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Thread: 59th Eurovision Song Contest

  1. #61
    Gadfly and Bon Vivant Mafke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    There's already been a trans Eurovision winner (Dana International in 1998) so Conchita is simply continuing a great tradition.
    Fabulous performance, good song. I approve of this win
    This is what I dislike about the current 'trans' terminology.

    AFAICT there's no indication that this performer thinks of himself as a woman.

    It seems that he's a performing transvestite (and identifies as a gay male) and Conchita Wurst is a stage persona like Dame Edna or Vera Serduchka (from Eurovision 2007).

    Dana Internation is a transexual.

    I tend to think that words should illuminate meaning and 'trans' seems to obscure more than it reveals.

  2. #62
    fairy dust distributor ~Pamina~'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ioanap View Post
    As for the winner, Conchita has an incredible voice and the stage effects were beautiful but I can't help wishing the song was a little better than that? It seemed like a variation of Adele's Skyfall. Just my opinion of course.
    I think the song is very GoldenEye (in any case very Bond-ish I don't mind that)

    Quote Originally Posted by CaroLiza_fan View Post
    Haven’t seen any of the music videos, so I don’t know what Italy’s was like. But I agree, I hated the outfit too. Didn’t actually notice the pretty legs and the upskirt shots. Maybe I need to go back and watch again…
    well, the music video is slightly weird (which is not a bad thing in my world) and the outfits there are even worse than the one she wore yesterday (if you can or want to imagine something like that) but at least you could hear that she has a pretty good song

    Quote Originally Posted by CaroLiza_fan View Post
    But, I take back everything I said about the voting not being political. Russia was FAR better than only 89 points. Those two wee Russian girls did not deserve to go through what they did last night. Especially since they were one of the best acts in the competition. That booing every time Russia was mentioned was disgraceful.
    I actually wasn't all that impressed by the Russian girls or their song - but I agree, the booing was totally uncalled for seriously, people, show some dignity. At the very least they could have kept quite - which would still have been kinda rude but at least not openly offensive. You don't exactly prove your superiority by picking on little girls.


    Quote Originally Posted by CaroLiza_fan View Post
    So, unfortunately, I bet there will be more country music next year on the back of that result…
    Maybe we'll see a lot more cross-dressing country singers at the ESC from now on


    Quote Originally Posted by CaroLiza_fan View Post
    As a rule, I don’t like Dance music, and I didn’t like Germany’s entry last year. But, I do actually like Natalie Horler as a singer. It may normally be hidden behind the dance music that Cascada are known for, but she does have a VERY strong voice.
    Maybe she does but her performance that very night was abysmal.
    Bad song + bad-voice-day + that horrible outfit. Everything hurt.

    Though I will admit that last year I was already preoccupied with anger before she even came on stage because people here, including me, were not exactly happy that Cascada won the national final above another band (who clearly won the audience's vote but the 'expert' jury kicked them so far down the list that Cascada won overall. Which totally sucked. I'm not saying that the other band would have placed all that much higher at the ESC but at least they would have added a bit more fun instead of yet another badly sung mainstream dance-whatever-song)

  3. #63
    fairy dust distributor ~Pamina~'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mafke View Post
    This is what I dislike about the current 'trans' terminology.

    AFAICT there's no indication that this performer thinks of himself as a woman.

    It seems that he's a performing transvestite (and identifies as a gay male) and Conchita Wurst is a stage persona like Dame Edna or Vera Serduchka (from Eurovision 2007).

    Dana Internation is a transexual.

    I tend to think that words should illuminate meaning and 'trans' seems to obscure more than it reveals.
    I don't think that Buttercup meant to say that Conchita is a transexual (but please correct me if I'm wrong, buttercup). I think it was more of a "Europe already chose a transsexual as the winner 15 years ago so it's not really that much of shock that now a drag persona would win, it's just what can happen at the ESC because despite all the controversy and prejudice, many people are and have been more open-minded than one might think"

  4. #64
    Gadfly and Bon Vivant Mafke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ~Pamina~ View Post
    I don't think that Buttercup meant to say that Conchita is a transexual (but please correct me if I'm wrong, buttercup). I think it was more of a "Europe already chose a transsexual as the winner 15 years ago so it's not really that much of shock that now a drag persona would win, it's just what can happen at the ESC because despite all the controversy and prejudice, many people are and have been more open-minded than one might think"
    Besides Vera Serduchka (2007 Ukraine) there was also a drag group in 2002

