Yes, it is I. Wielding themNadya: "The gig is up," "clean as a whistle."This is you wielding English puns and idioms, right?
Vassily Solovyov: "You Can't Tell the Truth About Figure Skaters"
- Thread starter Nadya
- Start date
There is actually another very curious piece about Chan comparing him to Prometheus. I'll get to it at some point.
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2004
At least no one's brought up Michelle Kwa..... doh!
He's a TV personality, movie producer, makes most of his money MC'ing corporate parties. "And now, let's welcome a VP of Operations who wants to pass a warm welcome to the sales team meeting and exceeding 3rd quarter targets! Whee!"
I will co-
with you! Sounds like in Russia, the figure skating is just like Ballet rivalries!
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2010
Thanks Nadya, really appreciate your effort for the translation.
I love reading refreshing insights like these from real insiders which we are not privy to behind the usual ISU wall of silence, crappy communication 893402.9848 (helpful to learn German, French before understand its English. Frankly they feel increasingly like some Starship Enterprise Captain's log full of science fiction fantasies since their application are not exactly reflected in the real world at the most critical events) under anonymity, media spins, fierce national and political interests, that discourage honest opinions due to ties with job / contract / skating shows commercial interests etc.
It confirms a few things
1) Home advantage helps.
Should it? By how much? Are the oversights deliberate or accident or something else? This is the OLYMPICS, has every care been taken to ensure the judging is fair and the results can not be disagreed. Are the rules and the objectivity of the rules so poor, that 14 points PCS improvements can be justified by a 9th world championship finisher (no WC/GPF podium to speak of) in just 2 months while it had took veterans some 7 years of consistent delivery and medals to achieve? Why should anyone bother to compete anymore if they are just going to award the medal to the local richest landlord's fav? Beijing is bidding for 2022, why bother compete anymore? Let's just hand over Zijun the OGM now and save everyone the time. I bet the 1.5 billions of Chinese can shout louder around the world than the 10,000 partisan audiences inside the Iceberg Palace.
2) Perception matters.
Commentators and judges exist to serve the interests of general public and the sport. They are SUPPOSE to be the fairest and impartial to outside influences yet many times they are prevented from doing their job properly.
No wonder Russian coaches need to be very political aware and knows how critical it is to exert influence / pressures where ever possible. I wonder how true is this culture in N.America skating or how about in Japan and the rest of Europe.
Thinking back, this is probably Kim's only mistake in her entire Olympic campaign, she was too honest about everything (what she is here to do, her motivations, small mistake in her sp), her team is not media savvy or experienced enough, it left her vulnerable.
One aspect of the sport is how I have always enjoyed are commentaries from different nationalities and see how different they are. My impressions are based on past viewing and transcript of commentaries where available.
French are very passionate about the artistry and its possibilities and potentials in skating. Good for them. I really love Nathalie and Fabian's programs at this Olympics especially Little Prince.
Italians are passionate about their skating, love European themed programs, things that are classical.
Japan broadcast seems always very polite and encouraging. I wonder if some of them feel pressured to react to certain skater's performance due to public opinions.
Euros Sports Brits are fair and knowledgeable especially on the rules and scoring. They usually call it right before the judges and not afraid to challenge the judging which I always appreciate. They can be terrible with pronouncing the names, perhaps that is why they don't work for the BBC! Pity there didn't report on the Olympics this year.
US NBC. Everyone seems to be living in their own Hollywood skating movie. It is very showbiz, but Olympics do fully justify these sort of bigger than life moments. I do think political correctness should not over ride fairness, and sensationalism should not over ride sense. I wish we can hear more of Bezic's insights on the artistry of program and talk more about choreography which the sport desperately need not just skating for points. Scott's grunts, an overly indulged man child who makes tons of money from this sport, say no more.
US fluffs are a highlight. Remember the one with Rachel Flatt walk the dog and attend class vs Mao and Yuna at Vancouver? This year was all about Yulia and Schindler's list. Ryan Seacrest in Korea. Is there one with Gracie and Ashley? Proms + Cover girl shoot etc. Not watched Johnny and Tara's version yet. Unlike Vassily their careers were on a downward spiral until they landed this gig. I have never cared for Johnny's fashion designs, or Tara's gold anyway. The narcissism displayed through out there career is icky, so are their apparent lack of knowledge on COP and rule changes it seems (Hello... Yuna has won many times with 6 triples programs of great quality, Adelina and many others have lost several times despite the 7 triples, and there were many rules/points changes post Vancouver that disadvantage anyone without the loop despite putting out 2x 3lz and the hardest 3/3combo in the competition which more than satisfy difficulty. The new rules also prevent her to bring her 2A3T which is massively costly.) I bet Johnny and Tara's contract is per this event only. It goes to the whole heart of the matter, why would anyone want to rock the boat and put their own career and sport at risk by saying something controversial?
