59th Eurovision Song Contest | Page 4 | Golden Skate

59th Eurovision Song Contest

Mafke

Medalist
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
There's already been a trans Eurovision winner (Dana International in 1998) so Conchita is simply continuing a great tradition.
Fabulous performance, good song. I approve of this win :)

This is what I dislike about the current 'trans' terminology.

AFAICT there's no indication that this performer thinks of himself as a woman.

It seems that he's a performing transvestite (and identifies as a gay male) and Conchita Wurst is a stage persona like Dame Edna or Vera Serduchka (from Eurovision 2007).

Dana Internation is a transexual.

I tend to think that words should illuminate meaning and 'trans' seems to obscure more than it reveals.
 

Pamigena

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2014
As for the winner, Conchita has an incredible voice and the stage effects were beautiful but I can't help wishing the song was a little better than that? It seemed like a variation of Adele's Skyfall. Just my opinion of course.
I think the song is very GoldenEye (in any case very Bond-ish :biggrin: I don't mind that)

Haven’t seen any of the music videos, so I don’t know what Italy’s was like. But I agree, I hated the outfit too. Didn’t actually notice the pretty legs and the upskirt shots. Maybe I need to go back and watch again…
well, the music video is slightly weird (which is not a bad thing in my world) and the outfits there are even worse than the one she wore yesterday (if you can or want to imagine something like that) but at least you could hear that she has a pretty good song

But, I take back everything I said about the voting not being political. Russia was FAR better than only 89 points. Those two wee Russian girls did not deserve to go through what they did last night. Especially since they were one of the best acts in the competition. That booing every time Russia was mentioned was disgraceful.
I actually wasn't all that impressed by the Russian girls or their song - but I agree, the booing was totally uncalled for :rolleye: seriously, people, show some dignity. At the very least they could have kept quite - which would still have been kinda rude but at least not openly offensive. You don't exactly prove your superiority by picking on little girls.


So, unfortunately, I bet there will be more country music next year on the back of that result…
Maybe we'll see a lot more cross-dressing country singers at the ESC from now on :laugh:


As a rule, I don’t like Dance music, and I didn’t like Germany’s entry last year. But, I do actually like Natalie Horler as a singer. It may normally be hidden behind the dance music that Cascada are known for, but she does have a VERY strong voice.
Maybe she does but her performance that very night was abysmal.
Bad song + bad-voice-day + that horrible outfit. Everything hurt.

Though I will admit that last year I was already preoccupied with anger before she even came on stage because people here, including me, were not exactly happy that Cascada won the national final above another band (who clearly won the audience's vote but the 'expert' jury kicked them so far down the list that Cascada won overall. Which totally sucked. I'm not saying that the other band would have placed all that much higher at the ESC but at least they would have added a bit more fun instead of yet another badly sung mainstream dance-whatever-song)
 

Pamigena

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2014
This is what I dislike about the current 'trans' terminology.

AFAICT there's no indication that this performer thinks of himself as a woman.

It seems that he's a performing transvestite (and identifies as a gay male) and Conchita Wurst is a stage persona like Dame Edna or Vera Serduchka (from Eurovision 2007).

Dana Internation is a transexual.

I tend to think that words should illuminate meaning and 'trans' seems to obscure more than it reveals.
I don't think that Buttercup meant to say that Conchita is a transexual ;) (but please correct me if I'm wrong, buttercup). I think it was more of a "Europe already chose a transsexual as the winner 15 years ago so it's not really that much of shock that now a drag persona would win, it's just what can happen at the ESC because despite all the controversy and prejudice, many people are and have been more open-minded than one might think"
 

Mafke

Medalist
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
I don't think that Buttercup meant to say that Conchita is a transexual ;) (but please correct me if I'm wrong, buttercup). I think it was more of a "Europe already chose a transsexual as the winner 15 years ago so it's not really that much of shock that now a drag persona would win, it's just what can happen at the ESC because despite all the controversy and prejudice, many people are and have been more open-minded than one might think"

Besides Vera Serduchka (2007 Ukraine) there was also a drag group in 2002

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pr9Pr3GRBA4


And the winner that year did her fair share of gender bending too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAb6ozO0tk0
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
I don't think that Buttercup meant to say that Conchita is a transexual ;) (but please correct me if I'm wrong, buttercup). I think it was more of a "Europe already chose a transsexual as the winner 15 years ago so it's not really that much of shock that now a drag persona would win, it's just what can happen at the ESC because despite all the controversy and prejudice, many people are and have been more open-minded than one might think"
You are correct and mafke is not. Did I state that Conchita is trans? No, I didn't, because Conchita is not a trans woman. What my comment refers to is that Eurovision has a great track record of embracing diverse performers, including LGBT ones, and Conchita's well-deserved win extends this tradition.

