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Thread: Selection procedures for ISU judging panels

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatedreamer View Post
    Agree that this would make it more do-able, but how would it work? You mean each judge would only have to explain his/her top 3-4 choices? Asking b/c unless it's done for everyone, seems like you're almost adding to the impression that the winners are decided ahead of time.
    Well, they'd have to take notes on every skater, but the notes would be in shorthand, probably each judge's individual symbols that no one else could interpret. So then they'd be prepared to turn their notes into words for the few skaters who end up in the top places.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-Skwantch View Post
    I know I'm quoting myself but is this not a good place to start?
    Yes, definitely a good place to start. But again the judges would probably need more memorable shorthand for each bullet than just the numbers.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    For federations that have more than one qualified judge, the federation gets to choose which individual to send. That's why judges are afraid of pressure from their federations and may be willing to compromise their judging standards in response to such pressure -- if they don't judge the way the federation wants, they won't get chosen again in the future.
    That is a little strange because according to some being a judge is not really a privilege but rather an honorable service. What does one lose for not being able to serve as a judge? Free travels?

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    Lots of reading to do. Thanks gkelly. If ISU severe ties of federation with its own judges (ie/ Judge are independent professional with fully paid salary and full autonomy and full disclosure), maybe it can solve the issue.



    Yeah looking at that extensive list, one wonder how they select the top 9 judges for the SOCHI assignment. What are the chances that Ms Alla Shekhovtseva get assigned to judge Adelina in EVERY SINGLE ONE of her events this season including the Olympics? Sorry, but that is just statistically dodgy.
    Re OLympics - Once a federation selects a judge to send to Sochi for their allowed specific discipline, (a draw held months prior) the judge is automatically entered into the pool of judges (13) of which 9 are drawn for each portion of the event 30 minutes prior to the event, so it is not impossible to find oneself on both panels.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by usethis2 View Post
    That is a little strange because according to some being a judge is not really a privilege but rather an honorable service. What does one lose for not being able to serve as a judge? Free travels?
    The opportunity to provide that service -- at the highest levels, in this case.

    Say you put in years of judging at lower levels, watching a lot of bad skating with an occasional highlight, in run-down local rinks, sometimes shivering in hockey boxes when there is no judges' stand, often for hours on end in the cold with few breaks, sometimes with unappealing food served in hockey dressing rooms, etc. etc.

    It's not glamorous, but judges do it because they want to support the sport, because they enjoy the process of analyzing skating even when it's not well done, because they occasionally get to see a standout talented skater at the local level, because they like to keep in touch with other officials they met through judging or have known since their own skating days.

    Even international judges had to do this in their home countries and often continue to do so -- the sport needs judges to serve all the lower level skaters who may or may not filter up to the higher levels.

    And say you're good at it and continue to train (in many cases at your own expense) to get accredited to judge at higher levels, including internationally.

    Why go through all that if you won't ever be assigned to judge at that level that you trained for over all those years?

  5. #35
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    gkelly, thank you for keeping our attention on the fact that figure skating judging must serve the interests of the sport at all levels. not just the final flight at the Olympics.

  6. #36
    Yuzulia & Ruslena Team Alba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KKonas View Post
    There are several errors in Bev Smith's article. If both the Tech Specialist and Asst. Tech Specialist agree on a call, Lakernik (the tech controller) CANNOT change it. And Alla S. can still judge ice dancing despite being on the IDTC, but she is limited to judge only 3 ice dance events per year. She is qualified to judge singles/pairs and has opted for those disciplines this season.
    About the Tech Controller I knew she was wrong, you are right. The commentator from Eurosport Ita, and one of the best in figure skating, explained that during the games. I had no idea about Alla and what competitions she can or cannot judge, so I just took that info. from Smith's article to be good.
    Thank you for the correct info.

  7. #37
    Yuzulia & Ruslena Team Alba's Avatar
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    Do retired skaters ever do any judging? I think it would be great; after all, who knows more than they do about what they're watching?
    Many of them are. Gusmeroli for example, was in the tech.panel in the ladies event.

    The ISU has a two-person officials’ assessment commission to monitor major competitions. Each overseer independently watches for anomalies in the scores, reviews them and assesses whether the judges were “correct or incorrect based on the standard.”
    Even if both committee members agree there was a discrepancy, they don't know which judge is being assessed and could be penalized, but it would be interested to know the report of this commission about ladies event. Does anyone knows? Is it made public?


    Anyway, here is what Karen Butcher said about some aspect of the judging, and I tend to agree with her:

    Judging has both objective and subjective marks. There are the technical points for common jumps like a double axel.

    "Every skater can do a double axel, so they would get a mark for that, but then there's marks for the way they execute it, which can be more subjective."
    http://www.ottawacommunitynews.com/n...ting-in-sochi/

    Note that here she's referring to a tech.element. Can you imagine about components?