BBC is my personal fav (well worth £150 annual tax I pay), thought Sue did a good job this year and it is fairly obvious she learnt a lot since Vancouver. I always love the classy comments and valuable insights Robin Cousin shares, respect him so much (He did Abott's sp). I especially like his special man giggle reserved for my fav skater every year. I just want something real in my commentary, anger, delight, shock, surprise etc..
CBC, my second fav, I like Tracey Wilson's even handed comment offers valuable insights and explanation on the technical aspect of the skating, Kurt's balanced and always optimistic comments to have something nice to say about everyone. Unafraid to get real where there are critical points to be made, and you can tell it comes from a good place over riding any national biases as you get in some commentaries.
China CCTV (Feels scripted, very matter of fact, respectable and don't talk over skating. Try to be encouraging but I rarely find something insightful. One of the great male commentator / expert passed away recently, I don't know how they are going to find another replacement.) They apparently commented with Lu Chen this Olympics, still have not seen the clips yet.
Taiwan (Better than I thought, 2 handler, nice balance of average viewer's curiosity vs expertise dry on the technical side. The 4CC broadcast with the Taiwan ISU judge was good.)
Korea (Seems there are rooms for improvement. Wouldn't mind hear Yuna help out to comment on some of these competitions in the future if she feels up for it. She shows she is a tough but fair judge in her Kiss and Cry Shows, and have excellent taste in skaters, just look at her shows. Lambiel stars in every single one.)
I don't know much about Russia commentaries since they are rarely available/translated.
3) War camp Yulia, Adelina, Liza
Not surprised at all. One just need to look at scoring they get at home vs internationally. Adelina is clearly home fav, while I have always preferred Yulia and Liza that is why I paid attention. I thought they were smart to put Yulia in the team event as bench marker due to her consistency. Historically Adelina has always received higher PCS than Yulia at home, so provide Yulia delivers in teams, Adelina can gain even higher PCS relative to her like a spring board. But even I was surprised by how much MORE, and even when Yulia faltered, it doesn't affect her PCS.
4) Olympics games reflection, afterthoughts
Looking back, especially with the PCS and the generous GOEs, it really seems like only the Bronze is up for grabs while the Gold and Silver have already been earmarked for the Russians before anything took place on ice. Yet it was absolutely spectacular and poetic justice the 3 veteran ladies totally delivered their Olympic moments putting out their life time bests and in doing so, completely expose these unprecedented ridiculous one sided nature of the competition that went against any common sense.
There are TV news and articles reports appearing in China that titled 'Yuna Kim didn't gain the Gold but she gained the World.' They ended the news program by play Yuna at Vancouver with the backing track to Adios. I think they got it right. Isn't that the real purpose of it all?
I love reading refreshing insights like these from real insiders which we are not privy to behind the usual ISU wall of silence, crappy communication 893402.9848 (helpful to learn German, French before understand its English. Frankly they feel increasingly like some Starship Enterprise Captain's log full of science fiction fantasies since their application are not exactly reflected in the real world at the most critical events) under anonymity, media spins, fierce national and political interests, that discourage honest opinions due to ties with job / contract / skating shows commercial interests etc.
It confirms a few things
1) Home advantage helps.
Should it? By how much? Are the oversights deliberate or accident or something else? This is the OLYMPICS, has every care been taken to ensure the judging is fair and the results can not be disagreed. Are the rules and the objectivity of the rules so poor, that 14 points PCS improvements can be justified by a 9th world championship finisher (no WC/GPF podium to speak of) in just 2 months while it had took veterans some 7 years of consistent delivery and medals to achieve? Why should anyone bother to compete anymore if they are just going to award the medal to the local richest landlord's fav? Beijing is bidding for 2022, why bother compete anymore? Let's just hand over Zijun the OGM now and save everyone the time. I bet the 1.5 billions of Chinese can shout louder around the world than the 10,000 partisan audiences inside the Iceberg Palace.
2) Perception matters.
Commentators and judges exist to serve the interests of general public and the sport. They are SUPPOSE to be the fairest and impartial to outside influences yet many times they are prevented from doing their job properly.
No wonder Russian coaches need to be very political aware and knows how critical it is to exert influence / pressures where ever possible. I wonder how true is this culture in N.America skating or how about in Japan and the rest of Europe.
Thinking back, this is probably Kim's only mistake in her entire Olympic campaign, she was too honest about everything (what she is here to do, her motivations, small mistake in her sp), her team is not media savvy or experienced enough, it left her vulnerable.
