Selection procedures for ISU judging panels | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Selection procedures for ISU judging panels

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
gkelly, I'm not sure professional judges are the only solution to the problem. I think you can still have judges originate from national federations, but that the federations then need to be divorced from the selection of big event judges. I'm not sure the ISU has the budget to pay judges much, and that too could lead to conflict of interest.

That's probably one reason such suggestions have never gotten off the ground with the ISU.

The other main reason would be that small federations won't vote for it, out of fear that all the jobs would go to judges from big federations.

I'm probably a broken record on this but if the judges are asked/required to explain each mark in a 3-4 sentence reply...wouldn't it be harder to cheat. At the very least we'll see how cheating is justified and adjust the rules.

3-4 sentences for each mark for every skater? It would take days to write up the reports. Especially for judges who learned English only for judging purposes and have no need to write English anywhere else in their lives.

Maybe just take good enough notes in whatever shorthand they like to use so that they can write at least one word (up to a whole paragraph if appropriate) for each GOE and at least one sentence but often a whole paragraph for each component. Only for the medalists, and any other controversial skater the referee requests explanations on?

ITA with divorcing the Feds from selecting judges to the panels!

So how could this work?
 

Alba

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 26, 2014
I'm probably a broken record on this but if the judges are asked/required to explain each mark in a 3-4 sentence reply...wouldn't it be harder to cheat. At the very least we'll see how cheating is justified and adjust the rules.

I'm not sure that will bring much. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fY7nU3LgYOg
Listen to the German, USA and Japanese judge. Practically they have based their marks on their subjective emotion. What are you going to do about that?

ITA with divorcing the Feds from selecting judges to the panels

They need to do that for all the events though, even for the nationals.
 
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Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
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Dec 29, 2013
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3-4 sentences for each mark for every skater? It would take days to write up the reports. Especially for judges who learned English only for judging purposes and have no need to write English anywhere else in their lives.

Could they not at least identify which bullet points they used to award GOE levels. I would imagine they all understand those and could say for example...

Skater A

2A-3t-2t +2 GOE. Bullets satisfied (1,3,5)

I would imagine a two to three sentence explanation for PCS marks should be achievable even if in their own language. Translated upon request by an ISU translator. I would imagine they are already there in mass. You could only do it for the last flight and upon request and subject to approval after that if necessary. You could establish a point barrier within 3rd place that automatic gets the explanations for tight fields going 8 places deep.

So how could this work
That's tricky and my initial thoughts are all over the place. Ill have to think about that.
 

capcomeback

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
According to Beverly Smith: Olga Baranova is by all accounts, quite good at her job.

Alla can't judge dance anymore. Alexander Gorshkov stepped down from his long-time role as chairman of the ISU’s ice dance technical committee and became president of the russian federation. There was the vacancy on the ISU dance tech. com. so she decided to run for it and got the seat.
It meant she could no longer judge ice dancing but she can judge the other disciplines.

http://bevsmithwrites.wordpress.com/2014/02/22/more-on-the-womens-controversy/

Mistakes or intentional bad calls were made by that panel. Whether they were made for Ms. Baronova, Vanessa Gusmeroli (the other caller) or wrongly overruled or judged by Mr. Lakernik. it does not change the fact that Adelina was given credit for completing jumps properly that she did not execute correctly (missing edge call for the 3Lz and the UR for the 3-T she did in combination) and her turn and footwork sequences apparently were mistakenly credited as Level 4. Maybe this was not on Ms. Baronova (maybe on one of the other two). Maybe she had a bad day. I don't know. All I know was their calls had an unfair effect on Adelina's score. The judging took it from there.
 

OS

Sedated by Modonium
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
3-4 sentences for each mark for every skater? It would take days to write up the reports. Especially for judges who learned English only for judging purposes and have no need to write English anywhere else in their lives.

How about just for the top 3 or 4, since these are usually the most debated anyway? It doesn't need to be 3-4 sentences but at least 1 sentence, we can even lend them the GS emoticons. :love: :agree: :clap: :bow: Or do a sponsorship deal with twitter :laugh:
 

skatedreamer

Medalist
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Feb 18, 2014
Country
United-States
Wow, the thread is just a few hours old and there's already much food for thought. Thanks for starting it, gkelly.

