Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 62

Thread: Wagner and Suzuki underscored?

  1. #31
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    271
    I don't think Ashley was underscored at the Olympics. Other skaters may have fallen, but Ashley had numerous mistakes that added up. She had many two-footed jumps, an underrotation call, and an edge call. Those errors all diminished her GOE. With all of those mistakes, I didn't understand why she was so happy after her performance, and I knew her score wouldn't be that high. Her placement was fair, given her lack of technical content compared to the skaters who placed above her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eladola View Post
    Ashley is my girl !

    Her jumps are good enough (hopefully she'll master the 3\3)
    Her spins are fine (Layback with arms in classic position)
    And her consistency is key,

    I feel like the one thing that could really get her programs to spark is an explosive energetic footwork sequence !
    She always seems like she's hardly getting through it slowly, It brings down the whole performance and gives an unsure vibe, like she might fall if she gives it more (A la worlds 2013).

    Suzuki has the goods, including good flowing step sequences, But her last two FS's didn't suit her at all IMO,
    Phantom of the opera? :\
    Ashley is 22-years-old. If she hasn't mastered the 3-3 combo by now, she's very unlikely to do so in the future. At this stage in her career, it's probably something her body doesn't have the capability to perform on a consistent basis.

    Her spins are slow and the positions are pretty weak, but that's okay if she can get all of her levels.

    She doesn't have the skating skills to perform an explosive, level 4 step sequence. Her step sequences are labored precisely because she doesn't have the edge quality/skating skills of the top skaters.

    Compared to the top skaters, Ashley is limited technically. She's been very overrated for a while, and I suspect she will retire without ever winning a medal at the World Championships. I suspect she could even be the third-placed American at this upcoming World Championship. She is being surpassed by young skaters who have superior technical abilities.

  2. #32
    On the Ice
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    36
    I think Suzuki was overscored in the LP at Sochi. She's lovely, normally, but the score was a tad high for her sloppy program.

    I'm not sure about whether Ashley was underscored or someone like Julia was overscored. But, they should've been much closer together in the standings IMO.

  3. #33
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    1,279
    It's odd the way Ashley seems to peak early in the season and then falter by the time Nationals comes around. She has always done pretty well on the Grand Prix and the last three seasons, she has made the finals and landed on the podium. The one exception to her post-Grand Prix slide was in 2012, when she won Nationals going away and beat Mao at Four Continents. Maybe that was her career peak. But I do think that Ashley skates with a lot of spark and when she is on, really sells her programs. Too bad she doesn't get credit for it.

  4. #34
    Down With It
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    13,549
    I feel Wagner peaked 2 years ago, and that her best days are behind her...but for some reason I think it would be a mistake to write her off now. How many thought she was done after 2011?

    ETA: Wagner's only hope is to regain the consistency she had a couple of years ago. That's the only way she can hope to outlast the young ones coming up the ranks. In a weaker field she could definitely still contend for the podium (the past two years, the field has been UNBELIEVABLY deep). This year and next year are good chances for her...probably not as good as the one she had in 2012 but definitely the best she's had since then.

  5. #35
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    5,063
    Quote Originally Posted by juppiter View Post
    Wagner was not underscored. Perhaps other skaters who fell were overscored in comparison to her considering she did not fall, but both of her programs were shaky. She did not deserve to be on the podium.
    I don't think anyone would disagree that she deserves to be off the podium. She was scored appropriately on PCS, except for the fact that those who placed above her were massively overscored on their PCS -- particularly Gold (getting considerably higher PCS with a fall, compared to her clean team FS), Lipnitskaia (getting higher PCS than Asada, and considerably higher PCS with a fall and stepout than her clean team event FS), and Sotnikova (getting the same PCS as Kim).

    She's only write-offable because of the depth of talent that's coming out of Russia, and even in the US. She's not a bad skater by any means.

    It's like some people forget that she won a GP event (and a silver) and was 3rd at the GPF this year. Not that it necessarily means anything seeing as how Mao was 1st, Julia was 2nd and Sotnikova came 5th, which essentially went topsy turvy in Sochi.

  6. #36
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    1,139
    I don't think Ashley is too old to perfect her 3/3. I think she needs a good jump coach. I don't know much about Artunian but it seems to me like Ashley started "slipping" when John Nicks decided to retire.