One aspect of the sport is how I have always enjoyed are commentaries from different nationalities and see how different they are. My impressions are based on past viewing and transcript of commentaries where available.
French are very passionate about the artistry and its possibilities and potentials in skating. Good for them. I really love Nathalie and Fabian's programs at this Olympics especially Little Prince.
Italians are passionate about their skating, love European themed programs, things that are classical.
Japan broadcast seems always very polite and encouraging. I wonder if some of them feel pressured to react to certain skater's performance due to public opinions.
Euros Sports Brits are fair and knowledgeable especially on the rules and scoring. They usually call it right before the judges and not afraid to challenge the judging which I always appreciate. They can be terrible with pronouncing the names, perhaps that is why they don't work for the BBC! Pity there didn't report on the Olympics this year.
US NBC. Everyone seems to be living in their own Hollywood skating movie. It is very showbiz, but Olympics do fully justify these sort of bigger than life moments. I do think political correctness should not over ride fairness, and sensationalism should not over ride sense. I wish we can hear more of Bezic's insights on the artistry of program and talk more about choreography which the sport desperately need not just skating for points. Scott's grunts, an overly indulged man child who makes tons of money from this sport, say no more.
US fluffs are a highlight. Remember the one with Rachel Flatt walk the dog and attend class vs Mao and Yuna at Vancouver? This year was all about Yulia and Schindler's list. Ryan Seacrest in Korea. Is there one with Gracie and Ashley? Proms + Cover girl shoot etc. Not watched Johnny and Tara's version yet. Unlike Vassily their careers were on a downward spiral until they landed this gig. I have never cared for Johnny's fashion designs, or Tara's gold anyway. The narcissism displayed through out there career is icky, so are their apparent lack of knowledge on COP and rule changes it seems (Hello... Yuna has won many times with 6 triples programs of great quality, Adelina and many others have lost several times despite the 7 triples, and there were many rules/points changes post Vancouver that disadvantage anyone without the loop despite putting out 2x 3lz and the hardest 3/3combo in the competition which more than satisfy difficulty. The new rules also prevent her to bring her 2A3T which is massively costly.) I bet Johnny and Tara's contract is per this event only. It goes to the whole heart of the matter, why would anyone want to rock the boat and put their own career and sport at risk by saying something controversial?
BBC is my personal fav (well worth £150 annual tax I pay), thought Sue did a good job this year and it is fairly obvious she learnt a lot since Vancouver. I always love the classy comments and valuable insights Robin Cousin shares, respect him so much (He did Abott's sp). I especially like his special man giggle reserved for my fav skater every year. I just want something real in my commentary, anger, delight, shock, surprise etc..
CBC, my second fav, I like Tracey Wilson's even handed comment offers valuable insights and explanation on the technical aspect of the skating, Kurt's balanced and always optimistic comments to have something nice to say about everyone. Unafraid to get real where there are critical points to be made, and you can tell it comes from a good place over riding any national biases as you get in some commentaries.
China CCTV (Feels scripted, very matter of fact, respectable and don't talk over skating. Try to be encouraging but I rarely find something insightful. One of the great male commentator / expert passed away recently, I don't know how they are going to find another replacement.) They apparently commented with Lu Chen this Olympics, still have not seen the clips yet.
Taiwan (Better than I thought, 2 handler, nice balance of average viewer's curiosity vs expertise dry on the technical side. The 4CC broadcast with the Taiwan ISU judge was good.)
Korea (Seems there are rooms for improvement. Wouldn't mind hear Yuna help out to comment on some of these competitions in the future if she feels up for it. She shows she is a tough but fair judge in her Kiss and Cry Shows, and have excellent taste in skaters, just look at her shows. Lambiel stars in every single one.)
I don't know much about Russia commentaries since they are rarely available/translated.
3) War camp Yulia, Adelina, Liza
Not surprised at all. One just need to look at scoring they get at home vs internationally. Adelina is clearly home fav, while I have always preferred Yulia and Liza that is why I paid attention. I thought they were smart to put Yulia in the team event as bench marker due to her consistency. Historically Adelina has always received higher PCS than Yulia at home, so provide Yulia delivers in teams, Adelina can gain even higher PCS relative to her like a spring board. But even I was surprised by how much MORE, and even when Yulia faltered, it doesn't affect her PCS.
4) Olympics games reflection, afterthoughts
Looking back, especially with the PCS and the generous GOEs, it really seems like only the Bronze is up for grabs while the Gold and Silver have already been earmarked for the Russians before anything took place on ice. Yet it was absolutely spectacular and poetic justice the 3 veteran ladies totally delivered their Olympic moments putting out their life time bests and in doing so, completely expose these unprecedented ridiculous one sided nature of the competition that went against any common sense.
