"The Prometheus: Why Patrick Chan Means More for Figure Skating History Than Plushenko" | Page 2 | Golden Skate

"The Prometheus: Why Patrick Chan Means More for Figure Skating History Than Plushenko"

GF2445

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 7, 2012
Every discipline has its appeals and drawbacks. This article highlights what makes mens skating both appealing and unappealing these days.
 

Procrastinator

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 12, 2014
I still don't get what makes it appealing though? They have none of the artistry or performance appeal of the ladies (and no, plushenko, never had this), and they have the tricks, yes, but most of them struggle with them and even when they don't the quad jumps aren't exactly aesthetically pleasing (Hanyu and Chan may be the exceptions). But even with Hanyu and Chan, there's just still no appreciable stage presence there. I certainly hope that these next four years help them with that, as they'll be more mature by then.
 

moviechick

On the Ice
Joined
May 7, 2008
They're maximizing points. That doesn't always lead to appealing performances. When you kind of know in the back of your mind that you can fall and still win (as you can in this system), it's not a great motivator to turn out a clean performance.

Do we really believe that if Chan was actually judged properly for his splatty performances in the past, he wouldnt have actually worked on his axel and tried to clean it up? Chan is as much a calculator as anyone, he does what he does to maximize his own points given the state of judging.
 

noskates

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 11, 2012
I am a fan of Patrick Chan's. I was very disappointed in his skate at the Olympics and I find it rather disgusting that people tee off on him on this board. BUT - freedom of speech and all. Regardless of the fact that Tarasova is pretty full of herself, much of what she said I'm in agreement with - especially the difference between Plushenko's skate and Lysacek's skate in Vancouver. And I do think Patrick changed everyone's way of thinking in that the jump wasn't the focus. Good skating should be the focus and that includes spins, footwork and moves in the field. Patrick has all that but just can't seem to skate it clean. I would MUCH prefer to see clean skates. But barring that (which seems all of a sudden to be the norm) I would rather see beautiful choreography and smooth skating than just quads!!! In my opinion the jumps shouldn't be the be-all and end-all of a program. The emphasis on the quad has been dastardly to some male figure skaters and certainly gave us a crappy men's free skate in Sochi. I think there should be more of a penalty for falling than there is. Giving partial credit for rotations is counter-intuitive in my mind. Many can rotate, few can land. Why be rewarded for something you really can't do???? Because if you could really do it in competition it would be more than just rotations. Give some credit to a two-footed landing because at least you "completed" the jump and didn't fall on your butt.
 

usethis2

Medalist
Joined
Feb 11, 2014
I still don't get what makes it appealing though? They have none of the artistry or performance appeal of the ladies (and no, plushenko, never had this), and they have the tricks, yes, but most of them struggle with them and even when they don't the quad jumps aren't exactly aesthetically pleasing (Hanyu and Chan may be the exceptions). But even with Hanyu and Chan, there's just still no appreciable stage presence there. I certainly hope that these next four years help them with that, as they'll be more mature by then.

I agree with this. While I have nothing against the sport's advance, but unless done exceptionally well a quad can look flat because skaters often slow down to control their bodies before take-off, which results in slow landing flow. I am sure they all try to improve, though.
 

plushyfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2012
Country
Hungary
Regardless of the fact that Tarasova is pretty full of herself, much of what she said I'm in agreement with - especially the difference between Plushenko's skate and Lysacek's skate in Vancouver.

Tarasova exactly said: Plushenko should have won. Lysacek's SP scores were huliganism. :)
 

Ladskater

~ Figure Skating Is My Passion ~
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
This was too long for me to read without falling asleep. Patrick Chan was a victim of his nerves and too much pressure to be the first Canadian Male to win Gold at the Olympics. End of story.
 

Meoima

Match Penalty
Joined
Feb 13, 2014
This was too long for me to read without falling asleep. Patrick Chan was a victim of his nerves and too much pressure to be the first Canadian Male to win Gold at the Olympics. End of story.

Sad but true.
 

Suzzie

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 6, 2014
This was too long for me to read without falling asleep. Patrick Chan was a victim of his nerves and too much pressure to be the first Canadian Male to win Gold at the Olympics. End of story.

very true. too sad for him. i wanna hope he'll have another chance
 

prettykeys

Medalist
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
I think you guys are missing the point of the writer and what he means when he calls Patrick Chan a Prometheus.

It means that the way that Patrick Chan set the direction of Men's figure skating in this most recent Olympic cycle refocused it on demonstrating great basics besides just having strong jumps. The article also mentioned that Chan additionally inadvertently set up his own undoing, by way of the very talented Yuzuru Hanyu who studied Chan's strengths and also worked on great basics + jumps.

