Technology to Measure Figure Skating: Imagine | Golden Skate

Technology to Measure Figure Skating: Imagine

Anna K.

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Country
Latvia
Figure skating as a sport started in 18th and 19th centuries when it was technically impossible to measure the speed or get other characteristics of an object that moves freely instead of making a certain distance. It has all changed today. So, can FS finally benefit from the technology progress?

Please, think about it as an alternative imaginary event and say how you would like it. Would you find it interesting to watch? What would you change/invent if you had an opportunity to develop it?

I’ve been thinking about it for a while and that’s how far I am by now:

Like several members of this forum have also noted, sensors in skates would be a good technical solution. They would bring all information that we otherwise get from the marks on the ice – this is all about footwork, under/over-rotations, edges, and similar – to the computer. This would be incredibly interesting material for analysis if nothing else. The computer could also detect if moves have been done in sync with the music.
It is less clear if the upper body movement should be also measured. I’d say yes: there are some strictly physical aspects of body movement – like, jump heights – that makes sense to measure by technical means. Also, it matters if the body moves with music too, not skates alone.

Then, there’s the most interesting part: what to do with all technical data when they’re gathered? Should the computer count the points brought in by every element like it’s done under CoP? Or, should it simply rank skaters after comparing their data?
Above everything: would the work that technology does be sufficient to measure figure skating? I’d say yes, it would. We talk about human factor; then, why don’t we trust this factor instead of using it as an excuse? Skaters are not stupid. The competition is their star moment. They should know: if they won’t look attractive or entertaining during those few minutes when all eyes are on them then there will be no contracts, no shows, and no future career. Despite that there would be no human judges to impress by costumes and choreography the public would be still around and that's what really counts :)
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Speed would be an interesting thing, although it's hard to say how that can be measured to benefit a skater. The best skates have bursts of speed and a slower section or spins.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
As risk of sounding like a total luddite, I think there actually should be LESS technology at the judging booth, not more. I feel that replays and other judging tools have given judges (well, the technical panel) way too much power.

I love technology and feel it has a role in skating (namely in improving skaters during practice), but think judging should be done more in real time.
 
Last edited:

Anna K.

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Country
Latvia
Speed would be an interesting thing, although it's hard to say how that can be measured to benefit a skater. The best skates have bursts of speed and a slower section or spins.

There are many ways it could benefit or just be interesting to know: maximum speed achieved, highest medium speed in total, the speed of certain elements/sequences - like footwork sections. However, it's still an open question where it should count or not; or, should it be the main or a secodary criterion.
 

BlackPack

Medalist
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
Wow, that's another mini-Plushenko if I ever saw one. The hair, the spin positions, the posture. Neat device too. I'm sure it has practical uses in terms of determining rotations on spins.

Mishin definitely has a type :laugh:

They can measure spins, rotations, and even speed, but PCS will always be elusive and subjective. They only way to do it would be to eliminate PCS and artistry and that will turn figure skating into speed-skating. The artistry and talent is what draws us to the sport after all. There's no way to eliminate subjectivity and thus opportunistic judging.
 

OS

Sedated by Modonium
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
I have put these ideas forward around 2010/2011 once I learned more about the COP and exploit ways to crack the system (it can be done via technical panel, and minimum 2 judges. Read Patrick Iben interview). I have even put forward 2 panels of judges one for TES one for PCS, but many discounted it was impractical due to cost. In the end I find it is wholly impractical since imo it is precisely these insistence on human judging (which allows scope of human error which can be used to justify any manipulation) that keeps the current governing body in power. They will never let that power go, since it will invalidate their very reason of existence. My observation of these past years is the ISU seems to be run by a culture of cronyism, to serve the interests of the powerful few by trading medals like some sort of musical chairs and ruled with an iron fist by Speedy, with little real consideration to the individual skaters and the overall sporting interests other than their own.

The health of any sport can usually been seen in the diversity of partakers (many nationalities) and economy of scale (audience, market) which include rewards in prize money. This is simply not the case in this sport, despite the attractive multidisciplinary quality this beautiful sport offers which can be a marketer's dream, it is very likely to have kept deliberately small enough to exert more complete control vs a large size economy that can get out of control.

Actually speaking of technology, I am surprised no one mentioned how easy it is to cheat through technology.

