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Thread: Jumping/Hopping in Ice Dance

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    Jumping/Hopping in Ice Dance

    After the reading sisinka's post, I don't understand why some teams are not using small jumps/hops to gain more speed? Of course almost all ice dance teams are using one or two jump in their dances for choreographic purpose but some of those teams are using those jumps for speed. They are looking very fast and actually getting more components because of that. If I were a coach and my team can't gain speed with edges, this is first solution to problem, isn't it? Why only Igor's teams are skating like that?

    For example: Davis/White changed this section at worlds so their jumps reduced to 2 instead of 5 but in Skate America watch 1.32 and 1.46.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPGFKqzRPdA
    Quote Originally Posted by sisinka View Post
    [B]
    Zachary had around 38 forward and back cross-overs, Evan did around 48 cross-overs, both ladies had lesser number.
    Re-watching those programs few times…Thanks you so much Krylova, Camerlengo and all team who helped with choreography for NON JUMPING FD, I appreciate it so much (Zachary had only one minor jump during diagonal step sequence). I start to be frightened that so many dancers are doing jumping exercises as much as possible
    I had to watch C&B twice to count all those bigger jumps, small jumps, partly lifts…25 jumps and I didn’t count jumps into a real lifts – it would be about 3 jumps more. Jumps and cross-overs are making skater‘s life easier – it helps to easily increase speed and jumps protect from changing an edge – you simply jump and you can turn about 180 degree on the air and skate in another direction with better speed, while you have to change direction about 180 degree with help of edge – you put yourself into danger that you will loose some speed (and you need better knee action for making it well). Overall C&B have plenty of cross-overs and helping jumps to increase speed and they really have quite good speed. H&D were really slow at US Nationals, partly because of much more difficult choreo than C&B had but also partly to a fact that they sometimes get more on toe pick which make that noise and makes them slower

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    This is not a particular response to the original poster above.

    Teams like Davis/White, Coomes/Buckland, Chock/Bates are doing jumps, hops, and a lot of toe picky steps to gain speed because their edges and basic skating skills aren't as strong as their respective rivals. The "pairs" like choreography hides these weaknesses. Fact.

    Why do other skaters/coaches not take this approach? Because they know this is not what ice dance should be, and are not going to compromise their integrity just for points. Yes, it's a tradeoff for possible shot up the ranks, but they are going to take the respectable and real approach to ice dance. They refuse to hide their weaknesses through such ridiculous choreography. Look at Pushkash/Guerreiro: they don't have very deep edges or natural skating abilities, but when they were with Linichuk, their transitions and even their turns in their step sequences had a variety of edges even for a team at their level (you may not like Linichuk's taste in choreography but you cannot deny her teams's sometimes interesting variety of turns and edges in their step sequences; Denkova/Staviski never had recycled step sequences from their 3 yrs with her). For P/G, Linichuk drilled their skating skills constantly every day. They could have taken the Coomes/Buckland approach that Platov has shamelessly plugged and probably shot up the rankings quicker. But they want to be real ice dancers who keep their integrity.

    I remember an interview when Anjelika Krylova lashed out at D/W for being subpar ice dancers and that in her era, you wouldn't see such deficiencies. From what I saw from Coomes/Buckland, starting from their atrocious SD at the Olympics, I am scared where ice dance is going now. I do wonder if more teams will go this approach. This is really sad.

    I prefer V/M's SD because not only do they skate to the beat of the music, they also interpret with their bodies and nuances with their bodies. They have better timing and their partnering is amazing. Much harder to have good timing and good interpretation together. This is going to be rare in ice dancing.

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    I dislike the running and hopping greatly but in your list of teams that perform these moves, you are leaving Virtue and Moir out.

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    Hopefully its a passing fad. In the new quad let's hope for ice dancers with better s/s.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dcnative View Post
    I dislike the running and hopping greatly but in your list of teams that perform these moves, you are leaving Virtue and Moir out.
    I'm sure that's on purpose. V/M don't rely on running or hopping or an over-abundance of cross-cuts. They use strong edges and great technique that flows through their knees and feet to generate their speed. They are very well synchronized, which means they are not losing momentum in any push or pull in the changes of edges or holds or directions - they skate very close together, as one, so there is no push or pull. Watch a young team, and you'll see them lose momentum through the step sequences. Not V/M. They gain speed in their step sequences and twizzles. It's amazing to watch, especially live. V/M rely on complex steps, a variety of closed holds, deep edges, synchronosity, and a deep understanding of how to use their whole bodies. Running and hopping are not required or used.