Meanwhile, the writer points out that early genius Plushenko was capable of doing the same but that in his pragmatic quest for victories, he, along with Mishin, betrayed their true ideals of the sport ("jumps as extensions of glides") and "stripped" down his later performances. The writer admires the struggle and imperfection of striving for well-rounded excellence rather than a clean empty product, hence his appreciation of Chan and Hanyu despite their mistakes at the Olympics.

I thought the article had very interesting insights and makes me respect Mishin as a coach even more.
 

Meoima

Match Penalty
Joined
Feb 13, 2014
I think you guys are missing the point of the writer and what he means when he calls Patrick Chan a Prometheus.

It means that the way that Patrick Chan set the direction of Men's figure skating in this most recent Olympic cycle refocused it on demonstrating great basics besides just having strong jumps. The article also mentioned that Chan additionally inadvertently set up his own undoing, by way of the very talented Yuzuru Hanyu who studied Chan's strengths and also worked on great basics + jumps.

Meanwhile, the writer points out that early genius Plushenko was capable of doing the same but that in his pragmatic quest for victories, he, along with Mishin, betrayed their true ideals of the sport ("jumps as extensions of glides") and "stripped" down his later performances. The writer admires the struggle and imperfection of striving for well-rounded excellence rather than a clean empty product, hence his appreciation of Chan and Hanyu despite their mistakes at the Olympics.

I thought the article had very interesting insights and makes me respect Mishin as a coach even more.

This :yay:

Even though I don't agree with some points, I have to say this article moves me to an extent.
 

aschiutza

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
I would understand giving Chan such an importamce if his world victories were undisputed. But they are not.

The writer forget about Lambiel, forget about Taka, forget too many things. For example let's see first how Chan will fare in the next 10 years if now is less than a stable skater. Then compare him with Plushenko. For now he should have compared Plushenko till he was 23 and not with the end of career of Plushenko, when too many injury let him to minimalise his programs.

Yes, Chan has used cleverly the point system, but was he so inovative? Was any of his transition, steps, spins something new with which he really pushed the sport?
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
Patrick Chan is the first person to combine Quads with non-stop transitions (except going into the 3Axel...it must be said). That's great.

But it comes at the cost of sacrificing performance, choreography, and interpretation. Not to mention consistency.

End result: not worth it. Virtually nobody wants to watch his skating instead of the skating we've seen from Yagudin, Lambiel, or Browning. It's not as exciting. It's not as interesting. It's not as FUN.
 

Meoima

Match Penalty
Joined
Feb 13, 2014
Patrick Chan is the first person to combine Quads with non-stop transitions (except going into the 3Axel...it must be said). That's great.

But it comes at the cost of sacrificing performance, choreography, and interpretation. Not to mention consistency.

End result: not worth it. Virtually nobody wants to watch his skating instead of the skating we've seen from Yagudin, Lambiel, or Browning. It's not as exciting. It's not as interesting. It's not as FUN.

I don't think it costs his performance, choreography, and interpretation. Sometimes he is off, other times he is on, so are other skaters. But I do agree that the cost of consistency should not be favored.

I hope these several years with fall is just a transition and all the skaters will come back stronger next season.
 

prettykeys

Medalist
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
I would understand giving Chan such an importamce if his world victories were undisputed. But they are not.

The writer forget about Lambiel, forget about Taka, forget too many things.
Lambiel or Takahashi were not dominant enough to be consistent champions. They are usually considered to be artistically gifted, charismatic skaters who could, at their best, do difficult jumps, excellent spins (Lambiel), or excellent footwork (Takahashi), but not consistently. At Chan's best, he could (and sometimes did) combine the hardest yet most effortless-looking quads, nice 3Axels, breath-taking footwork, and good choreography (even if some can criticize his performance abilities.)

For example let's see first how Chan will fare in the next 10 years if now is less than a stable skater. Then compare him with Plushenko. For now he should have compared Plushenko till he was 23 and not with the end of career of Plushenko, when too many injury let him to minimalise his programs.

Yes, Chan has used cleverly the point system, but was he so inovative? Was any of his transition, steps, spins something new with which he really pushed the sport?
Umm, Plushenko stripped down his programs not just at the injury-riddled end of his career...he did it during the peak of his rivalry with Yagudin, as well. Just as the article said, he and Mishin saw that Yagudin was making a comeback before 2002 SLC after his struggles, and they apparently changed their strategy. It wasn't just the 6.0 judging system...I recall that Yagudin included some dramatic highlights in his programs that weren't jumps; in particular, I love his Gladiator FS where at one point he drops low and slides on the ice. From 2002-2006, Plushenko had quite hollow programs.