:yay:
 

[email protected]

Medalist
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 26, 2014
There was no need for all the booing in the arena though, Eurovision is supposed to be a singing contest and not politics. Those teenage girls have no fault.

Right, it was a terrible crowd. Never again should Eurovision contests be in Denmark.:mad:
 

Mafke

Medalist
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
You are correct and mafke is not. Did I state that Conchita is trans? No, I didn't, because Conchita is not a trans woman. What my comment refers to is that Eurovision has a great track record of embracing diverse performers, including LGBT ones, and Conchita's well-deserved win extends this tradition.
:yay:

Apologies, the wording seemed a little ambiguous (and I've seen several references to CW as 'trans' or 'transgender' so I was in annoyed mode.
 

WeakAnkles

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 1, 2011
I also think its a joke. How brainwashed a lot of the West is to have hate for Russia is really disturbing.

I don't completely understand the voting but it looks like some countries purposely screwed Russia with the jury voting. http://www.eurovision.tv/page/results

Latvia for example, Russia was #1 in the televoting there. But the jury put them #20. Estonia same thing. #24 in jury voting, #2 in televoting.

Try going on a Russian board and read the anti-West comments there. All this "poor, innocent, picked on Russia" is more than a little bit tiresome--not to say totally hypocritical.

And "performing transvestite" is just a stupid term. A transvestite derives sexual pleasure from wearing the clothes of the opposite gender. Our lovely contestant from Austria is a drag performer. Whether he is a transvestite or not is not for anyone except him to say.

Oh and by the way, the majority of transvestites...are heterosexuals.

Imagine that.
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Right, it was a terrible crowd. Never again should Eurovision contests be in Denmark.:mad:
:rofl: Given the way the crowds behaved in Sochi, would you also argue that no future sports events should be held in Russia?

Apologies, the wording seemed a little ambiguous (and I've seen several references to CW as 'trans' or 'transgender' so I was in annoyed mode.
It's okay - I just didn't want to have my comment be a teachable moment based on something that was never actually said ;)
 

TMC

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 27, 2014
Try going on a Russian board and read the anti-West comments there. All this "poor, innocent, picked on Russia" is more than a little bit tiresome--not to say totally hypocritical.

And "performing transvestite" is just a stupid term. A transvestite derives sexual pleasure from wearing the clothes of the opposite gender. Our lovely contestant from Austria is a drag performer. Whether he is a transvestite or not is not for anyone except him to say.

Oh and by the way, the majority of transvestites...are heterosexuals.

Imagine that.

:clap:
 

[email protected]

Medalist
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 26, 2014
:rofl: Given the way the crowds behaved in Sochi, would you also argue that no future sports events should be held in Russia?

;)

The crowds in Sochi were overzealous in supporting Russian athletes in a "hockey manner". They never booed other athletes. The latter to my mind is much bigger "crime". However, so many "never ever" about ALL future FS events in Sochi and nothing about Denmark. A little bit of justice - nothing else.
 

[email protected]

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Joined
Mar 26, 2014
Try going on a Russian board and read the anti-West comments there. All this "poor, innocent, picked on Russia" is more than a little bit tiresome--not to say totally hypocritical.

And "performing transvestite" is just a stupid term. A transvestite derives sexual pleasure from wearing the clothes of the opposite gender. Our lovely contestant from Austria is a drag performer. Whether he is a transvestite or not is not for anyone except him to say.

Oh and by the way, the majority of transvestites...are heterosexuals.

Imagine that.

So what? Citing some of the opinions from Russian boards proves nothing. Just read some of UK people opinions on the BBC board. http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-27358560 Just some because a quarter of them was deleted because of the lack of PC. At the same time, it is true that tolerance at all cost is not in the upbringing in Russia. Why would one judge the whole nation for that? Is there universal truth? Or is it just promoted tolerance in the West vs. promoted conservative/orthodox values in Russia? But the people still decide for themselves. And the result of Austria getting 3rd place and Ukraine getting 4th place in the Russian popular vote shows what Russia actually thinks.

