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Thread: "The Prometheus: Why Patrick Chan Means More for Figure Skating History Than Plushenko"

  1. #31
    Love popcorn, hate horendous costumes Meoima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prettykeys View Post
    I think you guys are missing the point of the writer and what he means when he calls Patrick Chan a Prometheus.

    It means that the way that Patrick Chan set the direction of Men's figure skating in this most recent Olympic cycle refocused it on demonstrating great basics besides just having strong jumps. The article also mentioned that Chan additionally inadvertently set up his own undoing, by way of the very talented Yuzuru Hanyu who studied Chan's strengths and also worked on great basics + jumps.

    Meanwhile, the writer points out that early genius Plushenko was capable of doing the same but that in his pragmatic quest for victories, he, along with Mishin, betrayed their true ideals of the sport ("jumps as extensions of glides") and "stripped" down his later performances. The writer admires the struggle and imperfection of striving for well-rounded excellence rather than a clean empty product, hence his appreciation of Chan and Hanyu despite their mistakes at the Olympics.

    I thought the article had very interesting insights and makes me respect Mishin as a coach even more.
    This

    Even though I don't agree with some points, I have to say this article moves me to an extent.

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    I would understand giving Chan such an importamce if his world victories were undisputed. But they are not.

    The writer forget about Lambiel, forget about Taka, forget too many things. For example let's see first how Chan will fare in the next 10 years if now is less than a stable skater. Then compare him with Plushenko. For now he should have compared Plushenko till he was 23 and not with the end of career of Plushenko, when too many injury let him to minimalise his programs.

    Yes, Chan has used cleverly the point system, but was he so inovative? Was any of his transition, steps, spins something new with which he really pushed the sport?

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    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Patrick Chan is the first person to combine Quads with non-stop transitions (except going into the 3Axel...it must be said). That's great.

    But it comes at the cost of sacrificing performance, choreography, and interpretation. Not to mention consistency.

    End result: not worth it. Virtually nobody wants to watch his skating instead of the skating we've seen from Yagudin, Lambiel, or Browning. It's not as exciting. It's not as interesting. It's not as FUN.

  4. #34
    Love popcorn, hate horendous costumes Meoima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Patrick Chan is the first person to combine Quads with non-stop transitions (except going into the 3Axel...it must be said). That's great.

    But it comes at the cost of sacrificing performance, choreography, and interpretation. Not to mention consistency.

    End result: not worth it. Virtually nobody wants to watch his skating instead of the skating we've seen from Yagudin, Lambiel, or Browning. It's not as exciting. It's not as interesting. It's not as FUN.
    I don't think it costs his performance, choreography, and interpretation. Sometimes he is off, other times he is on, so are other skaters. But I do agree that the cost of consistency should not be favored.

    I hope these several years with fall is just a transition and all the skaters will come back stronger next season.

  5. #35
    can't come down to Earth prettykeys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aschiutza View Post
    I would understand giving Chan such an importamce if his world victories were undisputed. But they are not.

    The writer forget about Lambiel, forget about Taka, forget too many things.
    Lambiel or Takahashi were not dominant enough to be consistent champions. They are usually considered to be artistically gifted, charismatic skaters who could, at their best, do difficult jumps, excellent spins (Lambiel), or excellent footwork (Takahashi), but not consistently. At Chan's best, he could (and sometimes did) combine the hardest yet most effortless-looking quads, nice 3Axels, breath-taking footwork, and good choreography (even if some can criticize his performance abilities.)

    Quote Originally Posted by aschiutza View Post
    For example let's see first how Chan will fare in the next 10 years if now is less than a stable skater. Then compare him with Plushenko. For now he should have compared Plushenko till he was 23 and not with the end of career of Plushenko, when too many injury let him to minimalise his programs.

    Yes, Chan has used cleverly the point system, but was he so inovative? Was any of his transition, steps, spins something new with which he really pushed the sport?
    Umm, Plushenko stripped down his programs not just at the injury-riddled end of his career...he did it during the peak of his rivalry with Yagudin, as well. Just as the article said, he and Mishin saw that Yagudin was making a comeback before 2002 SLC after his struggles, and they apparently changed their strategy. It wasn't just the 6.0 judging system...I recall that Yagudin included some dramatic highlights in his programs that weren't jumps; in particular, I love his Gladiator FS where at one point he drops low and slides on the ice. From 2002-2006, Plushenko had quite hollow programs.

    Chan was not incredibly innovative but he did the things you mention + the most difficult jumps extremely well. He is a very good all-around skater. Also, he had some of the most technically difficult footwork seen in singles competitive programs and the purity of his edges in his basics are greatly admired. He and his coaches/teachers invested in that; he wasn't just born with those skills.

