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Thread: Are Spins Underscored and Undervalued in Figure Skating?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by zamboni step View Post
    If someone could do all that without it deserving -3s across the board, then they're the greatest spinner of all time. But they could have gotten a level 11 with a clear acceleration without changing position or foot. I only question the two changes of foot in this spin, I'm sure that's not allowed. But if someone could do all the other features then yes, they should be fully rewarded with a huge base value. Jumps don't have a cap to their increase in base value as they get more difficult, why should spins?
    Nope, it's just one... the crossfoot can be done forwards (I believe Fernandez has done it like that)... and of course, a reverse direction spin is fine (see Miyahara).

    Jumps don't have an cap to their increase in base value as they get more difficult but they do have a cap to how many jumping passes you get. Although that's a bit of apples and oranges. A triple axel will always be a triple axel - and then skaters gain or lose point based on execution of it - but a FCCoSp can have a variety of features that differ from one skater to another and is then given bonus/deductions based on execution. I don't think they can be compared, and that's just the tip of the iceberg for explaining that.

    You know the 3-complex-turns-with-rhythm combination in footwork sequences? The level requirement is to do 2 of them, but many skaters choose to incorporate 3 or 4 in their footwork, in case one ends up on the wrong edge, so the level feature is still achieved. I kind of see extra levels in spins the same way, like a "failsafe"... a skater can choose to do 5 or 6 features if they like, but under the current set of rules, they're doing more than what is necessary in order to ensure the level is 4. That way, if a position isn't achieved, or 8 rotations don't happen, the spin can still get a maximum score. Plus, they are also rewarded for more than the required positions/rotations with GOE. Might not seem like enough points for it, but the point isn't to create level 6 and 7 spins.

    I mean, footwork sequences are laboured enough with skaters trying to achieve the turns/steps necessary for a level 4... providing higher levels for spins beyond level 4 would likely lead to laboured spins with skaters attempting every single position and feature in the book. A skater wouldn't have to worry about -3's across the board for a spin like the one I suggested, because an achieved level 10 spin even with -3's across the board it would still be higher than a well executed level 4. You see it already with skaters attempting a Biellmann even if they can't do one well and would probably execute a level 3 better, or holding a sit forever to 8 rotations, just so they can get the higher level 4. Now imagine if you had level 5 and 6.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Look I am not disputing that Sotnikova's win was a farce and the scoring was terrible in too many areas to count. I am just pointing out that if there is one legitimate place she picked up points that contributed largely to her win it was spins, which were legitimately better than Kim and Kostner (although still overscored, while theirs were still underscored somewhat, and the gap there was even exagerrated).
    Don't forget base value (61.45 to Kim's 57.49 and Kostner's 58.49), and it still would have been higher if the 3T was called as UR.

  3. #33
    Rejoicing in the land of Kwan kwanatic's Avatar
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    Well that was one area Adelina clearly had both Yu-Na and Carolina beat. Her spins were much better than both ladies. Adelina>>>>> Carolina >/= Yu-Na

    Adelina's spins had excellent speed and centering as well as unique/strong positions (lovely stretch and flexibility). I think each of her spins was worth +2...maybe a +3 for that contorted camel simply b/c no one else in the world does that spin and (IMO) exclusivity should equal an automatic +1.

    I put Carolina ahead of Yu-Na b/c while Yu-Na's spins are faster, her positions aren't as aesthetically pleasing as Carolina's. Carolina has better stretch through her legs which give her camel positions a much better line; her layback spin has a better leg position and her catchfoot position looks better to me as well. Yu-Na's absolute best position in her layover camel...the rest of her positions fall b/w decent and good. She does have nice speed and centering on all of her spins though, so I'd say her spins (along w/ Carolina's) are all worth +1.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Nope, it's just one... the crossfoot can be done forwards (I believe Fernandez has done it like that)... and of course, a reverse direction spin is fine (see Miyahara).