For example IF I really want to cheat, I will create a program that can be bolt onto the existing COP software of calculation at certain events that I want to have great control over the outcome. I will have minimum 2, ideal 4 judges on my side to mark normally but during the 3-4 minutes kiss and cry time, I can simply enter a desirable score, then this bolt on software can work out all the figures within an acceptable parameter out of my 2-4 judges relative to other fair judges to create an approximate desirable result (narrow set of shared corridors) from the original score entered. As long as my judges don't come forward and say THAT IS NOT WHAT I MARKED and there are no recordings/evidence of what they actually entered. I can easily get away with all sort of things.

This further support why judges should not be anonymous, there need to be transparency and accountability in the judging. If it is anonymous, then their markings should be marked ideally pen on paper to have an official record that can not be doctored. Or if via a button, at least the audiences should able see in live time what score they entered at the bottom of the screen (even if they don't show the face of the judges). There should be recordings on any changes that affect the score AS it happens.
 

Anna K.

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Country
Latvia
They can measure spins, rotations, and even speed, but PCS will always be elusive and subjective. They only way to do it would be to eliminate PCS and artistry and that will turn figure skating into speed-skating. The artistry and talent is what draws us to the sport after all. There's no way to eliminate subjectivity and thus opportunistic judging.

I can't disagree more.
Only complete elimination of PCS and subjective/politized judges can give talent and artistry a chance!
Quoting myself: if we talk about human factor then why don’t we trust this factor instead of using it as an excuse to tolerate corruption? Skaters are not stupid. The competition is their star moment. They should know: if they won’t look attractive or entertaining during those few minutes when all eyes are on them then there will be no contracts, no shows, and no future career. Despite that there would be no judges to impress by costumes and choreography, the public would be still around and that's what really counts. By now, skaters wear hilarious costumes and choose boring music because "judges like it" and don't care what the general public is living with. I don't think this situation drives this sport. It's holding it back.
 

BlackPack

Medalist
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
I can't disagree more.
Only complete elimination of PCS and subjective/politized judges can give talent and artistry a chance!
Quoting myself: if we talk about human factor then why don’t we trust this factor instead of using it as an excuse to tolerate corruption? Skaters are not stupid. The competition is their star moment. They should know: if they won’t look attractive or entertaining during those few minutes when all eyes are on them then there will be no contracts, no shows, and no future career. Despite that there would be no judges to impress by costumes and choreography, the public would be still around and that's what really counts By now, skaters wear hilarious costumes and choose boring music because "judges like it" and don't care what the general public is living with. I don't think this situation drives this sport. It's holding it back.

OK, but there was another thread that mentioned the Min Zhang with 3 quads would have won. So you're suggesting that only spins, speed, and rotations be measured? Not being smart here, I need to understand what you're really saying.

Because if there's no PCS, there's no incentive for skaters to be creative.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
As risk of sounding like a total luddite, I think there actually should be LESS technology at the judging booth, not more. I feel that replays and other judging tools have given judges (well, the technical panel) way too much power.

I love technology and feel it has a role in skating (namely in improving skaters during practice), but think judging should be done more in real time.

I think it does lend some level of accountability. If they DIDN'T have the technology to do replays, they would be inclined to just subjectively neglect URs/flutzes for the favourites or nail visiting skaters. They know now that TV stations are showing replays of the skaters' landings, and they know now that everyone knows they have access to looking at these landings/takeoffs and assessing them. So the pressure is on them to make calls that correlate with what the viewers are seeing.
 

Anna K.

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Country
Latvia
So you're suggesting that only spins, speed, and rotations be measured? Not being smart here, I need to understand what you're really saying.

Absolutely not only that: at least also footwork and synchronism with music. Did you actually read the post I started this thread with?
 

Anna K.

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Country
Latvia
In the end I find it is wholly impractical since imo it is precisely these insistence on human judging (which allows scope of human error which can be used to justify any manipulation) that keeps the current governing body in power. They will never let that power go, since it will invalidate their very reason of existence. My observation of these past year is the ISU is clearly run by cronyism, to serve the interests of the few by trading medals like some sort of musical chairs and ruled with an iron fist by Speedy, with little real consideration to the individual skaters and the overall sporting interests other than their own.

The health of any sport can usually been seen in the diversity of partakers (many nationalities) and economy of scale (audience, market) which include rewards in prize money. This is simply not the case in this sport, despite the attractive multidisciplinary quality this beautiful sport offers which can be a marketer's dream, it is very likely to have kept deliberately small enough to exert more complete control vs a large size economy that can get out of control.

