points... effectively putting her out of reach of Mao Asada, who was still to skate, no matter how well she skated.

One of the Judges for the Vancouver 2010 ladies FS, was Vice President of the Korean skating federation.

Yuna Kim probably hugged somebody after she won.

Does all this "clearly", "obviously", "prove" that the fix was in at Vancouver, and that there was "blatant cheating"?
That although Kim didn't need any help or "insurance", somebody "clearly, obviously, blatantly cheated" to make sure?

No? Then there's no prooof of anything in Sochi either, so why people are still flogging this dead horse? There's actually no horse left by now.

Yuna should give her 2010 OGM back. :biggrin:

Ven · Jun 2, 2014

Mathman said:
In this instance, though, I think Miss Daisy is right. Scores, shmores, Kim executed her choreography better at 2013 Worlds and at 2010 Olympics than at Sochi.

Anyway, the question is not, was 2014 Kim better than 2010 Kim, but rather, was 2014 Kim better than 2014 Sotnikova. Anything else is a red herring.

Actually you are agreeing with me. DMD was making the argument for comparing Kim to her past seasons. I discredited that by showing her scores were higher this season, and then added that it doesn't matter, because the only thing that mattered was who was better ... 2014 Kim or 2014 Sotnikova?

drivingmissdaisy · Jun 2, 2014

Mathman said:
In this instance, though, I think Miss Daisy is right.

I'm always right

MiRé · Jun 2, 2014

drivingmissdaisy said:
I'm always right

drivingmissdaisy · Jun 2, 2014

Ven said:
Actually you are agreeing with me. DMD was making the argument for comparing Kim to her past seasons. I discredited that by showing her scores were higher this season

Huh? You used the scores to suggest the Sochi was her best performance.

Ven said:
it doesn't matter, because the only thing that mattered was who was better ... 2014 Kim or 2014 Sotnikova?

Exactly! Which is why Adelina's previous scores aren't that important, much like how Yuna's previous-to-Vancouver scores didn't matter when she received her massive OGM scores. If you're the best that night you deserve to win, period.

Mathman · Jun 2, 2014

Ven said:
Actually you are agreeing with me. DMD was making the argument for comparing Kim to her past seasons. I discredited that by showing her scores were higher this season, and then added that it doesn't matter, because the only thing that mattered was who was better ... 2014 Kim or 2014 Sotnikova?

That is what is so wearying about this discussion. We all agree that no conclusions can be drawn by looking at the judges' scores -- and yet we can't seem to stop ourselves from plunging in and listing statistic after statistic.

Ophelia · Jun 2, 2014

YesWay said:
Yuna Kim's average FS component scores...
...For the 3 grand prix competitions preceding the Vancouver Olympics: 7.82
...And "suddenly" at the Vancouver Oympics: 8.6

Yuna Kim's average FS combined GOE grades...
...For the 3 grand prix competitions preceding the Vancouver Olympics: 7.48
...And "suddenly" at the Vancouver Oympics: 17.4

At Vancouver, Yuna Kim "suddenly" beat her previous career-best FS score by 16 points, and her career-best total by 18 points... effectively putting her out of reach of Mao Asada, who was still to skate, no matter how well she skated.

One of the Judges for the Vancouver 2010 ladies FS, was Vice President of the Korean skating federation.

Yuna Kim probably hugged somebody after she won.

Does all this "clearly", "obviously", "prove" that the fix was in at Vancouver, and that there was "blatant cheating"?
That although Kim didn't need any help or "insurance", somebody "clearly, obviously, blatantly cheated" to make sure?

No? Then there's no prooof of anything in Sochi either, certainly not Sotnikova's "sudden" increase in scores. So why people are still flogging this dead horse? There's actually no horse left by now.

This argument has already been disproved and beaten to death. Kim's scores rose for 2010, as did her competitors. In Sochi, only certain skaters' scores exhibited an exponential, statistically significant increase. :rolleye:

Meoima · Jun 2, 2014

Mathman said:
That is what is so wearying about this discussion. We all agree that no conclusions can be drawn by looking at the judges' scores -- and yet we can't seem to stop ourselves from plunging in and listing statistic after statistic.