Ever since Sochi I've been wondering if it would at be possible/practical to limit judges at major competitions to those from countries who don't have skaters in the final group of each phase (SP, LP). On one hand, a rule like this would no doubt cause a helluva lot of squawking from major federations whose skaters frequently end up on the podium. OTOH, it seems to me that this approach -- eliminating those countries w/ real skin in the game -- might help to get rid of at least some of the bias, albeit with the understanding that a certain amount of bribery and horse-trading may always be in the mix. Again, I don't know if this is even practical. One issue that comes to mind is whether exclusions like this would make the judging pool too narrow and/or leave the pool with people who aren't sufficiently qualified. Wanted to put the idea out there, although a full-scale overhaul would certainly be preferable.

Do retired skaters ever do any judging? I think it would be great; after all, who knows more than they do about what they're watching? I'm guessing it doesn't happen very much b/c judging isn't nearly as glamorous or lucrative as TV commentary, etc. Still, one doesn't have to be an elite-level skater to be skate-savvy, which has been clearly demonstrated by many of the posts in these threads. Moreover, it sounds to me like some GS posters are already well on their way to being qualified to judge major competitions! More than anything else, what judging needs is people who have the depth of knowledge, passion, and commitment to the sport I've seen on these boards. :bow:

Paying judges might help and payment might make judging more attractive to more people (although it's hard to imagine not needing other income sources!). The idea of ISU-paid judges makes me uneasy, though. IMO, the best thing that could happen to figure skating right about now is for it to become separate from the ISU. It surprises me that FS is still tied to the ISU, unless it's because Speedy is hanging onto it to use as a cash cow. After all, although FS doesn't have a huge audience these days, it probably still has more fans than speed skating. The cash cow idea is pure speculation -- someone please correct if I'm totally off base here. Also, this is not to cast any aspersions at all on speed skating, which I also enjoy.

A while ago, wasn't Dick Button working w/ a bunch of other luminaries to detach FS from the ISU? Is that idea still alive? Hope that happens one of these days.

Lastly, end the anonymity!

Looking forward to reading more of everyone's ideas.
 
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Ryan O

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 5, 2004
Country
Canada
IMO, the biggest outstanding issue with skating officials is that those who are caught cheating should not be allowed to come back and be judges again. One of the most infamous examples, of course, is Yuri Balkov. Once you are caught exchanging secret phone calls before an event about how you are going to rank the skaters or are caught on camera using toe motions under the judges table, you should be gone for life. No athlete can ever feel confident again that they will be fairly judged by such a person. And it looks particularly bad to the non-skating general public when people like this are allowed back. When it was mentioned in some of the articles on judging last month that Yuri Balkov was one of the judges in Sochi, you can understand why the general public often thinks this sport is corrupt.
 

skatedreamer

Medalist
Joined
Feb 18, 2014
Country
United-States
How about just for the top 3 or 4, since these are usually the most debated anyway? It doesn't need to be 3-4 sentences but at least 1 sentence, we can even lend them the GS emoticons. :love: :agree: :clap: :bow: Or do a sponsorship deal with twitter :laugh:

Agree that this would make it more do-able, but how would it work? You mean each judge would only have to explain his/her top 3-4 choices? Asking b/c unless it's done for everyone, seems like you're almost adding to the impression that the winners are decided ahead of time.

Hope that makes sense. It's getting late here and I've been so interested in this that I forgot all about dinner!
 

KKonas

Medalist
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
According to Beverly Smith: Olga Baranova is by all accounts, quite good at her job.

Alla can't judge dance anymore. Alexander Gorshkov stepped down from his long-time role as chairman of the ISU’s ice dance technical committee and became president of the russian federation. There was the vacancy on the ISU dance tech. com. so she decided to run for it and got the seat.
It meant she could no longer judge ice dancing but she can judge the other disciplines.

http://bevsmithwrites.wordpress.com/2014/02/22/more-on-the-womens-controversy/

There are several errors in Bev Smith's article. If both the Tech Specialist and Asst. Tech Specialist agree on a call, Lakernik (the tech controller) CANNOT change it. And Alla S. can still judge ice dancing despite being on the IDTC, but she is limited to judge only 3 ice dance events per year. She is qualified to judge singles/pairs and has opted for those disciplines this season.
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
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Could they not at least identify which bullet points they used to award GOE levels. I would imagine they all understand those and could say for example...

Skater A

2A-3t-2t +2 GOE. Bullets satisfied (1,3,5)

I would imagine a two to three sentence explanation for PCS marks should be achievable even if in their own language. Translated upon request by an ISU translator. I would imagine they are already there in mass. You could only do it for the last flight and upon request and subject to approval after that if necessary. You could establish a point barrier within 3rd place that automatic gets the explanations for tight fields going 8 places deep.

I know I'm quoting myself but is this not a good place to start? Any suggestions?
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Agree that this would make it more do-able, but how would it work? You mean each judge would only have to explain his/her top 3-4 choices? Asking b/c unless it's done for everyone, seems like you're almost adding to the impression that the winners are decided ahead of time.