There are TV news and articles reports appearing in China that titled 'Yuna Kim didn't gain the Gold but she gained the World.' They ended the news program by play Yuna at Vancouver with the backing track to Adios. I think they got it right. Isn't that the real purpose of it all?
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2014
It's the same everywhere. How big this influence might be, it depends on how many skaters one has. Which one do they support/push more than another skater etc., but when it comes to competing with other countrie's skaters they all back their own. This, assuming they do have top skaters and medal contenders of course.
True. They always like D&W but their top couple was always V&M, usually.
However, Rai commentators are terrible and tehir brodacasting it's horrible. Love the ITA Eurosport commentators. Deep knowledge and fair judgment in their comments.
Sky Italia, so so. Didn't like Fontana at all. The only good thing during this Olympics was Massimiliano Ambesi, the commentator they brought from Eurosport Italia.
Swiss, in italian, are very polite and don't speak very much.
My number has to be the British Eurosport though.
As you said, they're knowledgeable especially on the rules and scoring. They usually call it right before the judges, which is amazing.
The thing I love most about them though, is that they focus a lot on the positive aspects and qualities of each skater.
Even for the weakest skaters they find something encouraging and positive to say.
I think that helps the viewers of not becoming fanatic but just love the sport.
The USA commentators are knowledgeable for sure, but I find them very biased and they talk too much during a performance. Can't stand Scott Hamilton.
I think CBC is good as well.
The rest I don't know. I don't understand the language.
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@os168, @Alba -- speaking as an American, wanted to respond to your comments re: NBC's Sochi coverage, both on prime time and the other NBC-owned outlets. I was honestly embarrassed by much of it -- some of the back-story/fluff pieces made me cringe. Many other Americans felt the same way; if you didn't see it, the feedback in US papers (e.g. NY Times, USA Today) was absolutely scathing for the most part.
Re: Scott Hamilton, I'll always love him for many reasons but have been finding his commentary increasingly distracting. Too much talk, not enough real information.
Apologies for going somewhat off-topic -- just had to say my piece!
Re: Scott Hamilton, I'll always love him for many reasons but have been finding his commentary increasingly distracting. Too much talk, not enough real information.
Apologies for going somewhat off-topic -- just had to say my piece!
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2014
No I couldn't see them from here. I just have the performances found online with NBC coverage and some with CBC.
If you can send me a link, via PM, of the articles in the papers you mentioned, I would very much appreciate.
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Which means he thinks home cooking pretty much trumps everything else. IMO, that's the most depressing aspect. I always have high hopes for US skaters but certainly don't want them to win at the expense of judging integrity.
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- Nov 12, 2013
Don't have to be snarky about it. Before Sochi, a few of us here ALREADY had a thread about Hanyu's PCS inflation over the GP quad resulting in a spike in PCS leading to his gold at GPF in Fukuoka Japan. The difference between Yuna fans and I is that when it happened in competitions which did not involve Yuna, even when the PCS spike is more egregious, they simply do not notice nor do they particularly care. So much for the indignant "it's all about bringing fairness to judging"!
My conclusion is of course home inflation is at work *EVERYWHERE*. I am at least not hypocritical in *ONLY* singling out the Russians. I came around to accepting it not because I agree with home inflation but because the huge PCS difference would make it almost impossible for a younger skater like Hanyu or Adelina to compete against veterans like Chan and Kim on a level playing field. There is no way to bridge a PCS gap of >20, with jumps, steps, spins. Do 10 quads like Javier Fernandez joked about?
Unlike those who cried foul *ONLY* for Adelina but not for all the other skaters who have enjoyed the same favors, I am at least honest, consistent and balanced in applying my judgment and standards. I am also not the type who will go and rend apart the programs of those who beat my own favored skaters. There and then, I concluded that Sochi would see younger skaters getting a stab at beating the veterans, and it would be a battle of the TES.
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The last time there was a US world's was L.A. in 2009.
The US Fed cares most about ladies. Rachel Flatt, the highest US Lady, was 5th.
Lysacek won men's. However, looking at the lineup, he probably deserved it. A very young Chan was 2nd with a messed up combo, Joubert 3rd with a fall and a messed up 2a.
In dance, there was no US judge on the panel. B&A should have won and didn't.
Top US pair was ninth.
A set of reasons why I have felt that USFSA was not the very best home-cooker.
The US Fed cares most about ladies. Rachel Flatt, the highest US Lady, was 5th.