And I would not start on hypocrisy. Just rewatched some of the famous/notorious hockey matches from the past with Western judges.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Try going on a Russian board and read the anti-West comments there. All this "poor, innocent, picked on Russia" is more than a little bit tiresome--not to say totally hypocritical.

And "performing transvestite" is just a stupid term. A transvestite derives sexual pleasure from wearing the clothes of the opposite gender. Our lovely contestant from Austria is a drag performer. Whether he is a transvestite or not is not for anyone except him to say.

Oh and by the way, the majority of transvestites...are heterosexuals.

Imagine that.

Thank you!

And congrats to Conchita... I'd never heard of her before and normally I think Eurovision is just a kitschy popularity contest, but she turned out a helluva performance and has a wonderful voice! :clap:
 

WeakAnkles

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 1, 2011
So what? Citing some of the opinions from Russian boards proves nothing. Just read some of UK people opinions on the BBC board. http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-27358560 Just some because a quarter of them was deleted because of the lack of PC. At the same time, it is true that tolerance at all cost is not in the upbringing in Russia. Why would one judge the whole nation for that? Is there universal truth? Or is it just promoted tolerance in the West vs. promoted conservative/orthodox values in Russia? But the people still decide for themselves. And the result of Austria getting 3rd place and Ukraine getting 4th place in the Russian popular vote shows what Russia actually thinks.

And I would not start on hypocrisy. Just rewatched some of the famous/notorious hockey matches from the past with Western judges.


Again the hypocrisy is beyond belief. A pro-Russian poster judges an entire hemisphere--the "brainwashed West"--but that rates nary a peep from you. And I've seen the "promoted conservative/orthodox" 'values' at play in Russia. Take the case of Ivan Okhlobystin. Former Orthodox priest, now an actor on the Russian version of Scrubs. Went on television during the outcry over the LGBT propaganda law and called for homosexuals to be burned alive in ovens. And what "values" were the in-studio television audience promoting when they applauded his remarks? What "values" were the rest of Russia promoting when there was nary a peep from its press or the majority of its people about this? Oh but heaven forbid anyone actually criticize such "values"--then we're all Russia bashing.

It is to laugh.
 

[email protected]

Medalist
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 26, 2014
Again the hypocrisy is beyond belief. A pro-Russian poster judges an entire hemisphere--the "brainwashed West"--but that rates nary a peep from you. And I've seen the "promoted conservative/orthodox" 'values' at play in Russia. Take the case of Ivan Okhlobystin. Former Orthodox priest, now an actor on the Russian version of Scrubs. Went on television during the outcry over the LGBT propaganda law and called for homosexuals to be burned alive in ovens. And what "values" were the in-studio television audience promoting when they applauded his remarks? What "values" were the rest of Russia promoting when there was nary a peep from its press or the majority of its people about this? Oh but heaven forbid anyone actually criticize such "values"--then we're all Russia bashing.

It is to laugh.

Sounds like you are my former countrymate or a citizen of one of the FSU countries: you know a lot about what's going on but with a very strong opinion flavor. Ivan Okhlobystin was technically a priest just for a while. But in fact it was a show act all the time. But an orthodox show act in the contrast to a tolerance show act which Wurst is. As for what was exactly in the studio, I cannot say - it was about 3 a.m. - I am not crazy about Eurovision and politics in general to stay that late for this. The composition of the audience in the studio was very mixed though - that I know. And opinions varied Kirkorov - producer of our twins supported Wurst same as some others. For one thing, it takes just a little bit of unspotted knowledge of what's going on to not base the judgement on the announcements of freaks like Zhirinovskij and Okhlobystin. I am much more concerned with would be president Yulia Timoshenko asking to "kill them all" in the East. Once again look at the popular vote: this is Russia not Okhlobystin who needs something outrageous to survive. Again if you already "know" that Russia is hypocritical and is to laugh this dialogue is fruitless.
 

WeakAnkles

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 1, 2011
Sounds like you are my former countrymate or a citizen of one of the FSU countries: you know a lot about what's going on but with a very strong opinion flavor. Ivan Okhlobystin was technically a priest just for a while. But in fact it was a show act all the time. But an orthodox show act in the contrast to a tolerance show act which Wurst is. As for what was exactly in the studio, I cannot say - it was about 3 a.m. - I am not crazy about Eurovision and politics in general to stay that late for this. The composition of the audience in the studio was very mixed though - that I know. And opinions varied Kirkorov - producer of our twins supported Wurst same as some others. For one thing, it takes just a little bit of unspotted knowledge of what's going on to not base the judgement on the announcements of freaks like Zhirinovskij and Okhlobystin. I am much more concerned with would be president Yulia Timoshenko asking to "kill them all" in the East. Once again look at the popular vote: this is Russia not Okhlobystin who needs something outrageous to survive. Again if you already "know" that Russia is hypocritical and is to laugh this dialogue is fruitless.