Do you think there's a realistic chance of an alternative commercial and radical, measured ONLY by TECHNOLOGY, event to happen outside of the realm of ISU?
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
OK, but there was another thread that mentioned the Min Zhang with 3 quads would have won. So you're suggesting that only spins, speed, and rotations be measured? Not being smart here, I need to understand what you're really saying.

Because if there's no PCS, there's no incentive for skaters to be creative.

An artistry-devoid Min Zhang with 3 quads should EASILY win over even the most artistic skater who doesn't attempt a quad or triple axel, or fails on attempts at these. Surya had the most horrendous skating skills but if she outjumps/outperforms other skaters, she deserves to place higher. Figure skating needs to be treated as a sport. Artistry is not nearly as sport-orientated as technical elements. I agree that it takes control, conditioning and body awareness to create lines, etc. and all that to execute artistry, but expression and projection should be secondary to things like edge work, difficulty/intricacy/transitions, and of course jumps/spins/footwork. There's a reason why interpretive/artistics aren't their own event in the Olympics - heck, ice dancing was essentially that for a long time before elements started to define it as a sport instead of glorified theatre.

Those saying Takahashi deserved 1st in PCS in Sochi in spite of not even coming close to a quad are absolutely ridiculous, and that's the type of thing that makes people not take the sport seriously. I would have been as outraged at Lysacek beating Plushenko in spite of no quad, if not for Plushenko showing a lack of technical intricacy/difficulty outside of the elements.

I think that PCS should be marginalized than what it is now. It's totally subjective. You look at other sports that are judged and the technical/objective judges have much more worth than the "aesthetic"/subjective judges. Skaters who are devoid of artistry should theoretically still be able to win or place high thanks to their execution of difficult elements. Skaters who fail to land or omit difficult elements should not be able to win or place high thanks to their subjective artistry.
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2013
Country
United-States
I am 100% with Mrs. P and instead of using more technology I really would prefer that the judges simply explain their marks in little 3-4 sentence minimum explanation next to each mark. So if they want to cheat(abuse interpretation of rules)we can see how they can explain it and the system will slowly adapt to correct itself. I think transparency is the key. I'm not old but certainly a fuddy duddy in this regard.

Judging the actual speed and spin-rate is fine for practice but this isn't a race or a dunk contest. The judges need to be concerned with the effectiveness of the speed of skating and spins in relation to the program at hand. Not the speed itself. Great idea for a thread but I just so happen to disagree. Sorry.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Personally, I am not eager to see the sport go increasingly high tech. The interplay among the skaters, judges, and audience is, to me, part of its allure. I would not want to see figure skating become some sort of kinesthetic laboratory experiment where every muscle contraction is recorded and catalogued by a computer.

By the same token I would not be much interested in replacing human skaters with robots programmed to maximize CoP points. (Hmm -- actually, that would be pretty interesting.)
 

capcomeback

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
OK, but there was another thread that mentioned the Min Zhang with 3 quads would have won. So you're suggesting that only spins, speed, and rotations be measured? Not being smart here, I need to understand what you're really saying.

Because if there's no PCS, there's no incentive for skaters to be creative.

The problem here is that PCS does not truly measure artistry, if what Sochi tells us is true (again, assuming no corruption, which might be a big assumption, lol).

Adelina's choreography was busy with transitions, but lacked musicality. She managed to ring up scores by checking boxes, but their was no real artistry there, IMHO (as a musician I have a little insight here). I felt no connection between her and the music for at least 2/3 of the program. It seemed better after that part, but ironically that is when a lot of the choreography stopped (meaning that she can't feel the music and utilize artistic movement in her choreography at the same time). Still, if you check off enough boxes and have a busy program, you can get inflated PCS marks. This what happens when you try to quantify something that cannot be adequately measured. If this is reflective of what the sport has become, then do away with PCS. At least it's an honest way of pointing out that this sport has just turned into jumping and spinning contests.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Personally, I am not eager to see the sport go increasingly high tech. The interplay among the skaters, judges, and audience is, to me, part of its allure. I would not want to see figure skating become some sort of kinesthetic laboratory experiment where every muscle contraction is recorded and catalogued by a computer.

By the same token I would not be much interested in replacing human skaters with robots programmed to maximize CoP points. (Hmm -- actually, that would be pretty interesting.)

I thoroughly agree. Figure skating shouldn't be solely about technical proficiency where everything is measured. But the issues and controversies are surrounding primarily the artistic side of the sport (PCS marking), and thus artistry should be secondary to technical excellence. If you want artistry to be heavily important, there should be separate artistic competitions, or you could always go watch an exhibition.
 
Top