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pr9Pr3GRBA4


    And the winner that year did her fair share of gender bending too.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAb6ozO0tk0

  5. #65
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ~Pamina~ View Post
    I don't think that Buttercup meant to say that Conchita is a transexual (but please correct me if I'm wrong, buttercup). I think it was more of a "Europe already chose a transsexual as the winner 15 years ago so it's not really that much of shock that now a drag persona would win, it's just what can happen at the ESC because despite all the controversy and prejudice, many people are and have been more open-minded than one might think"
    You are correct and mafke is not. Did I state that Conchita is trans? No, I didn't, because Conchita is not a trans woman. What my comment refers to is that Eurovision has a great track record of embracing diverse performers, including LGBT ones, and Conchita's well-deserved win extends this tradition.


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    Quote Originally Posted by ioanap View Post
    There was no need for all the booing in the arena though, Eurovision is supposed to be a singing contest and not politics. Those teenage girls have no fault.
    Right, it was a terrible crowd. Never again should Eurovision contests be in Denmark.

  7. #67
    Gadfly and Bon Vivant Mafke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    You are correct and mafke is not. Did I state that Conchita is trans? No, I didn't, because Conchita is not a trans woman. What my comment refers to is that Eurovision has a great track record of embracing diverse performers, including LGBT ones, and Conchita's well-deserved win extends this tradition.
    Apologies, the wording seemed a little ambiguous (and I've seen several references to CW as 'trans' or 'transgender' so I was in annoyed mode.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by YLFan View Post
    I also think its a joke. How brainwashed a lot of the West is to have hate for Russia is really disturbing.

    I don't completely understand the voting but it looks like some countries purposely screwed Russia with the jury voting. http://www.eurovision.tv/page/results

    Latvia for example, Russia was #1 in the televoting there. But the jury put them #20. Estonia same thing. #24 in jury voting, #2 in televoting.
    Try going on a Russian board and read the anti-West comments there. All this "poor, innocent, picked on Russia" is more than a little bit tiresome--not to say totally hypocritical.

    And "performing transvestite" is just a stupid term. A transvestite derives sexual pleasure from wearing the clothes of the opposite gender. Our lovely contestant from Austria is a drag performer. Whether he is a transvestite or not is not for anyone except him to say.

    Oh and by the way, the majority of transvestites...are heterosexuals.

    Imagine that.

  9. #69
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by samkrut@mail.ru View Post
    Right, it was a terrible crowd. Never again should Eurovision contests be in Denmark.
    Given the way the crowds behaved in Sochi, would you also argue that no future sports events should be held in Russia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mafke View Post
    Apologies, the wording seemed a little ambiguous (and I've seen several references to CW as 'trans' or 'transgender' so I was in annoyed mode.
    It's okay - I just didn't want to have my comment be a teachable moment based on something that was never actually said

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeakAnkles View Post
    Try going on a Russian board and read the anti-West comments there. All this "poor, innocent, picked on Russia" is more than a little bit tiresome--not to say totally hypocritical.

    And "performing transvestite" is just a stupid term. A transvestite derives sexual pleasure from wearing the clothes of the opposite gender. Our lovely contestant from Austria is a drag performer. Whether he is a transvestite or not is not for anyone except him to say.

    Oh and by the way, the majority of transvestites...are heterosexuals.

    Imagine that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    Given the way the crowds behaved in Sochi, would you also argue that no future sports events should be held in Russia?

    The crowds in Sochi were overzealous in supporting Russian athletes in a "hockey manner". They never booed other athletes. The latter to my mind is much bigger "crime". However, so many "never ever" about ALL future FS events in Sochi and nothing about Denmark. A little bit of justice - nothing else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WeakAnkles View Post
    Try going on a Russian board and read the anti-West comments there. All this "poor, innocent, picked on Russia" is more than a little bit tiresome--not to say totally hypocritical.

    And "performing transvestite" is just a stupid term. A transvestite derives sexual pleasure from wearing the clothes of the opposite gender. Our lovely contestant from Austria is a drag performer. Whether he is a transvestite or not is not for anyone except him to say.

    Oh and by the way, the majority of transvestites...are heterosexuals.