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alba View Post
    Many of them are. Gusmeroli for example, was in the tech.panel in the ladies event.

    The ISU has a two-person officials’ assessment commission to monitor major competitions. Each overseer independently watches for anomalies in the scores, reviews them and assesses whether the judges were “correct or incorrect based on the standard.”
    Even if both committee members agree there was a discrepancy, they don't know which judge is being assessed and could be penalized, but it would be interested to know the report of this commission about ladies event. Does anyone knows? Is it made public?


    Anyway, here is what Karen Butcher said about some aspect of the judging, and I tend to agree with her:

    Judging has both objective and subjective marks. There are the technical points for common jumps like a double axel.

    "Every skater can do a double axel, so they would get a mark for that, but then there's marks for the way they execute it, which can be more subjective."
    http://www.ottawacommunitynews.com/n...ting-in-sochi/

    Note that here she's referring to a tech.element. Can you imagine about components?
    To me, the biggest problems continue to be conflict of interest and training. Sochi seems to be a big indicator how partisan officiating can be and how these biases can greatly impact the sport.

    I don't think anyone can honestly say that Adelina Sotnikova did not skate two overall fine programs. She did. Are there flaws in her skill set and interpretation of her programs? Yes. But that does not mean that she was not a worthy candidate for the podium. Depending on circumstances, she could have rightfully won the gold. The thing is that not enough of those circumstances actually occurred.

    By being able to elevate her PCS and GOEs in the TES (and under-penalizing her for her fallout on her 3-2-2), after a tech panel had inflated her turn/footwork sequences and dismissed two substantial errors in her first jumping pass, Adelina easily gained an unfair, double digit point total advantage that should have left her with bronze (this is not even accounting for her huge component scores in her SP).

    From what I understand, Yuna fairly deserved her Level 3 Footwork/Turn sequence placement due to an error she made in her SP. The thing is she made no such mistake in her FS and was unfairly penalized with Level 3. Additionally, her GOE's in comparison to Adelina's were unfairly suppressed. Before people say that the two judges under scrutiny could not affect the panel enough to make a difference, just note that in her Free Skate, out of Adelina's 33 "3" GOEs she received, a whopping 18 of them came from just two judges! That means out of a possible 24 GOE marks (12 per judge), these judges award Adelina only 6 GOEs below "3"! (and of those, only 2 below a GOE "2"). Were the other judges watching a different skater?

    Yes, I know this is skating" and these kind of things happen, but when they happen on a big stage like the Olympics, all eyes are upon the sport. Some people here keep saying that the "eye test" is "6.0 thinking", but in this case, it appears to be borne out by the facts. If this incident was not a matter of corruption, but of by shear bias, it is important that skating identify who these judges are and either reeducate them or get rid of them.

    By limiting conflict of interests and obvious bias, fostering education and eliminating anonymous judging. I think skating has a chance to recapture its popularity. If we keep sliding this slippery slope of being equated with staged professional wrestling, the sport will continued to be seen as a joke to the general populace of the world.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by KKonas View Post
    Re OLympics - Once a federation selects a judge to send to Sochi for their allowed specific discipline, (a draw held months prior) the judge is automatically entered into the pool of judges (13) of which 9 are drawn for each portion of the event 30 minutes prior to the event, so it is not impossible to find oneself on both panels.
    Yes I am aware of that, but is it normal to have the same US judge judge at every single one of Gracie's event including the Olympics? One that see her PCS rise at unprecedented rate? I'd raise my eye brows too due to these statistical anomalies.

    While I can perhaps understand these judging selection rules made sense 50 years ago when there are less nationalities competing, but I really think by today's standard, it is hopelessly outdated. This not only disadvantages any minor federations who doesn't have their own judges in the selection, it also disadvantage any run away leader, since it is natural for all federations to pressure their own 'assigned' judges to repress main contenders scores in the interest of 'spread the wealth'.

    I much prefer if judges became an independent professional enterprise separate from their own Federations. IOC draw the judges from a pool of hundreds judges from ALL countries regardless if they are taking part at the Olympics, preferably not under anonymity or federation wrangling. A list that is not pubically disclosed until the judges just show up at the competition

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by capcomeback View Post
    To me, the biggest problems continue to be conflict of interest and training.
    How can the conflict of interest be resolved? it's very difficult. To my knowledge they do a lot of training no?

    Countries are eligible to have judges at the Olympic Games based on the qualification of their skaters for the ladies, pairs, men’s and ice dance disciplines, as long as the country has an eligible international judge.

    Does this mean there are a number of spots for the judges as well?

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    Yes I am aware of that, but is it normal to have the same US judge judge at every single one of Gracie's event including the Olympics? One that see her PCS rise at unprecedented rate? I'd raise my eye brows too due to these statistical anomalies.