Well, they'd have to take notes on every skater, but the notes would be in shorthand, probably each judge's individual symbols that no one else could interpret. So then they'd be prepared to turn their notes into words for the few skaters who end up in the top places.

I know I'm quoting myself but is this not a good place to start?

Yes, definitely a good place to start. But again the judges would probably need more memorable shorthand for each bullet than just the numbers.
 

usethis2

Medalist
Joined
Feb 11, 2014
For federations that have more than one qualified judge, the federation gets to choose which individual to send. That's why judges are afraid of pressure from their federations and may be willing to compromise their judging standards in response to such pressure -- if they don't judge the way the federation wants, they won't get chosen again in the future.
That is a little strange because according to some being a judge is not really a privilege but rather an honorable service. What does one lose for not being able to serve as a judge? Free travels?
 

KKonas

Medalist
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
Lots of reading to do. Thanks gkelly. If ISU severe ties of federation with its own judges (ie/ Judge are independent professional with fully paid salary and full autonomy and full disclosure), maybe it can solve the issue.



Yeah looking at that extensive list, one wonder how they select the top 9 judges for the SOCHI assignment. What are the chances that Ms Alla Shekhovtseva get assigned to judge Adelina in EVERY SINGLE ONE of her events this season including the Olympics? Sorry, but that is just statistically dodgy.

Re OLympics - Once a federation selects a judge to send to Sochi for their allowed specific discipline, (a draw held months prior) the judge is automatically entered into the pool of judges (13) of which 9 are drawn for each portion of the event 30 minutes prior to the event, so it is not impossible to find oneself on both panels.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
That is a little strange because according to some being a judge is not really a privilege but rather an honorable service. What does one lose for not being able to serve as a judge? Free travels?

The opportunity to provide that service -- at the highest levels, in this case.

Say you put in years of judging at lower levels, watching a lot of bad skating with an occasional highlight, in run-down local rinks, sometimes shivering in hockey boxes when there is no judges' stand, often for hours on end in the cold with few breaks, sometimes with unappealing food served in hockey dressing rooms, etc. etc.

It's not glamorous, but judges do it because they want to support the sport, because they enjoy the process of analyzing skating even when it's not well done, because they occasionally get to see a standout talented skater at the local level, because they like to keep in touch with other officials they met through judging or have known since their own skating days.

Even international judges had to do this in their home countries and often continue to do so -- the sport needs judges to serve all the lower level skaters who may or may not filter up to the higher levels.

And say you're good at it and continue to train (in many cases at your own expense) to get accredited to judge at higher levels, including internationally.

Why go through all that if you won't ever be assigned to judge at that level that you trained for over all those years?
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
gkelly, thank you for keeping our attention on the fact that figure skating judging must serve the interests of the sport at all levels. not just the final flight at the Olympics.
 

Alba

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 26, 2014
There are several errors in Bev Smith's article. If both the Tech Specialist and Asst. Tech Specialist agree on a call, Lakernik (the tech controller) CANNOT change it. And Alla S. can still judge ice dancing despite being on the IDTC, but she is limited to judge only 3 ice dance events per year. She is qualified to judge singles/pairs and has opted for those disciplines this season.

About the Tech Controller I knew she was wrong, you are right. The commentator from Eurosport Ita, and one of the best in figure skating, explained that during the games. I had no idea about Alla and what competitions she can or cannot judge, so I just took that info. from Smith's article to be good.
Thank you for the correct info.
 

Alba

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 26, 2014
Do retired skaters ever do any judging? I think it would be great; after all, who knows more than they do about what they're watching?

Many of them are. Gusmeroli for example, was in the tech.panel in the ladies event.

The ISU has a two-person officials’ assessment commission to monitor major competitions. Each overseer independently watches for anomalies in the scores, reviews them and assesses whether the judges were “correct or incorrect based on the standard.”
Even if both committee members agree there was a discrepancy, they don't know which judge is being assessed and could be penalized, but it would be interested to know the report of this commission about ladies event. Does anyone knows? Is it made public?


Anyway, here is what Karen Butcher said about some aspect of the judging, and I tend to agree with her:

Judging has both objective and subjective marks. There are the technical points for common jumps like a double axel.

"Every skater can do a double axel, so they would get a mark for that, but then there's marks for the way they execute it, which can be more subjective."
http://www.ottawacommunitynews.com/...ident-to-judge-pairs-figure-skating-in-sochi/

Note that here she's referring to a tech.element. Can you imagine about components?
 

capcomeback

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Many of them are. Gusmeroli for example, was in the tech.panel in the ladies event.

