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Thread: Selection procedures for ISU judging panels

  1. #16
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    gkelly, I'm not sure professional judges are the only solution to the problem. I think you can still have judges originate from national federations, but that the federations then need to be divorced from the selection of big event judges. I'm not sure the ISU has the budget to pay judges much, and that too could lead to conflict of interest.

  2. #17
    Size 7 Knife Boots Sam-Skwantch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by karne View Post
    There are many good skaters from little countries who don't get the PCS they deserve. Denis Ten was one of them up until he forced them to pay attention.

    Then there are skaters from big countries who get excessive PCS primarily on their big country status. Chan is one of them. Hanyu is another.
    Completely agree...the first part of my post said...just to play devil's advocate.

    Just addressing a possible runaway effect in the opposite direction.

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    Size 7 Knife Boots Sam-Skwantch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonlightSkater View Post
    gkelly, I'm not sure professional judges are the only solution to the problem. I think you can still have judges originate from national federations, but that the federations then need to be divorced from the selection of big event judges. I'm not sure the ISU has the budget to pay judges much, and that too could lead to conflict of interest.
    I'm probably a broken record on this but if the judges are asked/required to explain each mark in a 3-4 sentence reply...wouldn't it be harder to cheat. At the very least we'll see how cheating is justified and adjust the rules.

    ITA with divorcing the Feds from selecting judges to the panels!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-Skwantch View Post
    I'm probably a broken record on this but if the judges are asked/required to explain each mark in a 3-4 sentence reply...wouldn't it be harder to cheat. At the very least we'll see how cheating is justified and adjust the rules.

    ITA with divorcing the Feds from selecting judges to the panels!
    I agree with all of the above.

  5. #20
    Yulia and Ruslena team forever! Alba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by capcomeback View Post
    For example, how did Alla Shekhovtseva get into the pool of thirteen for the women's event? She is much better known as an Ice Dancing judge and until recent years really just started judging singles. The bottom line is she got into the pool because of her husband.

    Alesander Lakenrik flexed his muscles with the ISU (and therefore the IOC) and he got the prime gig as tech controller for the ladies event.

    God knows why they let a convicted felon (Yuri Balkov) who fixed games back in the sport. Pete Rose received a lifetime ban from baseball for betting ON (not against) his own team. Balkov has no business judging a Junoir event, let alone the Olympics with a list this long of qualified judges.

    There has to be a better way of assigning officials for this sport.
    According to Beverly Smith: Olga Baranova is by all accounts, quite good at her job.

    Alla can't judge dance anymore. Alexander Gorshkov stepped down from his long-time role as chairman of the ISU’s ice dance technical committee and became president of the russian federation. There was the vacancy on the ISU dance tech. com. so she decided to run for it and got the seat.
    It meant she could no longer judge ice dancing but she can judge the other disciplines.

    http://bevsmithwrites.wordpress.com/...s-controversy/

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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonlightSkater View Post
    gkelly, I'm not sure professional judges are the only solution to the problem. I think you can still have judges originate from national federations, but that the federations then need to be divorced from the selection of big event judges. I'm not sure the ISU has the budget to pay judges much, and that too could lead to conflict of interest.
    That's probably one reason such suggestions have never gotten off the ground with the ISU.

    The other main reason would be that small federations won't vote for it, out of fear that all the jobs would go to judges from big federations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-Skwantch View Post
    I'm probably a broken record on this but if the judges are asked/required to explain each mark in a 3-4 sentence reply...wouldn't it be harder to cheat. At the very least we'll see how cheating is justified and adjust the rules.
    3-4 sentences for each mark for every skater? It would take days to write up the reports. Especially for judges who learned English only for judging purposes and have no need to write English anywhere else in their lives.

    Maybe just take good enough notes in whatever shorthand they like to use so that they can write at least one word (up to a whole paragraph if appropriate) for each GOE and at least one sentence but often a whole paragraph for each component. Only for the medalists, and any other controversial skater the referee requests explanations on?