    Yes Gracie fell but so did Hanyu!!! And a lot of other skaters. I think Gracie is the real deal. She's only been on the senior scene for what, 2 years? Before people pass judgement on her - wait until this coming season is over and see where she is then. Watching junior girls at Nats this year and then seeing the dismal placement of our junior girls at Jr. Worlds, I really think our hopes for the future lie with the 3 that went to the Olys. Karen Chen is not ready. Amber Glenn is athletic but not polished. Rather than tear Gracie and Ashely up one side and down the other, maybe some should throttle it back just a titch. I personally think Gracie will best them all!

  7. #37
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    5,063
    I think Gracie is the real deal too, and stands a greater potential chance at success than Ashley, but she has yet to skate a clean competition or have any international wins, so I'm tentatively optimistic about her chances.

  8. #38
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    2,381
    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I think Gracie is the real deal too, and stands a greater potential chance at success than Ashley, but she has yet to skate a clean competition or have any international wins, so I'm tentatively optimistic about her chances.
    Well exactly how many wins did Ashley have before she won Nationals in 2012? It took her almost 5 years to win any kind of event after she turned Senior while Gracie already is National champion in only her second try.

  9. #39
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    The land of Agent Dale Cooper
    Posts
    8,618
    Quote Originally Posted by Jammers View Post
    Well exactly how many wins did Ashley have before she won Nationals in 2012? It took her almost 5 years to win any kind of event after she turned Senior while Gracie already is National champion in only her second try.
    There is a key difference, however. Ashley Wagner was never hyped up to the level Gracie was. Nor does Ashley have the natural talent Gracie has either.

  10. #40
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    5,063
    Quote Originally Posted by Jammers View Post
    Well exactly how many wins did Ashley have before she won Nationals in 2012? It took her almost 5 years to win any kind of event after she turned Senior while Gracie already is National champion in only her second try.
    I don't think success on an earlier or later attempt really matters, otherwise you could argue that Mirai did one better than Gracie and got the 2008 US National title on her FIRST try, but failed to win any event afterwards except for 2011 Nebelhorn.

    Also, when you become National Champion doesn't necessarily indicate success as it took Cohen 6 years before winning Nationals, even though she had a slew of medals including golds and a GPF win.

    Taking Gold as an absolute, I don't think her being a National champion necessarily translates into future success, although she is far more consistent now than she was earlier in the season and seems to finally have mental fortitude across both segments of the competition. I do think though that her PCS marks were far too high, especially when she essentially skated a clean FS in the team event and yet that somehow gets her 6 points less PCS than the individual FS where she fell. I can only imagine Frank did some major politicking/complaining for her. Instead of bringing Julia's PCS back down to earth (which would have been impossible since she actually got higher PCS with a fall than a clean skate), he must have reached some compromise where Gold would get a boost to her PCS.

  11. #41
    Down With It
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    13,549
    In fact, I don't recall Wagner ever being hyped (Olympics media aside). The attention of USFS and fans was always on someone else - Zhang, Flatt, Czisny...and now Gold. Even in 2012 when Wagner won, the hype machine was already getting started on Gold out of juniors (remember Hersh's article suggesting she replace Czisny?).

    Wagner is not the type of skater that would be hyped, anyway. She doesn't have any "wow" qualities and that's fine - I think she performs better when under the radar anyway (she doesn't appear to be good under pressure). Next year will be interesting with the attention on Gold and perhaps Edmunds/other up and comers...

    Gold may have surpassed Wagner but if Wagner can remain a solid US #2 or #3, she'll get her chances...if two other girls can help keep 3 spots for the US...

  12. #42
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    The land of Agent Dale Cooper
    Posts
    8,618
    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I don't think success on an earlier or later attempt really matters, otherwise you could argue that Mirai did one better than Gracie and got the 2008 US National title on her FIRST try, but failed to win any event afterwards except for 2011 Nebelhorn.

    Also, when you become National Champion doesn't necessarily indicate success as it took Cohen 6 years before winning Nationals, even though she had a slew of medals including golds and a GPF win.

    Taking Gold as an absolute, I don't think her being a National champion necessarily translates into future success, although she is far more consistent now than she was earlier in the season and seems to finally have mental fortitude across both segments of the competition. I do think though that her PCS marks were far too high, especially when she essentially skated a clean FS in the team event and yet that somehow gets her 6 points less PCS than the individual FS where she fell. I can only imagine Frank did some major politicking/complaining for her. Instead of bringing Julia's PCS back down to earth (which would have been impossible since she actually got higher PCS with a fall than a clean skate), he must have reached some compromise where Gold would get a boost to her PCS.
    ITA on all of this. People are on different trajectories in their career but yet people like to frame them based on their view of that skater.