Chan was not incredibly innovative but he did the things you mention + the most difficult jumps extremely well. He is a very good all-around skater. Also, he had some of the most technically difficult footwork seen in singles competitive programs and the purity of his edges in his basics are greatly admired. He and his coaches/teachers invested in that; he wasn't just born with those skills.
 

aschiutza

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
At the end of the day, the message i got from Chan is the next " the aim is to gather as many points you can, using your strength, not the daring way, not the risky way and you can have as many imperfections you want as long as the math is working". Pretty in the same shoes of Lysacek, even when Chan is miles better in his skills. My problem with him is his miss of charisma and of big tricks. When i look at him skating i always went "oh, this is a nice move, oh here he is gliding so nice, here this steps are interesting". After 5 minutes i forget all, there is nothing special that remains in my head, even his steps are not in my heads like those of Yagudin in Winter program or steps and spins of Lambiel in so many programs (to compare just with two skaters i liked). I miss at him that big emotion, big feeling, big atlethic mindset, that "i moved the mountains".

That is why i see not so much long lasting influence for the future from his part and not at all as a legend (i am refering here to comparing him with Prometheus, who has fight with the gods and dared). Yes, people learned from him that you can gather points from every blade moving. Naturally, he is not as the end of his career, this may change. But as it is, in this moment, nope. If he stops now, he will be seen as a hard-working gifted skater, but influencial? I see in Yuzuru more the influence of both Plushenko and Takahashi than Chan, for example.
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Lambiel or Takahashi were not dominant enough to be consistent champions. They are usually considered to be artistically gifted, charismatic skaters who could, at their best, do difficult jumps, excellent spins (Lambiel), or excellent footwork (Takahashi), but not consistently. At Chan's best, he could (and sometimes did) combine the hardest yet most effortless-looking quads, nice 3Axels, breath-taking footwork, and good choreography (even if some can criticize his performance abilities.)
So basically: neither Chan nor Takahashi/Lambiel were all that consistent, but for some reason this means that Lambiel and Takahashi's accomplishments should be discarded? Why are we comparing Chan at his best and Takahashi/Lambiel not at their best? It's not a relevant comparison. Also, was Chan dominant enough to be a consistent champion, or was he merely scored well enough to be a consistent champion? That's not the same thing, you know. BTW, I think someone on FSU actually compared Chan and Takahashi directly and concluded that Takahashi actually had more transitions while Chan had more difficulty. And Takahashi is a much better performer.

Also, they didn't do the most difficult jumps; the most difficult jumps landed in competition are the 4Lz and 4S, and none of these skaters have landed either. Chan and Lambiel also had iffy 3As and Takahashi had iffy 4Ts. As a more general point, I find the fixation on transitions at the expense of all else baffling. What's so good about transitions that lead to botched elements and are in the program just to show that a skater can do many transitions?

The premise of the article is ridiculous. Plushenko had a huge impact on many skaters (including Hanyu). Chan had a huge impact on many skaters. They're both achieved a lot in skating, and there's no need to put one down to make the other look better.
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2013
Country
United-States
I think you guys are missing the point of the writer and what he means when he calls Patrick Chan a Prometheus.

It means that the way that Patrick Chan set the direction of Men's figure skating in this most recent Olympic cycle refocused it on demonstrating great basics besides just having strong jumps. The article also mentioned that Chan additionally inadvertently set up his own undoing, by way of the very talented Yuzuru Hanyu who studied Chan's strengths and also worked on great basics + jumps.

Meanwhile, the writer points out that early genius Plushenko was capable of doing the same but that in his pragmatic quest for victories, he, along with Mishin, betrayed their true ideals of the sport ("jumps as extensions of glides") and "stripped" down his later performances. The writer admires the struggle and imperfection of striving for well-rounded excellence rather than a clean empty product, hence his appreciation of Chan and Hanyu despite their mistakes at the Olympics.

I thought the article had very interesting insights and makes me respect Mishin as a coach even more.

:clap:Well said. I was waiting for this post to agree with so I didn't have to type one myself. Thanks for taking the time and sharing a positive and respectful approach! :bow:
 

Anna K.

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Country
Latvia
Igor Poroshin
http://www.sports.ru/tribuna/blogs/bladerunner/574662.html

Yes, it's very sad that both guys fell down. But that's not at all the point. The point is that what these two guys do on the ice is beyond precedent, beyond comprehension. The point is that these boys are the warriors, the poets, the tightrope walkers of their art. They fall because they work without a safety net. The point is that the road yields to the ones who risk and fall, not the ones who crawl along to collect the next paycheck for their family. That only these bladerunners move our civilization forward. That Patrick Chan, even without a gold medal, became the Prometheus of figure skating. Undoubtedly, Tatyana Tarasova knows who Prometheus was.

These are definitely the most poetic words said about any of warriors who have ever hit the ice with their... :yes:
 
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