    ITA with divorcing the Feds from selecting judges to the panels!
    So how could this work?

  7. #22
    Yulia and Ruslena team forever! Alba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-Skwantch View Post
    I'm probably a broken record on this but if the judges are asked/required to explain each mark in a 3-4 sentence reply...wouldn't it be harder to cheat. At the very least we'll see how cheating is justified and adjust the rules.
    I'm not sure that will bring much. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fY7nU3LgYOg
    Listen to the German, USA and Japanese judge. Practically they have based their marks on their subjective emotion. What are you going to do about that?

    ITA with divorcing the Feds from selecting judges to the panels
    They need to do that for all the events though, even for the nationals.
    Last edited by Mathman; 03-14-2014 at 09:14 PM. Reason: Adjust usage.

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    3-4 sentences for each mark for every skater? It would take days to write up the reports. Especially for judges who learned English only for judging purposes and have no need to write English anywhere else in their lives.
    Could they not at least identify which bullet points they used to award GOE levels. I would imagine they all understand those and could say for example...

    Skater A

    2A-3t-2t +2 GOE. Bullets satisfied (1,3,5)

    I would imagine a two to three sentence explanation for PCS marks should be achievable even if in their own language. Translated upon request by an ISU translator. I would imagine they are already there in mass. You could only do it for the last flight and upon request and subject to approval after that if necessary. You could establish a point barrier within 3rd place that automatic gets the explanations for tight fields going 8 places deep.

    So how could this work
    That's tricky and my initial thoughts are all over the place. Ill have to think about that.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alba View Post
    According to Beverly Smith: Olga Baranova is by all accounts, quite good at her job.

    Alla can't judge dance anymore. Alexander Gorshkov stepped down from his long-time role as chairman of the ISU’s ice dance technical committee and became president of the russian federation. There was the vacancy on the ISU dance tech. com. so she decided to run for it and got the seat.
    It meant she could no longer judge ice dancing but she can judge the other disciplines.

    http://bevsmithwrites.wordpress.com/...s-controversy/
    Mistakes or intentional bad calls were made by that panel. Whether they were made for Ms. Baronova, Vanessa Gusmeroli (the other caller) or wrongly overruled or judged by Mr. Lakernik. it does not change the fact that Adelina was given credit for completing jumps properly that she did not execute correctly (missing edge call for the 3Lz and the UR for the 3-T she did in combination) and her turn and footwork sequences apparently were mistakenly credited as Level 4. Maybe this was not on Ms. Baronova (maybe on one of the other two). Maybe she had a bad day. I don't know. All I know was their calls had an unfair effect on Adelina's score. The judging took it from there.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    3-4 sentences for each mark for every skater? It would take days to write up the reports. Especially for judges who learned English only for judging purposes and have no need to write English anywhere else in their lives.
    How about just for the top 3 or 4, since these are usually the most debated anyway? It doesn't need to be 3-4 sentences but at least 1 sentence, we can even lend them the GS emoticons. Or do a sponsorship deal with twitter

  11. #26
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    Wow, the thread is just a few hours old and there's already much food for thought. Thanks for starting it, gkelly.

    Ever since Sochi I've been wondering if it would at be possible/practical to limit judges at major competitions to those from countries who don't have skaters in the final group of each phase (SP, LP). On one hand, a rule like this would no doubt cause a helluva lot of squawking from major federations whose skaters frequently end up on the podium. OTOH, it seems to me that this approach -- eliminating those countries w/ real skin in the game -- might help to get rid of at least some of the bias, albeit with the understanding that a certain amount of bribery and horse-trading may always be in the mix. Again, I don't know if this is even practical. One issue that comes to mind is whether exclusions like this would make the judging pool too narrow and/or leave the pool with people who aren't sufficiently qualified. Wanted to put the idea out there, although a full-scale overhaul would certainly be preferable.