    Quote Originally Posted by R.D. View Post
    In fact, I don't recall Wagner ever being hyped (Olympics media aside). The attention of USFS and fans were always on someone else - Zhang, Flatt, Czisny...and now Gold. Even in 2012 when Wagner won, the hype machine was already getting started on Gold out of juniors (remember Hersh's article suggesting she replace Czisny?).

    Wagner is not the type of skater that would be hyped, anyway. She doesn't have any "wow" qualities and that's fine - I think she performs better when under the radar anyway. Next year will be interesting with the attention on Gold and perhaps Edmunds/other up and comers...

    Gold may have surpassed Wagner but if Wagner can remain a solid US #2, she'll get her chances...or even #3 if two other girls can help keep 3 spots for the US...
    Here's the thing though. I think people admire Wagner (haters, aside I suppose) because she is someone that had to work hard to get where she is. I remember Arsenio Hall saying something like "I love your story" basically that Ashley decided to make the cross-country move to California and to take responsibility financially for her career.

    She's being painted as this privileged ice princess now due to all the bruhaha, but really Ashley is where she is because she made things happen for herself in spite of whatever setbacks and shortcomings she has.

    I think people may be, more or less, frustrated with Gracie (and Mirai back in 2010) because she truly has all the tools to be amazing. Gracie seems to be cashing in on that potential now.

    Point is, comparing Ashley and Gracie is apples to oranges for a number of reasons.
    Last edited by Mrs. P; 03-17-2014 at 03:08 PM.

  13. #43
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    5,063
    You're totally right Mrs. P. Gold has much stronger elements than Mirai and can cash in on that potential. But until she delivers I'm not going to start counting my chickens. She's capable of it, but people are jumping the gun about Gracie based on a few competitions.

    I totally admire Wagner for having to work hard hard to get where she is (not that others haven't either). But like Suzuki and Kostner, she is a sentimental favourite because she didn't end up having early success, and was rather cast aside (by fans/federations/inconsistencies/whatever) yet rose above it to find success later in her career.

  14. #44
    Down With It
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    13,549
    I think people may be, more or less, frustrated with Gracie (and Mirai back in 2010) because she truly has all the tools to be amazing. Gracie seems to be FINALLY cashing in on that potential now.
    Wait a minute - "FINALLY" cashing in on that potential??? you skate fans crack me up. This is only her SECOND year on the senior level!

    I can understand frustration with Nagasu (and even Cohen back in the early 2000s) since they were theoretically capable of better results than they got (realistically, it's a different story but that's beyond scope of discussion)...it remains to be seen what will happen with Gold - but she IS still early on in her career. Wagner, OTOH is approaching the end of hers, and no world or Olympic medal (indiv) to show for her efforts (yet).

    And YES...Gold seems to be on an upward trajectory but I wouldn't necessarily get too excited yet. She has yet to feel the pressure of being chased instead of being the chaser...we don't know how long her career will last...so many variables in play here. I only hope she doesn't pull a Nagasu and tank Worlds...

  15. #45
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    830
    Quote Originally Posted by R.D. View Post
    Wait a minute - "FINALLY" cashing in on that potential??? you skate fans crack me up. This is only her SECOND year on the senior level!

    I can understand frustration with Nagasu (and even Cohen back in the early 2000s) since they were theoretically capable of better results than they got (realistically, it's a different story but that's beyond scope of discussion)...it remains to be seen what will happen with Gold - but she IS still early on in her career. Wagner, OTOH is approaching the end of hers, and no world or Olympic medal (indiv) to show for her efforts (yet).
    Agreed. Gracie has been on a consistent upward arc. She's only been to senior Worlds once, senior Nationals twice, her first Olympics with a 4th place finish. She is consistently improving overall, in spite of the lack of GP wins. So no one should be frustrated with her--yet.

    Worlds in Japan will be very key for Gracie. A good finish, whether it's a medal, title, or top 4/5 finish in a top quality competition, will be very good for her momentum going into next season.

    Wagner doesn't have a world or Olympic medal, but she does have a bunch of other medals and a 4CCs title and 2 US Nationals title. It's not a bad haul. Sasha Cohen never won an ISU championship, and oddly, only 1 US National title...

Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •