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Thread: Analyzing Sotnikova and Kim's footwork in the FS

  1. #1411
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    AFAIR, an ISU communication is written when judges are cited. I don't remember a tech panellist being cited ever? Does anyone remember a case?

    Here's a sample from last year. These communications typically come out in June, so it is not surprising that we haven't seen any from this year yet.
    http://static.isu.org/media/108938/1...commission.pdf


    1. Natalia Kruglova is guilty of misconduct and of violation of the duties of judges and the ISU Code of Ethics 2012.
    2. A two years suspension from participation in all ISU activities as an ISU Judge is imposed on Natalia Kruglova, beginning on December 24, 2012 (date of the provisional suspension) and ending on December 23, 2014.
    3. The Complainants and Ms. Kruglova shall bear their own costs.
    4. The costs of the hearing (room and travel expenses of the panel and the witness) are imposed on the Ukrainian Figure Skating Federation.

    This decision is subject to appeal to the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) as per Article 25, paragraph 1 of the ISU Constitution 2012. The decisions of the Disciplinary Commission are published in full on the ISU website.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/06/sp...arks.html?_r=0

    Kruglova solicited extra points for the Ukrainian pair at Cup of Nice that year.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 06-01-2014 at 04:52 AM.

  2. #1412
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-Skwantch View Post
    Yes. That is a good point. It's no smoking gun or anything but certainly makes a case for bad judging. I agree Yuna should have a PCS advantage but to what extent is up for debate. To me it should have been much closer in the end with Adelina winning the TES and Yuna the PCS. The margin of victory is what makes it look awful suspicious. Had it been closer would there be less of a debate? I really doubt it

    All three medalists deserve a and the judges a
    Assuming they all called flutz for -1 like judge #3 did on Adelina’s first combination and the tech panel switched the step sequence level between her and Yuna.

    Adelina:

    3Lz+3T 1.0 GOE --> -0.70 (1.70 points discrepancy)
    StSq4 BV 3.90 --> 3.30 1.70 GOE --> 1.21 (1.09 points discrepancy)
    TES 75.54 -1.70 -1.09 = 72.75

    Yuna:

    StSq3 BV 3.30 --> 3.90 1.14 GOE --> 1.60 (1.06 points gap)
    TES 69.69 + 1.06 = 70.75

    Yuna’s PCS (74.50) should be at least 2.50 points higher than Adelina’s (74.41 -2.41 = 72.00).

    Final:
    Yuna 70.75 (TES) + 74.50 (PCS)+ 74.92 (SP) = 220.17
    Adelina 72.75 (TES) + 72.00 (PCS) + 74.64 (SP) = 219.39

    It is very close indeed. The gap could be quite bigger if the judges weren’t too generous given out + GOEs to Adelina and lenient on her other mistakes.
    I don’t think it would be much of debate when there isn’t any glaring bias. In this case it was not only one judge but two!

    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    AFAIR, an ISU communication is written when judges are cited. I don't remember a tech panellist being cited ever? Does anyone remember a case?

    Here's a sample from last year. These communications typically come out in June, so it is not surprising that we haven't seen any from this year yet.
    http://static.isu.org/media/108938/1...commission.pdf

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/06/sp...arks.html?_r=0

    Kruglova solicited extra points for the Ukrainian pair at Cup of Nice that year.
    Interesting read. Thanks for the link.

  3. #1413
    Adiós Melon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Figure View Post
    Assuming they all called flutz for -1 like judge #3 did on Adelina’s first combination and the tech panel switched the step sequence level between her and Yuna.

    Adelina:

    3Lz+3T 1.0 GOE --> -0.70 (1.70 points discrepancy)
    StSq4 BV 3.90 --> 3.30 1.70 GOE --> 1.21 (1.09 points discrepancy)
    TES 75.54 -1.70 -1.09 = 72.75

    Yuna:

    StSq3 BV 3.30 --> 3.90 1.14 GOE --> 1.60 (1.06 points gap)
    TES 69.69 + 1.06 = 70.75

    Yuna’s PCS (74.50) should be at least 2.50 points higher than Adelina’s (74.41 -2.41 = 72.00).

    Final:
    Yuna 70.75 (TES) + 74.50 (PCS)+ 74.92 (SP) = 220.17
    Adelina 72.75 (TES) + 72.00 (PCS) + 74.64 (SP) = 219.39

    It is very close indeed. The gap could be quite bigger if the judges weren’t too generous given out + GOEs to Adelina and lenient on her other mistakes.
    I don’t think it would be much of debate when there isn’t any glaring bias. In this case it was not only one judge but two!



    Interesting read. Thanks for the link.
    Wouldn't be super close if SP was rightfully judged too. I'd say at least 3-4 points difference (still too high)

  4. #1414
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    The SP is also strange. I haven’t paying much attention to it yet but glancing at it Yuna is zapped by two judges again I think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Melon View Post
    Wouldn't be super close if SP was rightfully judged too. I'd say at least 3-4 points difference (still too high)
    Agreed.

    It's so weird -- Kim skates clean in her SP with 3Z+3T, and is tied with Sotnikova skating clean with a 3T+3T.

    At Euros, Lipnitskaia skates clean in her SP with 3Z+3T, and is higher than Kostner skating clean with a 3T+3T.


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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Agreed.

    It's so weird -- Kim skates clean in her SP with 3Z+3T, and is tied with Sotnikova skating clean with a 3T+3T.

    At Euros, Lipnitskaia skates clean in her SP with 3Z+3T, and is higher than Kostner skating clean with a 3T+3T.

    Which is the problem when Kostner pulled the 3F+3T out in the short just for that reason---and she hadn't done that combo clean in a while. It says to skaters that their efforts simply don't matter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sk8in View Post
    It says to skaters that their efforts simply don't matter.
    Don't forget Sotnikova should have received both a downgrade and an edge call, and the step sequence levels should have been reversed. How many points differential is that? Not to mention her excessive PCS and GOEs. If she had been scored accurately she would have been about 20 points lower and 15 shy of Kim.

  8. #1418
    Size 7 Knife Boots Sam-Skwantch's Avatar
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    Can I ask what is the point in all this? We can discuss/debate all day and even until our fingers callous. The truth is nothing we say will change anything. Instead of focusing unnecessarily on Sotnikova and judging failures at some point we need to just move this to the Yuna fanfest and begin to celebrate one of the greatest careers this sport has ever known. I would join in for sure Why not just let things play out, as they will regardless of anything said here, and instead focus our energy on how Yuna made an undeniable presence on the ice. Everyone has said their piece by now. Unless some new development takes place then what's the point?

  9. #1419
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    It will never move on. Deal with it.

    This isn't a Yuna fan fest. Do you really think Blades of Passion is a Yuna fan? Do you think he started this thread for the sake of one skater, or that so many others post in these threads because of one skater? Do you really think there is any "moving on to the next competition" when the sanctioning body that runs the sport has shown that it is involved with rigging competitions? What is the point of watching the next competition when the crooks are still running it? OK you can watch Skate America and Cup of Russia and World Champs next year and guess what? The ISU runs those too and those competitions will be every bit as illegitimate as this one.

  10. #1420
    Kisdom Title TMC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ven View Post
    It will never move on. Deal with it.

    This isn't a Yuna fan fest. Do you really think Blades of Passion is a Yuna fan? Do you think he started this thread for the sake of one skater, or that so many others post in these threads because of one skater? Do you really think there is any "moving on to the next competition" when the sanctioning body that runs the sport has shown that it is involved with rigging competitions? What is the point of watching the next competition when the crooks are still running it? OK you can watch Skate America and Cup of Russia and World Champs next year and guess what? The ISU runs those too and those competitions will be every bit as illegitimate as this one.
    Wholeheartedly agree. It's not about these specific skaters, it's in the interest of all skaters that the judging be fair and the judges competent and "untouchable".

    I'm not a Yuna/Adelina/Yulia fan by any means. I like Carolina so may have some bias for her, but honestly I don't even care about any of the current lady skaters to get all up in arms for any one of them (I follow men, pairs, recently dance much more). What I will get in arms against is blatant cheating. It does a disservice to both good and not-so-good skaters.

    At the moment, my favourite skater is Jason Brown. I'm invested in his journey and take pleasure from his performances and success. Yet, I'd much prefer him never to get higher than, say, bronze or even fourth at worlds with a tough and fair tech panel than see him make obvious mistakes and get three golds over a more deserving skater due to influence from his fed or whoever/whatever other instance. I want to be able to celebrate with a good conscience.

  11. #1421
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Agreed.

    It's so weird -- Kim skates clean in her SP with 3Z+3T, and is tied with Sotnikova skating clean with a 3T+3T.

    At Euros, Lipnitskaia skates clean in her SP with 3Z+3T, and is higher than Kostner skating clean with a 3T+3T.

    These would be completely outrageous if the SP consisted of one scored element.

  12. #1422
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ven View Post
    Don't forget Sotnikova should have received both a downgrade and an edge call, and the step sequence levels should have been reversed. How many points differential is that? Not to mention her excessive PCS and GOEs. If she had been scored accurately she would have been about 20 points lower and 15 shy of Kim.
    20 points? I'm assuming you're being hyperbolic. That would have put her behind Gold... who had a fall.

  13. #1423
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-Skwantch View Post
    Can I ask what is the point in all this? We can discuss/debate all day and even until our fingers callous. The truth is nothing we say will change anything. Instead of focusing unnecessarily on Sotnikova and judging failures at some point we need to just move this to the Yuna fanfest and begin to celebrate one of the greatest careers this sport has ever known. I would join in for sure Why not just let things play out, as they will regardless of anything said here, and instead focus our energy on how Yuna made an undeniable presence on the ice. Everyone has said their piece by now. Unless some new development takes place then what's the point?
    I like how yours is the one rational comment in the entire thread and it's instantly shot down.

  14. #1424
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    20 points? I'm assuming you're being hyperbolic. That would have put her behind Gold... who had a fall.
    A little hyperbolic but not as much as you think. Sotnikova's 3-3 should have been downgraded, and she should have received an edge call. How many points does she lose there? The step sequence levels should have been swapped, that's another 2 points. Her PCS had never been above 63.99 her entire career, then at Euros (when she did NOT have "the skate of her life") her PCS jumped to almost 70 and then 74 at Olympics, essentially tying Kim for the highest of all time. It looks to me like the fix was in by the time of Euros, and one has to throw out her PCS score from there as well as Olympics and consider those rigged. So in a fair competition consistent with what Sotnikova had done in her career ... what kind of boost do you think she should have received on 63.99 for skating like she did in Sochi? Mid-high 60s fair? That's another 6-8 points.

    So PCS + Levels = 8-10 points, then you have the downgrades on the jumps, plus whatever excessive GOEs she received.

    And that's why the outcome was so outrageous to so many people, from casual fans to skating insiders, from countries all over the world. These weren't two close skaters separated by a point or two and the competition just happened to go one way over another, winners win and losers stop crying. This was a case where, had the competition been fair, Kim would have been 10 points(?) ahead of Sotnikova, but suddenly the Russian wins by 5?

    ETA: And that's just the free skate! We're not even talking about the short program scores, which were also subject to a lot of debate.

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    Let's take a closer look at some of the PCS categories.

    Skating Skills...
    Here are the number of 9.5s (or better) received in the Sochi Free Skate

    Sotnikova: 4
    Kim: 3
    Kostner: 1
    Everyone else: 0

    Does anyone on earth think Sotnikova has better skating skills than Kim or Kostner, or even anywhere near the same league as them? She had received in the 7s her entire career, but suddenly a majority of the judges felt her basic skating skills had increased overnight into the 9s and more judges viewed her basic skating skills as superior to Kim and Kostner's. That's why I don't buy the B.S. that one or two rogue judges influenced the results. To me, the SS component is one example where it's clear the fixing of the results was widespread throughout the ISU and the federations, from the technical panel to the judges. There were many, many people involved in fixing the outcome for Russia, and that's why I continue to insist that the shroud of suspicion falls on the entire ISU and its federations.

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