We certainly have our own share of pandering crackpots like Okhlobystin in the USA. I'm far less concerned about Okhlobystin than I am over a television network that would allow such remarks to air without comment, to a studio audience that would applaud the idea of burning anyone alive, and to a more general public, politicians and media who heard such comments and, for the most part, said or did nothing about them. Compare that to brouhaha raised by Donald Sterling's racist remarks in the USA. You can shrug it off as PC, but I for one think a good deal of politics could use major corrections. And the personal is often VERY political.

As far as hypocrisy, I am speaking about what I have seen on this board. You have apparently NO problem with someone condemning the entire Western hemisphere as "brainwashed." Nor, given the deafening silence to the remark, does any Russian member of this board. But the protest come loud and fast when Russia, or events that take place in Russia, or have Russian participants are criticized at all. Apparently gross generalizations are only intolerable when Russia is the target of them. Yes, there is a word for that in English and the word is "hypocritical."

As far as the Eurovision Song Contest, it has a long history of awarding its top prize to novelty acts and songs. And one would be hard-pressed to find an act more "novel" than a bearded drag performer. Oh but no, it's all really a conspiracy for the West to exhibit more anti-Russian bias.

Gimme a break.
 

[email protected]

Medalist
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Mar 26, 2014
Likewise, have you ever tried to listen to the other standpoint? Why would you expect someone from Russia to be sympathetic to the ongoing accusation spree? I am personally totally against generalizations based on individual remarks. They are fundamentally wrong. It takes just reading BBC board to fully understand that "the West" is not united in its attitude towards Wurst. And more or less united in denunciation of the Russian twins booing in Kopenhagen. Then I am not with the person saying that the whole Western hemisphere is brainwashed. But this hemisphere has enough advocates already, including you - why would I bother?

As for Eurovision, I never vote. But if I did this time, I would do it for the Netherlands with Austria coming second - the act was good. And she/he might be even successful with the concerts for a while - as novelty stays. As for the long-term potential and the success with CD sales - I am not sure: looked like a one-time show to me. Finally, one can argue that it is due to the blind patriotism. But the fact is - it is the Russian twins song that occupies my head for the last several days although I am not that big fan of pop music in the first place.
 

WeakAnkles

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 1, 2011
Likewise, have you ever tried to listen to the other standpoint? Why would you expect someone from Russia to be sympathetic to the ongoing accusation spree? I am personally totally against generalizations based on individual remarks. They are fundamentally wrong. It takes just reading BBC board to fully understand that "the West" is not united in its attitude towards Wurst. And more or less united in denunciation of the Russian twins booing in Kopenhagen. Then I am not with the person saying that the whole Western hemisphere is brainwashed. But this hemisphere has enough advocates already, including you - why would I bother?

As for Eurovision, I never vote. But if I did this time, I would do it for the Netherlands with Austria coming second - the act was good. And she/he might be even successful with the concerts for a while - as novelty stays. As for the long-term potential and the success with CD sales - I am not sure: looked like a one-time show to me. Finally, one can argue that it is due to the blind patriotism. But the fact is - it is the Russian twins song that occupies my head for the last several days although I am not that big fan of pop music in the first place.

Similarly, how can you expect anyone from this board who criticizes, for example, the exceedingly questionable scoring at Cup of Russia and is then hit with a barrage of comments from Russian and pro-Russian board members that they "hate Russia" to be sympathetic? It's a two-way street. Frankly, people here on the whole don't hate Russia or have an "anti-Russian bias." They hate CRAPPY JUDGING. It wouldn't matter if it was Cup of Antarctica and Antarctican skaters started seeing their scores rise in previously unprecedented ways. But if every time someone tried to point this out and say, hey something is not right here, and got hit with Antarctican board members saying "oh you just hate Antarctica" and "well there's plenty of judging bias and shenanigans going on at the Asian/European/North American Cups" while they criticize everyone else, then I'd call them hypocrites too.

As far as the BBC board, I would think twice before saying ANY board is going to be representative of the entire general population. Frankly, most people don't take the time or simply can't be bothered to post on boards.