The ISU has a two-person officials’ assessment commission to monitor major competitions. Each overseer independently watches for anomalies in the scores, reviews them and assesses whether the judges were “correct or incorrect based on the standard.”
Even if both committee members agree there was a discrepancy, they don't know which judge is being assessed and could be penalized, but it would be interested to know the report of this commission about ladies event. Does anyone knows? Is it made public?


Anyway, here is what Karen Butcher said about some aspect of the judging, and I tend to agree with her:

Judging has both objective and subjective marks. There are the technical points for common jumps like a double axel.

"Every skater can do a double axel, so they would get a mark for that, but then there's marks for the way they execute it, which can be more subjective."
http://www.ottawacommunitynews.com/...ident-to-judge-pairs-figure-skating-in-sochi/

Note that here she's referring to a tech.element. Can you imagine about components?

To me, the biggest problems continue to be conflict of interest and training. Sochi seems to be a big indicator how partisan officiating can be and how these biases can greatly impact the sport.

I don't think anyone can honestly say that Adelina Sotnikova did not skate two overall fine programs. She did. Are there flaws in her skill set and interpretation of her programs? Yes. But that does not mean that she was not a worthy candidate for the podium. Depending on circumstances, she could have rightfully won the gold. The thing is that not enough of those circumstances actually occurred.

By being able to elevate her PCS and GOEs in the TES (and under-penalizing her for her fallout on her 3-2-2), after a tech panel had inflated her turn/footwork sequences and dismissed two substantial errors in her first jumping pass, Adelina easily gained an unfair, double digit point total advantage that should have left her with bronze (this is not even accounting for her huge component scores in her SP).

From what I understand, Yuna fairly deserved her Level 3 Footwork/Turn sequence placement due to an error she made in her SP. The thing is she made no such mistake in her FS and was unfairly penalized with Level 3. Additionally, her GOE's in comparison to Adelina's were unfairly suppressed. Before people say that the two judges under scrutiny could not affect the panel enough to make a difference, just note that in her Free Skate, out of Adelina's 33 "3" GOEs she received, a whopping 18 of them came from just two judges! That means out of a possible 24 GOE marks (12 per judge), these judges award Adelina only 6 GOEs below "3"! (and of those, only 2 below a GOE "2"). Were the other judges watching a different skater?

Yes, I know this is skating" and these kind of things happen, but when they happen on a big stage like the Olympics, all eyes are upon the sport. Some people here keep saying that the "eye test" is "6.0 thinking", but in this case, it appears to be borne out by the facts. If this incident was not a matter of corruption, but of by shear bias, it is important that skating identify who these judges are and either reeducate them or get rid of them.

By limiting conflict of interests and obvious bias, fostering education and eliminating anonymous judging. I think skating has a chance to recapture its popularity. If we keep sliding this slippery slope of being equated with staged professional wrestling, the sport will continued to be seen as a joke to the general populace of the world.
 

OS

Sedated by Modonium
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Re OLympics - Once a federation selects a judge to send to Sochi for their allowed specific discipline, (a draw held months prior) the judge is automatically entered into the pool of judges (13) of which 9 are drawn for each portion of the event 30 minutes prior to the event, so it is not impossible to find oneself on both panels.

Yes I am aware of that, but is it normal to have the same US judge judge at every single one of Gracie's event including the Olympics? One that see her PCS rise at unprecedented rate? I'd raise my eye brows too due to these statistical anomalies.

While I can perhaps understand these judging selection rules made sense 50 years ago when there are less nationalities competing, but I really think by today's standard, it is hopelessly outdated. This not only disadvantages any minor federations who doesn't have their own judges in the selection, it also disadvantage any run away leader, since it is natural for all federations to pressure their own 'assigned' judges to repress main contenders scores in the interest of 'spread the wealth'.

I much prefer if judges became an independent professional enterprise separate from their own Federations. IOC draw the judges from a pool of hundreds judges from ALL countries regardless if they are taking part at the Olympics, preferably not under anonymity or federation wrangling. A list that is not pubically disclosed until the judges just show up at the competition
 

Alba

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 26, 2014
To me, the biggest problems continue to be conflict of interest and training.

How can the conflict of interest be resolved? it's very difficult. To my knowledge they do a lot of training no?

Countries are eligible to have judges at the Olympic Games based on the qualification of their skaters for the ladies, pairs, men’s and ice dance disciplines, as long as the country has an eligible international judge.

Does this mean there are a number of spots for the judges as well?
 
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