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    At the end of the day, the message i got from Chan is the next " the aim is to gather as many points you can, using your strength, not the daring way, not the risky way and you can have as many imperfections you want as long as the math is working". Pretty in the same shoes of Lysacek, even when Chan is miles better in his skills. My problem with him is his miss of charisma and of big tricks. When i look at him skating i always went "oh, this is a nice move, oh here he is gliding so nice, here this steps are interesting". After 5 minutes i forget all, there is nothing special that remains in my head, even his steps are not in my heads like those of Yagudin in Winter program or steps and spins of Lambiel in so many programs (to compare just with two skaters i liked). I miss at him that big emotion, big feeling, big atlethic mindset, that "i moved the mountains".

    That is why i see not so much long lasting influence for the future from his part and not at all as a legend (i am refering here to comparing him with Prometheus, who has fight with the gods and dared). Yes, people learned from him that you can gather points from every blade moving. Naturally, he is not as the end of his career, this may change. But as it is, in this moment, nope. If he stops now, he will be seen as a hard-working gifted skater, but influencial? I see in Yuzuru more the influence of both Plushenko and Takahashi than Chan, for example.

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    Quote Originally Posted by prettykeys View Post
    Lambiel or Takahashi were not dominant enough to be consistent champions. They are usually considered to be artistically gifted, charismatic skaters who could, at their best, do difficult jumps, excellent spins (Lambiel), or excellent footwork (Takahashi), but not consistently. At Chan's best, he could (and sometimes did) combine the hardest yet most effortless-looking quads, nice 3Axels, breath-taking footwork, and good choreography (even if some can criticize his performance abilities.)
    So basically: neither Chan nor Takahashi/Lambiel were all that consistent, but for some reason this means that Lambiel and Takahashi's accomplishments should be discarded? Why are we comparing Chan at his best and Takahashi/Lambiel not at their best? It's not a relevant comparison. Also, was Chan dominant enough to be a consistent champion, or was he merely scored well enough to be a consistent champion? That's not the same thing, you know. BTW, I think someone on FSU actually compared Chan and Takahashi directly and concluded that Takahashi actually had more transitions while Chan had more difficulty. And Takahashi is a much better performer.

    Also, they didn't do the most difficult jumps; the most difficult jumps landed in competition are the 4Lz and 4S, and none of these skaters have landed either. Chan and Lambiel also had iffy 3As and Takahashi had iffy 4Ts. As a more general point, I find the fixation on transitions at the expense of all else baffling. What's so good about transitions that lead to botched elements and are in the program just to show that a skater can do many transitions?

    The premise of the article is ridiculous. Plushenko had a huge impact on many skaters (including Hanyu). Chan had a huge impact on many skaters. They're both achieved a lot in skating, and there's no need to put one down to make the other look better.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by prettykeys View Post
    I think you guys are missing the point of the writer and what he means when he calls Patrick Chan a Prometheus.

    It means that the way that Patrick Chan set the direction of Men's figure skating in this most recent Olympic cycle refocused it on demonstrating great basics besides just having strong jumps. The article also mentioned that Chan additionally inadvertently set up his own undoing, by way of the very talented Yuzuru Hanyu who studied Chan's strengths and also worked on great basics + jumps.

    Meanwhile, the writer points out that early genius Plushenko was capable of doing the same but that in his pragmatic quest for victories, he, along with Mishin, betrayed their true ideals of the sport ("jumps as extensions of glides") and "stripped" down his later performances. The writer admires the struggle and imperfection of striving for well-rounded excellence rather than a clean empty product, hence his appreciation of Chan and Hanyu despite their mistakes at the Olympics.

    I thought the article had very interesting insights and makes me respect Mishin as a coach even more.
    Well said. I was waiting for this post to agree with so I didn't have to type one myself. Thanks for taking the time and sharing a positive and respectful approach!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadya View Post
    Igor Poroshin
    http://www.sports.ru/tribuna/blogs/b...er/574662.html

    Yes, it's very sad that both guys fell down. But that's not at all the point. The point is that what these two guys do on the ice is beyond precedent, beyond comprehension. The point is that these boys are the warriors, the poets, the tightrope walkers of their art. They fall because they work without a safety net. The point is that the road yields to the ones who risk and fall, not the ones who crawl along to collect the next paycheck for their family. That only these bladerunners move our civilization forward. That Patrick Chan, even without a gold medal, became the Prometheus of figure skating. Undoubtedly, Tatyana Tarasova knows who Prometheus was.
    These are definitely the most poetic words said about any of warriors who have ever hit the ice with their...