As a Russian figure skating fan (I'll get back to Eurovision in a moment), you have two problems. First, and correct me if I'm wrong, but almost every single major skating scoring controversy for the last 50 years has either involved a Russian skater, a Russian judge or a competition held in Russia. It's only human nature to be skeptical when ANOTHER scoring controversry arises involving, yet again, either a Russian skater, judge or competition. And second, the situation in Ukraine isn't helping matters. People weren't booing the Russian twins per se. They were expressing their feelings about what is going on in Ukraine. Events don't happen in a bubble. For heaven's sake, I'm a gay American. Don't you think I've heard more than my share of anti-American homophobic remarks? But I try not to counter them with knee-jerk comments like "Oh you just hate America" and "You're just a homophobe" or assume that everyone is against me, my country, and my sexual orientation. What good would it be to be that thin-skinned? Nor do I insist that every American politician and LGBT rights group shouldn't be criticized. Frankly, a good many American politicians are dangerous idiots and I simply don't agree with a good deal of LGBT rhetoric.

Well bully for you for loving the Russian twins' song. But you can't expect that your personal taste is going to be shared by everyone--or anyone--else. That's why I often post the phrase De gustibus non est disputandum on here. Because how can you argue about taste? But when someone doesn't agree with my taste I don't assume it's some kind of anti-American, anti-gay, anti-anything conspiracy either. Geez Louise! I just figure they have Bad Taste. ;)
 

[email protected]

Medalist
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Mar 26, 2014
As a Russian figure skating fan (I'll get back to Eurovision in a moment), you have two problems. First, and correct me if I'm wrong, but almost every single major skating scoring controversy for the last 50 years has either involved a Russian skater, a Russian judge or a competition held in Russia. It's only human nature to be skeptical when ANOTHER scoring controversry arises involving, yet again, either a Russian skater, judge or competition. And second, the situation in Ukraine isn't helping matters. People weren't booing the Russian twins per se. They were expressing their feelings about what is going on in Ukraine.

I cannot relate to this. There were many judging controversies in FS during the last 50 years. Most of the ones before the 90s that included the Russians could be attributed to the Cold War that was still on. As for the recent ones, I could recollect Canadian dance team placed after Americans in FS in Sochi and Kostner's score in Japan. Then, I believe, your generalization (and it was smart to use "almost") is not correct. As for Ukraine, unfortunately, it is a new round of the Cold War, and propaganda is doing its best to polarize the general public on the both sides. But the main victims of the war between Obama's and Putin's egos are every day Ukrainians. Once again, the popular vote in Russia shows the overall sympathy to Ukraine. But it is the same in Ukraine: the televote placed Russia on the 3rd place. I am not talking politics - what is going on there is just lamentable. Once again, do not judge based on CNN (same as Russia 1). Talk to the people if you can. I can: my parents-in-law are the Russians living in Western Ukraine.
 

WeakAnkles

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 1, 2011
I cannot relate to this. There were many judging controversies in FS during the last 50 years. Most of the ones before the 90s that included the Russians could be attributed to the Cold War that was still on. As for the recent ones, I could recollect Canadian dance team placed after Americans in FS in Sochi and Kostner's score in Japan. Then, I believe, your generalization (and it was smart to use "almost") is not correct. As for Ukraine, unfortunately, it is a new round of the Cold War, and propaganda is doing its best to polarize the general public on the both sides. But the main victims of the war between Obama's and Putin's egos are every day Ukrainians. Once again, the popular vote in Russia shows the overall sympathy to Ukraine. But it is the same in Ukraine: the televote placed Russia on the 3rd place. I am not talking politics - what is going on there is just lamentable. Once again, do not judge based on CNN (same as Russia 1). Talk to the people if you can. I can: my parents-in-law are the Russians living in Western Ukraine.

And yet you can't seem to "recollect" a recent scoring controversy involving a single Russian skater, only those that involve skaters from the West. This is EXACTLY what I mean--and why it is difficult for me (to say the least!) to have much sympathy for Russian posters on this board who feel so so eternally persecuted. Oh and for the record, the Voir/Marlie "conspiracy" was alleged--without any proof whatsoever--by an anonymous Russian coach. I guess you failed to "recollect" that as well.

As far as Ukraine, please don't even go there with Obama and the US, who is REacting to events, not creating them. The situation is lamentable, and the world is lamenting. Unfortunately sometimes it takes the form of booing singers who have nothing to do with the crisis there.
 
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