    Jumps don't have an cap to their increase in base value as they get more difficult but they do have a cap to how many jumping passes you get. Although that's a bit of apples and oranges. A triple axel will always be a triple axel - and then skaters gain or lose point based on execution of it - but a FCCoSp can have a variety of features that differ from one skater to another and is then given bonus/deductions based on execution. I don't think they can be compared, and that's just the tip of the iceberg for explaining that.

    You know the 3-complex-turns-with-rhythm combination in footwork sequences? The level requirement is to do 2 of them, but many skaters choose to incorporate 3 or 4 in their footwork, in case one ends up on the wrong edge, so the level feature is still achieved. I kind of see extra levels in spins the same way, like a "failsafe"... a skater can choose to do 5 or 6 features if they like, but under the current set of rules, they're doing more than what is necessary in order to ensure the level is 4. That way, if a position isn't achieved, or 8 rotations don't happen, the spin can still get a maximum score. Plus, they are also rewarded for more than the required positions/rotations with GOE. Might not seem like enough points for it, but the point isn't to create level 6 and 7 spins.

    I mean, footwork sequences are laboured enough with skaters trying to achieve the turns/steps necessary for a level 4... providing higher levels for spins beyond level 4 would likely lead to laboured spins with skaters attempting every single position and feature in the book. A skater wouldn't have to worry about -3's across the board for a spin like the one I suggested, because an achieved level 10 spin even with -3's across the board it would still be higher than a well executed level 4. You see it already with skaters attempting a Biellmann even if they can't do one well and would probably execute a level 3 better, or holding a sit forever to 8 rotations, just so they can get the higher level 4. Now imagine if you had level 5 and 6.
    No, you had them change from a back I to a forward camel, and then another change foot for the change of direction, you can't change direction without changing foot.

    That may be true but I have a feeling if spins were rewarded more for difficulty and penalized as heavily for errors as jumps then skaters would work harder on their spins.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Look I am not disputing that Sotnikova's win was a farce and the scoring was terrible in too many areas to count. I am just pointing out that if there is one legitimate place she picked up points that contributed largely to her win it was spins, which were legitimately better than Kim and Kostner (although still overscored, while theirs were still underscored somewhat, and the gap there was even exagerrated).
    Oh yup we're in agreement then

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    I would put it more like Adelina >> Kim > Kostner. Kostner does not have better spins than Yu Na (and I dont agree with you on positions, Kostner's layback is one of the worst I have seen), and Adelina's spins were definitely better but it is not like you are comparing a GOAT spinner to a weak one.
    To each his own. I find Adelina to be far superior to both, not just a little bit. She's not an all-time great but she was definitely one of the top spinners in the field at that event. Yu-Na and Carolina didn't rank in the top 10 IMO: Sotnikova, Lipnitskaya, Asada, Gold, Wagner, Li, Edmonds, Lee, Park and Daleman are all better spinners than those two.

    I find Carolina's lines to be much better in her spins than Yu-Na's b/c of her better extension. I don't like to nitpick on Yu-Na's feet (b/c they're not that big of a deal overall) but her spins are the main area where her lack of extension and toe point are obvious. I think Carolina's layback is better positioned in terms of arms and legs, though Yu-Na's back is better. She used to have better lean, more speed and better positioning. I heard the Biellmann and other positions hurt her back so she stopped doing them during her hiatus.

    I wouldn't say Yu-Na or Carolina are weak spinners but that's definitely not a strength in their skating.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanatic View Post
    To each his own. I find Adelina to be far superior to both, not just a little bit. She's not an all-time great but she was definitely one of the top spinners in the field at that event. Yu-Na and Carolina didn't rank in the top 10 IMO: Sotnikova, Lipnitskaya, Asada, Gold, Wagner, Li, Edmonds, Lee, Park and Daleman are all better spinners than those two.

