Analyzing Sotnikova and Kim's footwork in the FS | Page 74 | Golden Skate

Analyzing Sotnikova and Kim's footwork in the FS

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drivingmissdaisy

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Do you think Asada deserved PCS less than Lipnitskaia, who had a fall? Also, Asada had a flutz, but she also landed a 3A. And her skating is far superior to Sotnikova's in general. Asada losing to Sotnikova on skating skills is absolutely garbage -- heck even Kostner lost to Sotnikova on skating skills and Kostner's speed and edges are the best out there. Sotnikova doesn't have very deep edges, nor does she always hit the edge she's intending to do (as her footwork shows, sometimes her edges are "halfway there").

PCS marks reflect what is exhibited in the program presented, not how skilled the skater is outside the context of the program. Caro basically skated from element to element for half of her program. Her closing footwork was pure magic though.
 

Ophelia

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Who else's scores rose to that extent?

I never said "to that extent". Just from glancing at wiki, Asada, Rochette, (probably Nagasu and other skaters) saw big score increases at the Olympics (they both achieved some combination of PBs during that event). Asada's combined scores went up ~55 pts from the beginning of that season to the Olympics, which is 10 pts higher than Kim's ~40 pt increase during that season. Rochette's Olympics LP was ~20 pts higher than her previous PB that season.
 

YesWay

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I never said "to that extent". Just from glancing at wiki, Asada, Rochette, (probably Nagasu and other skaters) saw big score increases at the Olympics (they both achieved some combination of PBs during that event). Asada's combined scores went up ~55 pts from the beginning of that season to the Olympics, which is 10 pts higher than Kim's ~40 pt increase during that season. Rochette's Olympics LP was ~20 pts higher than her previous PB that season.
So in Vancouver only certain skaters' scores exhibited an exponential, statistically significant increase.

Just like Sochi.
 

Ophelia

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So in Vancouver only certain skaters' scores exhibited an exponential, statistically significant increase.

Just like Sochi.

Are you purposefully trying to misunderstand the argument, or do you just not comprehend context? In Sochi, only the two Russian ladies exhibited exponential score increases (and Gracie Gold maybe? Due to the tantrum Frank Carroll threw?) that allowed them to surpass and/or match skaters who skated much better (Lipniskaia's PCS vs Mao's). In Vancouver, there wasn't such a nationalistic bias in who received big score bumps and who didn't.
 

Ven

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Why are you referencing any skaters pre-Cop?

Supposedly, CoP was created to make the sport more objective, quantifiable, and fair. That's why there are a lot of numbers and guidelines for achieving those numbers. But if the reality is that the numbers are just made up out of thin air, then what you have is a more complex, obscure, and anonymous version of 6.0 -- one that was created not to end or reduce cheating, but one that was created in order to facilitate the rigging of competitions and keep cheating better hidden out of plain sight.
 

drivingmissdaisy

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I never said "to that extent". Just from glancing at wiki, Asada, Rochette, (probably Nagasu and other skaters) saw big score increases at the Olympics (they both achieved some combination of PBs during that event). Asada's combined scores went up ~55 pts from the beginning of that season to the Olympics, which is 10 pts higher than Kim's ~40 pt increase during that season. Rochette's Olympics LP was ~20 pts higher than her previous PB that season.

The amount of the increase is only important if you consider two clean programs. Yuna saw that massive increase over previous clean programs.
 

drivingmissdaisy

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Are you purposefully trying to misunderstand the argument, or do you just not comprehend context? In Sochi, only the two Russian ladies exhibited exponential score increases (and Gracie Gold maybe? Due to the tantrum Frank Carroll threw?) that allowed them to surpass and/or match skaters who skated much better (Lipniskaia's PCS vs Mao's). In Vancouver, there wasn't such a nationalistic bias in who received big score bumps and who didn't.

Mao got higher PCS in the SP, Julia higher PCS in the LP. Why do you think that is? Hint: check the start order.
 

MiRé

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Do you think Asada deserved PCS less than Lipnitskaia, who had a fall? Also, Asada had a flutz, but she also landed a 3A. And her skating is far superior to Sotnikova's in general. Asada losing to Sotnikova on skating skills is absolutely garbage -- heck even Kostner lost to Sotnikova on skating skills and Kostner's speed and edges are the best out there. Sotnikova doesn't have very deep edges, nor does she always hit the edge she's intending to do (as her footwork shows, sometimes her edges are "halfway there").

I think it's not that Asada, Kim, or Kostner deserves higher PCS, it's just Lip and Sotnikova's PCS were just ridiculous over scored. But to answer your question, absolutely not. I was just comparing Asada's skates to Kim's and Kostner's.
 

MiRé

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Mao got higher PCS in the SP, Julia higher PCS in the LP. Why do you think that is? Hint: check the start order.

Uhm, you said this

PCS marks reflect what is exhibited in the program presented, not how skilled the skater is outside the context of the program. Caro basically skated from element to element for half of her program. Her closing footwork was pure magic though.

Make up your mind please?
 

Ven

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Melon, that's what you get with disingenuous people who rely on ex post facto explanations. Often, they will contradict themselves over and over while they go in circles trying to explain an untruth.

Honesty never has contradictions. Dishonesty always does.
 

Ophelia

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The amount of the increase is only important if you consider two clean programs. Yuna saw that massive increase over previous clean programs.

Nope. Joannie skated cleanly previous to the Olympics that season also. Don't have memory of Asada.

I don't buy that Mao's starting order impacted her SO MUCH that a skater who fell later on could outscore her. Judges should have some standards of measurement when judging the Olympics. If you're telling me that judges for the Olympics cannot be trained well enough through all their previous experiences to keep check of their scores (much less not be swayed by crowd cheering), then the ISU might wanna spend some money on judge training.
 

MiRé

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Melon, that's what you get with disingenuous people who rely on ex post facto explanations. Often, they will contradict themselves over and over while they go in circles trying to explain an untruth.

Honesty never has contradictions. Dishonesty always does.

Seriously, how many excuses can they make :unsure:
 

drivingmissdaisy

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Make up your mind please?

How is acknowledging start order matters contradictory? Do you disagree with either (a) start order does affect scores or (b) PCS marks how the skater skates the program, rather than their reputation of how "good" a skater they are?
 

drivingmissdaisy

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I don't buy that Mao's starting order impacted her SO MUCH that a skater who fell later on could outscore her. Judges should have some standards of measurement when judging the Olympics. If you're telling me that judges for the Olympics cannot be trained well enough through all their previous experiences to keep check of their scores (much less not be swayed by crowd cheering), then the ISU might wanna spend some money on judge training.

Mao got higher PCS than Julia for a program with 3 major errors (vs 1 for Julia). If the judges were so pro-Russian how do you explain that?
 

Ven

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How is acknowledging start order matters contradictory?

You said PCS marks represent what is exhibited in a performance. But then you said the score was affected by starting order, something that has nothing to do with the performance.

So if the score is affected by one thing that has nothing to do with performance, a logical person would be able to figure out that the score is affected by other things that have nothing to do with the performance.
 

drivingmissdaisy

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You said PCS marks represent what is exhibited in a performance. But then you said the score was affected by starting order, something that has nothing to do with the performance.

PCS marks reflect what is exhibited in a performance. I never said exclusively, as everyone knows start order matters. But PCS is definitely not based on how good a skater is if they don't exhibit those skills in a program. Yuna's flat program could not even be saved by her better start order.
 
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