    Imagine that.
    So what? Citing some of the opinions from Russian boards proves nothing. Just read some of UK people opinions on the BBC board. http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-27358560 Just some because a quarter of them was deleted because of the lack of PC. At the same time, it is true that tolerance at all cost is not in the upbringing in Russia. Why would one judge the whole nation for that? Is there universal truth? Or is it just promoted tolerance in the West vs. promoted conservative/orthodox values in Russia? But the people still decide for themselves. And the result of Austria getting 3rd place and Ukraine getting 4th place in the Russian popular vote shows what Russia actually thinks.

    And I would not start on hypocrisy. Just rewatched some of the famous/notorious hockey matches from the past with Western judges.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeakAnkles View Post
    Try going on a Russian board and read the anti-West comments there. All this "poor, innocent, picked on Russia" is more than a little bit tiresome--not to say totally hypocritical.

    And "performing transvestite" is just a stupid term. A transvestite derives sexual pleasure from wearing the clothes of the opposite gender. Our lovely contestant from Austria is a drag performer. Whether he is a transvestite or not is not for anyone except him to say.

    Oh and by the way, the majority of transvestites...are heterosexuals.

    Imagine that.
    Thank you!

    And congrats to Conchita... I'd never heard of her before and normally I think Eurovision is just a kitschy popularity contest, but she turned out a helluva performance and has a wonderful voice!

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    Quote Originally Posted by samkrut@mail.ru View Post
    So what? Citing some of the opinions from Russian boards proves nothing. Just read some of UK people opinions on the BBC board. http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-27358560 Just some because a quarter of them was deleted because of the lack of PC. At the same time, it is true that tolerance at all cost is not in the upbringing in Russia. Why would one judge the whole nation for that? Is there universal truth? Or is it just promoted tolerance in the West vs. promoted conservative/orthodox values in Russia? But the people still decide for themselves. And the result of Austria getting 3rd place and Ukraine getting 4th place in the Russian popular vote shows what Russia actually thinks.

    And I would not start on hypocrisy. Just rewatched some of the famous/notorious hockey matches from the past with Western judges.

    Again the hypocrisy is beyond belief. A pro-Russian poster judges an entire hemisphere--the "brainwashed West"--but that rates nary a peep from you. And I've seen the "promoted conservative/orthodox" 'values' at play in Russia. Take the case of Ivan Okhlobystin. Former Orthodox priest, now an actor on the Russian version of Scrubs. Went on television during the outcry over the LGBT propaganda law and called for homosexuals to be burned alive in ovens. And what "values" were the in-studio television audience promoting when they applauded his remarks? What "values" were the rest of Russia promoting when there was nary a peep from its press or the majority of its people about this? Oh but heaven forbid anyone actually criticize such "values"--then we're all Russia bashing.

    It is to laugh.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeakAnkles View Post
    Again the hypocrisy is beyond belief. A pro-Russian poster judges an entire hemisphere--the "brainwashed West"--but that rates nary a peep from you. And I've seen the "promoted conservative/orthodox" 'values' at play in Russia. Take the case of Ivan Okhlobystin. Former Orthodox priest, now an actor on the Russian version of Scrubs. Went on television during the outcry over the LGBT propaganda law and called for homosexuals to be burned alive in ovens. And what "values" were the in-studio television audience promoting when they applauded his remarks? What "values" were the rest of Russia promoting when there was nary a peep from its press or the majority of its people about this? Oh but heaven forbid anyone actually criticize such "values"--then we're all Russia bashing.

    It is to laugh.
    Sounds like you are my former countrymate or a citizen of one of the FSU countries: you know a lot about what's going on but with a very strong opinion flavor. Ivan Okhlobystin was technically a priest just for a while. But in fact it was a show act all the time. But an orthodox show act in the contrast to a tolerance show act which Wurst is. As for what was exactly in the studio, I cannot say - it was about 3 a.m. - I am not crazy about Eurovision and politics in general to stay that late for this. The composition of the audience in the studio was very mixed though - that I know. And opinions varied Kirkorov - producer of our twins supported Wurst same as some others. For one thing, it takes just a little bit of unspotted knowledge of what's going on to not base the judgement on the announcements of freaks like Zhirinovskij and Okhlobystin. I am much more concerned with would be president Yulia Timoshenko asking to "kill them all" in the East. Once again look at the popular vote: this is Russia not Okhlobystin who needs something outrageous to survive. Again if you already "know" that Russia is hypocritical and is to laugh this dialogue is fruitless.

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