    I find Carolina's lines to be much better in her spins than Yu-Na's b/c of her better extension. I don't like to nitpick on Yu-Na's feet (b/c they're not that big of a deal overall) but her spins are the main area where her lack of extension and toe point are obvious. I think Carolina's layback is better positioned in terms of arms and legs, though Yu-Na's back is better. She used to have better lean, more speed and better positioning. I heard the Biellmann and other positions hurt her back so she stopped doing them during her hiatus.

    I wouldn't say Yu-Na or Carolina are weak spinners but that's definitely not a strength in their skating.
    Kostner's spins are better than Wagner, although I'd consider Kexin a superior spinner compared to either of them. I assume by "Lee" you mean Brooklee Han?

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    I would put it more like Adelina >> Kim > Kostner. Kostner does not have better spins than Yu Na (and I dont agree with you on positions, Kostner's layback is one of the worst I have seen), and Adelina's spins were definitely better but it is not like you are comparing a GOAT spinner to a weak one.
    Is a Goat spin related to a Camel spin?

    Sorry, couldn't resist. I assume you meant "great" spinner. It takes one to know one, you see -- if I'm a "queen" of anything, typos would be it!

  9. #39
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    GOAT=Greatest of All Time

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    Quote Originally Posted by zamboni step View Post
    Kostner's spins are better than Wagner, although I'd consider Kexin a superior spinner compared to either of them. I assume by "Lee" you mean Brooklee Han?
    I think Ashley has a better layback and more positions and I like her flying sit spin too. ITA, Kexin is better than both (the list wasn't necessarily in order). And yes, I meant Brooklee Han...don't know why I put Lee . She's a lovely spinner.


    Quote Originally Posted by skatedreamer View Post
    Is a Goat spin related to a Camel spin?

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by mskater93 View Post
    GOAT=Greatest of All Time
    Sheesh, I stand corrected!

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanatic View Post
    I think Ashley has a better layback and more positions and I like her flying sit spin too. ITA, Kexin is better than both (the list wasn't necessarily in order). And yes, I meant Brooklee Han...don't know why I put Lee . She's a lovely spinner.
    Oh no, I supplied Kexin because I was agreeing that Kostner still wouldn't be a top 10 spinner despite my opinion that Kostner has better spins than Ashley. Her layback is better but I feel her flying spin is only equal to Kostner's (Ashley has slightly better speed, Kostner has better centering) but Caro's combination spin is better with more flow, balance of positions/rotations, centering and also her jump change foot is better. This puts them as equal spinners, but I disagree about Ashley having more positions, considering Caro does two change combinations spins to supplement for not doing a layback, which is more difficult and requires a wider range of positions.

    I do feel Kexin's spins aren't quite as crisp as they were in the 2011-2012 season, namely Cup of China. Back then they were , now they're only pretty good. Elene G. used to have very good spins minus the layback, now they're all a little weak.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Elene G. isnt as strong in any aspect of skating as she used to be. I honestly wonder what she is still doing out there at times, although atleast it hasnt reached Suguri level insanity yet.
    She's 24, there's still time! I don't care if I'm being hopelessly deluded!

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    You are but that is ok. It is what fans are there for.
    #pray4korobeynikova, I think I have a better hope with Elene.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    I must admit I never found Wagner a particularly good spinner.
    I don't think she's a good spinner but she's solid. Better than overall than Yu-Na (Yu-Na has better speed but weaker positions) and slightly better than Carolina but not by too much. I think Ashley's flexibility is better but I do agree with zambonistep about Carolina's combo spins. Ashley used to be a stronger spinner but since going to Nicks and then RA, she's not as good as she once was. That's an area I'd like to see her work on if she's going to continue to compete.

    Quote Originally Posted by zamboni step View Post
    I do feel Kexin's spins aren't quite as crisp as they were in the 2011-2012 season, namely Cup of China. Back then they were , now they're only pretty good. Elene G. used to have very good spins minus the layback, now they're all a little weak.
    Kexin's spins were a little faster back in 2011-2012 but they are still good position wise. I love her layback and donut/twist spin. Elene G.'s spins still have decent speed but they're a little sloppy now.

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