Lysacek won men's. However, looking at the lineup, he probably deserved it. A very young Chan was 2nd with a messed up combo, Joubert 3rd with a fall and a messed up 2a.
In dance, there was no US judge on the panel. B&A should have won and didn't.
Top US pair was ninth.
A set of reasons why I have felt that USFSA was not the very best home-cooker.
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2010
Except if you check my post history I have always been extremely critical of any political and artificial inflation of any kind, including Hanyu's recent ascension especially at home events, in particular in the area of PCS, AS WELL as Patrick's marks at home. EVEN they are among my favourite male skaters.
I actually predicted Hanyu to be an OGM before he hit the seniors and think his original Romeo and Juliet is one of the greatest programs this quad along with Patrick's Elegie and Dai's 2011 programs Garden of Souls and Blues for Klooks, but this is the not the way I want him win, nor Patrick lose it. The men's FS event was tragic, I doubt I will ever replay any of the performances except may be Abbotts if I am really bored.
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You mean Davis/White should have won.
Belbin/Agosto deserved to win the OD but their FD was really awful. They should have been off the podium.
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- Feb 13, 2014
I really favor Patrick cause he is more of an all-rounded skater, but to be fair if he won the gold at Sochi with THAT performance (with PCS over the top like 98?) then I would be devastated. He was like sleepwalking through his free skate and I was so so so...sad to see him like that.
While I can't stand Yuzuru's free skate this season (mostly at his 4S and the juliet costume), I still think his PCS, while should not be over 90, deserve to be around 87 to 88. And even that PCS is enough for him to win, thanks to his TES. I did mention that in men free skate thread.
Frankly, i think this should be ideal: if you fall or make too many mistake, your PCS should drop, too. This would lead us to a more reasonable score. Nevertheless, I do think the placement of men is right this time (Thanks to Plushy who withdrew), even at GPF in which Yuzuru's PCS at free skate suddenly skyrocketed to over 90, he still deserved to win because PChan did not do a good job in his SP there.
It might sound funny but the reason people are too fixable in the ladies is that, in men event everybody can obviously tell why Yuzuru got the gold and PChan got the medal (the one made the fewest mistakes won), while in ladies event the lady who made a mistake won.
It's beyond naive to think that TV news and article reports just "appear." Nothing of this sort ever "appears" without a deliberate, professional push by PR teams of the respective skaters. Without press releases, talking points, proposed features, ample B-roll footage. Without dinners with reporters and careful courting of the favored ones. I'm sure Kim has the best PR team money can buy and as well she should.
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- Feb 13, 2014
I don't think it's Kim's PR team, but more like the result of Korean showbiz's influence over East Asia at the moment. I live in East Asia, and sometimes it annoys the hell out of me (K-pop culture overdose). No offense to any Koreans here, I am just saying sometimes it's just too much. I adore good skating. But when it comes to too much nationalism, I find it somewhat uncomfortable.
Thanks for translating the article. The above, however, is complete nonsense. I have no insight into the Chinese media, but there was no deliberate, professional push by Yuna's supposedly amazing PR team. It's ridiculous to make such an implication.
Yuna gave interviews to the media in the mixed zone, after her practices, in the official press conference after the short program, after the free skate. That's it. They asked her questions and she gave them answers. There were no press releases, no talking points, proposed features, dinners with reporters.
Her performances are what they are, her reaction to winning the Olympic silver medal is what it is. The media reacted based on that, but not anything by her PR team. If you have such evidence of what you suggest above, you should provide it instead of making implications and insinuations.
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- Mar 23, 2010
Except if you are aware of geopolitics in the region, you'd be know there are massive rivalry/resentment feelings many Chinese feel towards Koreans in general, especially in sports such as speed skating, swimming etc. The sporting fans get even more passionate and mean spirited than figure skating that made FSU look like kindergarten fights. But for some reason Kim were able to break down these barriers since Vancouver and appear one of the athletes admired by the Chinese media in particular CCTV = BBC of China despite the fact she is Korean says a lot of her accomplishment as an ambassador of the sport.
Take this video clip for instance that appears next day at Shanghai Morning news (certainly with no time for PR). Instead of addressing the champion, they focused on Yuna Kim. The news title says 'Sorrowful Queen, lost the gold but won the world' They might be referring to her performance as sorrowful but perhaps also the circumstance. They said despite the unbelievable hard to acceptable score appears, Kim only met the lengthy screaming crowd with gentle smile and wave to accept the result. They went on to recall her accomplishments, a gold and a silver at the Olympics, 2 world champion gold medals and said her accomplished performances already proved everything. Then played that clip at the end of the program.
http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/PVQfPZMygks/