:thumbsup: unless we can find some credible evidence, we can do nothing at the moment.
I only hope the anonymous judging will be gone.

drivingmissdaisy · Jun 2, 2014

lilahozi said:
This argument has already been disproved and beaten to death. Kim's scores rose for 2010, as did her competitors.

Who else's scores rose to that extent?

YesWay · Jun 2, 2014

lilahozi said:
This argument has already been disproved and beaten to death. Kim's scores rose for 2010, as did her competitors. In Sochi, only certain skaters' scores exhibited an exponential, statistically significant increase.

right back at you....

...Only certain skaters exhibited the skate of their lives. Asada did. Sotnikova did. Kim did not, and nobody but the most zealous die-hard fan(atic) would think so. The only thing that truly surprises me about scores at Sochi, is that anyone scored more than Asada for the FS.

PS. I love how this thread presents a window for me to peep into a fantasy universe where things are referred to with words like "obviously"... "clearly"... "blatantly"... "I have discredited x"... "y has been proved/disproved".... etc etc... when in reality no such things apply. Pure comedy really.

Ven · Jun 2, 2014

drivingmissdaisy said:
Huh? You used the scores to suggest the Sochi was her best performance.

No, you have been the one who repeatedly stated (in many posts and many threads) that Yuna wasn't as good as before, and I have repeatedly responded that she received higher marks than ever, in order to discredit your disingenuous statement.

I'm not sure why you think she wasn't as good as before. Maybe you are obsessed with skaters acting like teenage girls? You know, it's not particularly difficult to act like a teenager and smile and wave and giggle. While Sotnikova's performance was fitting for her age, and Yuna's was fitting for 19 at Vancouver, I'm not sure why you have a problem with something more mature. Perhaps this reflects more on you than anyone else.

MiRé · Jun 2, 2014

YesWay said:
right back at you....

...Only certain skaters exhibited the skate of their lives. Asada did. Sotnikova did. Kim did not, and nobody but the most zealous die-hard fan(atic) would think so. The only thing that truly surprises me about scores at Sochi, is that anyone scored more than Asada for the FS.

PS. I love how this thread presents a window for me to peep into a fantasy universe where things are referred to with words like "obviously"... "clearly"... "blatantly"... "I have discredited x"... "y has been proved/disproved".... etc etc... when in reality no such things apply. Pure comedy really.

What makes you think Yuna didn't

? And of course Asada didn't score the highest. Look at her UR and wrong edged jumps. Eyes are made for reason

Ven · Jun 2, 2014

Melon said:
What makes you think Yuna didn't ? And of course Asada didn't score the highest. Look at her UR and wrong edged jumps. Eyes are made for reason

Eyes? Some posters are all mouth.

Ophelia · Jun 2, 2014

YesWay said:
right back at you....

...Only certain skaters exhibited the skate of their lives. Asada did. Sotnikova did. Kim did not, and nobody but the most zealous die-hard fan(atic) would think so. The only thing that truly surprises me about scores at Sochi, is that anyone scored more than Asada for the FS.

PS. I love how this thread presents a window for me to peep into a fantasy universe where things are referred to with words like "obviously"... "clearly"... "blatantly"... "I have discredited x"... "y has been proved/disproved".... etc etc... when in reality no such things apply. Pure comedy really.

Right back at you too.

Kostner had the two skates of her life, and I don't see her scores skyrocketing to the n-th degree. Lipniskaia did NOT have the skate of her life, but her scores say otherwise. When did having the skate of your life mean you get boosted all the way to an OGM? The Olympics are a competition where you're measured against other people's performances, not against your own history of performances.

YesWay · Jun 2, 2014

Ven said:
Eyes? Some posters are all mouth.

Aren't they just.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Jun 2, 2014

Melon said:
What makes you think Yuna didn't ? And of course Asada didn't score the highest. Look at her UR and wrong edged jumps. Eyes are made for reason

Do you think Asada deserved PCS less than Lipnitskaia, who had a fall? Also, Asada had a flutz, but she also landed a 3A. And her skating is far superior to Sotnikova's in general. Asada losing to Sotnikova on skating skills is absolutely garbage -- heck even Kostner lost to Sotnikova on skating skills and Kostner's speed and edges are the best out there. Sotnikova doesn't have very deep edges, nor does she always hit the edge she's intending to do (as her footwork shows, sometimes her edges are "halfway there").

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