    While I can perhaps understand these judging selection rules made sense 50 years ago when there are less nationalities competing, but I really think by today's standard, it is hopelessly outdated. This not only disadvantages any minor federations who doesn't have their own judges in the selection, it also disadvantage any run away leader, since it is natural for all federations to pressure their own 'assigned' judge to repress their chances in the leader the interest of 'spread the wealth'.

    I much prefer if judges became an independent professional enterprise separate from their own Federations. IOC draw the judges from a pool of hundreds judges from ALL countries regardless if they are taking part at the Olympics, preferably not under anonymity or federation wrangling.
    That is a good point. I think Gracie is improving, but we don't need to be hit over the head with it with inflating her PCS (if this is really going on). it's one thing to see steady growth, but like Adelina, Gracie shouldn't be getting marks she does not deserve. If this is regarding the judging pool and judges are being unfairly assigned, then this should be looked into!

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    Quote Originally Posted by capcomeback View Post
    Before people say that the two judges under scrutiny could not affect the panel enough to make a difference, just note that in her Free Skate, out of Adelina's 33 "3" GOEs she received, a whopping 18 of them came from just two judges!
    This is true. However, most of the judges who gave her +3 gave her many. From different judges, she got 10, 8, 6, 5, 3, and 1. So four different judges gave her 5 or more +3. Many of her +3 came from spins, which is typically what the good spinners earn.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alba View Post
    According to Beverly Smith: Olga Baranova is by all accounts, quite good at her job.

    Alla can't judge dance anymore. Alexander Gorshkov stepped down from his long-time role as chairman of the ISU’s ice dance technical committee and became president of the russian federation. There was the vacancy on the ISU dance tech. com. so she decided to run for it and got the seat.
    It meant she could no longer judge ice dancing but she can judge the other disciplines.

    http://bevsmithwrites.wordpress.com/...s-controversy/
    Oh, but she can REFEREE Ice Dance, or serve as the Ice Dance TECHNICAL CONTROLLER, and she does both!

    In addition to her gigs as a judge on the Ladies panels at CoC, TEB, Euros, Olympic team and Olympic Singles events (all the events where Adelina skated) Shekhovstseva Refereed Ice Dance at CoR and was the Ice Dance Technical Controller at 4CC.

    She wasn't at JW, where Russia had a judge only for Pairs, but I wouldn't be shocked to see her at Worlds in some capacity.

    ETA: I could see why she wouldn't be bothered judging ice dance, as Russia didn't have a possible winning horse in the race this year.
    That might change though, now that D/W and V/M have left the building.....

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alba View Post
    How can the conflict of interest be resolved? it's very difficult. To my knowledge they do a lot of training no?

    Countries are eligible to have judges at the Olympic Games based on the qualification of their skaters for the ladies, pairs, men’s and ice dance disciplines, as long as the country has an eligible international judge.

    Does this mean there are a number of spots for the judges as well?
    It's nearly impossible to get rid of every conflict of interest, but you can put a dent in it by stating that no judge may officiate at any senior international event if they are, or have been within the previous two years, an officer or administrator of a national or regional skating body. This would include the spouses of such individuals. Yes, this would ween the number of eligible judges considerably, but there less than a dozen such events a year. It should be doable with the number of judges available.


    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    Oh, but she can REFEREE Ice Dance, or serve as the Ice Dance TECHNICAL CONTROLLER, and she does both!

    In addition to her gigs as a judge on the Ladies panels at CoC, TEB, Euros, Olympic team and Olympic Singles events (all the events where Adelina skated) Shekhovstseva Refereed Ice Dance at CoR and was the Ice Dance Technical Controller at 4CC.

    She wasn't at JW, where Russia had a judge only for Pairs, but I wouldn't be shocked to see her at Worlds in some capacity.

    ETA: I could see why she wouldn't be bothered judging ice dance, as Russia didn't have a possible winning horse in the race this year.
    That might change though, now that D/W and V/M have left the building.....
    Seems like Alla is a busy lady at premium events, considering the number of eligible judges. To me, it seems that there would have to be better qualified singles judges in Russia (as she is mostly known for her work in ice dance officiating). How was she selected to be part of the pool? Oh yeah... her husband.

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    There are 9 other ISU-qualified judges who could have been selected for the Ladies panels on which Mme Piseev served. My guess is the Russian federation didn't trust the other 9 judges to score Sotnikova correctly.....And that only serves to underscore the ruminations of Vassily Solovyov in another thread on this forum, where he comments on the buildup of Sot's PCS scores throughout the season culminating in a huge boost at Sochi. One also has to wonder how much influence Mme Piseev's presence on so many panels wields on other judges...

    Incidentally, note that the infamous Yuri BALKOV not only turned up on the Olympic ladies panel, but he was also on the JGPF Ice Dance panel and on the Junior Worlds Ice Dance panel this past week. He gets around quite a bit, too.

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