    Do retired skaters ever do any judging? I think it would be great; after all, who knows more than they do about what they're watching? I'm guessing it doesn't happen very much b/c judging isn't nearly as glamorous or lucrative as TV commentary, etc. Still, one doesn't have to be an elite-level skater to be skate-savvy, which has been clearly demonstrated by many of the posts in these threads. Moreover, it sounds to me like some GS posters are already well on their way to being qualified to judge major competitions! More than anything else, what judging needs is people who have the depth of knowledge, passion, and commitment to the sport I've seen on these boards.

    Paying judges might help and payment might make judging more attractive to more people (although it's hard to imagine not needing other income sources!). The idea of ISU-paid judges makes me uneasy, though. IMO, the best thing that could happen to figure skating right about now is for it to become separate from the ISU. It surprises me that FS is still tied to the ISU, unless it's because Speedy is hanging onto it to use as a cash cow. After all, although FS doesn't have a huge audience these days, it probably still has more fans than speed skating. The cash cow idea is pure speculation -- someone please correct if I'm totally off base here. Also, this is not to cast any aspersions at all on speed skating, which I also enjoy.

    A while ago, wasn't Dick Button working w/ a bunch of other luminaries to detach FS from the ISU? Is that idea still alive? Hope that happens one of these days.

    Lastly, end the anonymity!

    Looking forward to reading more of everyone's ideas.
    Last edited by skatedreamer; 03-14-2014 at 09:14 PM. Reason: can't stop thinking about this!

  12. #27
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    IMO, the biggest outstanding issue with skating officials is that those who are caught cheating should not be allowed to come back and be judges again. One of the most infamous examples, of course, is Yuri Balkov. Once you are caught exchanging secret phone calls before an event about how you are going to rank the skaters or are caught on camera using toe motions under the judges table, you should be gone for life. No athlete can ever feel confident again that they will be fairly judged by such a person. And it looks particularly bad to the non-skating general public when people like this are allowed back. When it was mentioned in some of the articles on judging last month that Yuri Balkov was one of the judges in Sochi, you can understand why the general public often thinks this sport is corrupt.

  13. #28
    Landing 3As in my dreams! skatedreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    How about just for the top 3 or 4, since these are usually the most debated anyway? It doesn't need to be 3-4 sentences but at least 1 sentence, we can even lend them the GS emoticons. Or do a sponsorship deal with twitter
    Agree that this would make it more do-able, but how would it work? You mean each judge would only have to explain his/her top 3-4 choices? Asking b/c unless it's done for everyone, seems like you're almost adding to the impression that the winners are decided ahead of time.

    Hope that makes sense. It's getting late here and I've been so interested in this that I forgot all about dinner!

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alba View Post
    According to Beverly Smith: Olga Baranova is by all accounts, quite good at her job.

    Alla can't judge dance anymore. Alexander Gorshkov stepped down from his long-time role as chairman of the ISU’s ice dance technical committee and became president of the russian federation. There was the vacancy on the ISU dance tech. com. so she decided to run for it and got the seat.
    It meant she could no longer judge ice dancing but she can judge the other disciplines.

    http://bevsmithwrites.wordpress.com/...s-controversy/
    There are several errors in Bev Smith's article. If both the Tech Specialist and Asst. Tech Specialist agree on a call, Lakernik (the tech controller) CANNOT change it. And Alla S. can still judge ice dancing despite being on the IDTC, but she is limited to judge only 3 ice dance events per year. She is qualified to judge singles/pairs and has opted for those disciplines this season.

  15. #30
    Size 7 Knife Boots Sam-Skwantch's Avatar
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    Could they not at least identify which bullet points they used to award GOE levels. I would imagine they all understand those and could say for example...

    Skater A

    2A-3t-2t +2 GOE. Bullets satisfied (1,3,5)

    I would imagine a two to three sentence explanation for PCS marks should be achievable even if in their own language. Translated upon request by an ISU translator. I would imagine they are already there in mass. You could only do it for the last flight and upon request and subject to approval after that if necessary. You could establish a point barrier within 3rd place that automatic gets the explanations for tight fields going 8 places deep.
    I know I'm quoting myself but is this not a good place to start? Any suggestions?

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