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anna K. View Post
    These are definitely the most poetic words said about any of warriors who have ever hit the ice with their...
    Oh please, don't ruin my almost burst into tears mood how poetic

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anna K. View Post
    These are definitely the most poetic words said about any of warriors who have ever hit the ice with their...
    That's why I think his cannabis was excellent.

    With respect to the posters upthread, I actually don't agree with them. The author makes it out like this: Plushenko - calculating hack who skates the bare minimum he has to win. Due to timing and luck, for most of his career the "bare minimum" hasn't been very much. Chan - an inspired arteeste, who pours his soul out on the ice with sophisticated choreography, mind-boggling transitions AND fabulous jumps to fully express his talent, scores be damned. But that's such BS. They are both calculating athletes who do what they have to do to win. It just so happened that the rules under which they had to do that differed. Plushenko skated clean, minimal programs to win, and he did win. Chan packs his program with stuff to win, and sometimes it works because even when he botches his jumps, the rest of the stuff is worth enough points to win. I disagree completely Chan is doing it for kicks. He is doing it - just like Plushenko - to win.

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    Really, this might make more sense if Chan could 3A to save his life. But his proficiency with quads is mostly just a way for him to make up for his sketchy and unreliable axel, not cause he's trying to push this sport.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadya View Post
    That's why I think his cannabis was excellent.

    With respect to the posters upthread, I actually don't agree with them. The author makes it out like this: Plushenko - calculating hack who skates the bare minimum he has to win. Due to timing and luck, for most of his career the "bare minimum" hasn't been very much. Chan - an inspired arteeste, who pours his soul out on the ice with sophisticated choreography, mind-boggling transitions AND fabulous jumps to fully express his talent, scores be damned. But that's such BS. They are both calculating athletes who do what they have to do to win. It just so happened that the rules under which they had to do that differed. Plushenko skated clean, minimal programs to win, and he did win. Chan packs his program with stuff to win, and sometimes it works because even when he botches his jumps, the rest of the stuff is worth enough points to win. I disagree completely Chan is doing it for kicks. He is doing it - just like Plushenko - to win.
    I agree with you that what Mr. Poroshin was smoking when he wrote this article must have been superb. The analogy Chan - Prometheus is

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anna K. View Post
    These are definitely the most poetic words said about any of warriors who have ever hit the ice with their...
    He ripped off Theodore Roosevelt (1910):

    It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.
    There were so many Titans at Sochi. Besides Chan and Hanyu, there were Takahashi, Machida, Liebers, Reynolds, Verner, Abbott -- they all botched their quads while daring greatly. No timid souls here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by prettykeys View Post
    Lambiel or Takahashi were not dominant enough to be consistent champions. They are usually considered to be artistically gifted, charismatic skaters who could, at their best, do difficult jumps, excellent spins (Lambiel), or excellent footwork (Takahashi), but not consistently. At Chan's best, he could (and sometimes did) combine the hardest yet most effortless-looking quads, nice 3Axels, breath-taking footwork, and good choreography (even if some can criticize his performance abilities.)

    Umm, Plushenko stripped down his programs not just at the injury-riddled end of his career...he did it during the peak of his rivalry with Yagudin, as well. Just as the article said, he and Mishin saw that Yagudin was making a comeback before 2002 SLC after his struggles, and they apparently changed their strategy. It wasn't just the 6.0 judging system...I recall that Yagudin included some dramatic highlights in his programs that weren't jumps; in particular, I love his Gladiator FS where at one point he drops low and slides on the ice. From 2002-2006, Plushenko had quite hollow programs.

    Chan was not incredibly innovative but he did the things you mention + the most difficult jumps extremely well. He is a very good all-around skater. Also, he had some of the most technically difficult footwork seen in singles competitive programs and the purity of his edges in his basics are greatly admired. He and his coaches/teachers invested in that; he wasn't just born with those skills.
    Yagudin had pretty much identical program set ups as Plushenko back in the day. Their jumping passes are practically identically timed, he had the benefit of better choreographed programs but there were many empty spaces where he catches his breath and stops to emote/pose. I just don't see how that's a bad thing compared to these recent programs where every transition must have a transition and we get sloppy performances winning so much. I mean, even when Yags made mistakes in his programs, he sold the rest of the performance like his life depended on it and I think he was able to do that because he had room to breathe and emote instead of thinking about every transition as a point value. That's something I don't see from Chan who very much looks defeated after he falls and slows down the momentum of his program.

    If anything, all these sketchy Chan wins should be making the sport reevaluate if it really values transitions that much over performance quality.

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