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    An excuse for Marlie bashing. Yawn.

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    Unfortunately, sisinka neglected to mention in her "analysis" that a jump or leap as part of a step sequence is one of the options of Extra Features that help skaters towards gaining anything more than a level 1 on their footwork - e.g. for level 4 "Difficult Turns, Twizzles and, if any, the first performed 2 Extra Features cover at least 75% of the chosen
    pattern". Of course, they don't have to include a leap in their sequences, but the rules allow for it & so why do you criticise skaters for doing what they are allowed to do by the rules to maximise their scoring potential?

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    Quote Originally Posted by WeakAnkles View Post
    An excuse for Marlie bashing. Yawn.
    This reminds me: There was a French commentator who said that Domnina couldn't skate to save her life and that to disguise her poor skating skills, she "hopped." I looked hard and didn't see any of that. People can make anything up.

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    I actually enjoy the hops and jumps in ice dancing. Anytime a skater leaves the ice, even for a little hop or jump, they have to land so there is that bit of added risk. Plus, I think it's something basic in the human psyche. We want to be able to fly. Becoming airborne, even for a second, is a rush. And you feel that rush vicariously when you watch someone else do it. While it may displease skating purists, I think most people would rather watch skaters jump or even hop than just watch them chugging around the ice.

    Really, hopping is fun. Try it. Right now. I dare you. Go outside and skip down the street. I promise, you'll find it exhilarating.

    Hop on, ice dancers. That's what I say.

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    I notice Nikita does alot of hopping

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    Quote Originally Posted by humbaba View Post
    I actually enjoy the hops and jumps in ice dancing. Anytime a skater leaves the ice, even for a little hop or jump, they have to land so there is that bit of added risk. Plus, I think it's something basic in the human psyche. We want to be able to fly. Becoming airborne, even for a second, is a rush. And you feel that rush vicariously when you watch someone else do it. While it may displease skating purists, I think most people would rather watch skaters jump or even hop than just watch them chugging around the ice.

    Really, hopping is fun. Try it. Right now. I dare you. Go outside and skip down the street. I promise, you'll find it exhilarating.

    Hop on, ice dancers. That's what I say.
    LOL--one night (actually it was the 25th LGBT Pride March in NYC) after the parade, my friends and I were on, of all places, Gay Street in the Village (yes, there is indeed such a place and it is a charming little street). We were all a bit, uhm trashed, and we all jazz walked (with jazz hands) down the middle of Gay Street. Exhilarating indeed.

    I hope even Matt K would approve: there is no hopping at all in jazz walking.


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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernDancers View Post
    I'm sure that's on purpose. V/M don't rely on running or hopping or an over-abundance of cross-cuts. They use strong edges and great technique that flows through their knees and feet to generate their speed. They are very well synchronized, which means they are not losing momentum in any push or pull in the changes of edges or holds or directions - they skate very close together, as one, so there is no push or pull. Watch a young team, and you'll see them lose momentum through the step sequences. Not V/M. They gain speed in their step sequences and twizzles. It's amazing to watch, especially live. V/M rely on complex steps, a variety of closed holds, deep edges, synchronosity, and a deep understanding of how to use their whole bodies. Running and hopping are not required or used.
    Yes, they do. It is a legitimate choreographic dance move in ballet, modern dance, some ballroom, folk dance, really just about any style of dance. Why shouldn't they or any other couple incorporate in their programs if it fits the music? We have been hearing this argument re V&M vs. D/W for over 4 years, more so when D/W started to consistently place higher than V&M. I will say it again: these are both great teams and it was a privilege/joy to watch them. Frankly, I only hope the next quad produces teams with their charisma and technical abilities, hops, jumps, edges and all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernDancers View Post
    I'm sure that's on purpose. V/M don't rely on running or hopping or an over-abundance of cross-cuts. They use strong edges and great technique that flows through their knees and feet to generate their speed. They are very well synchronized, which means they are not losing momentum in any push or pull in the changes of edges or holds or directions - they skate very close together, as one, so there is no push or pull. Watch a young team, and you'll see them lose momentum through the step sequences. Not V/M. They gain speed in their step sequences and twizzles. It's amazing to watch, especially live. V/M rely on complex steps, a variety of closed holds, deep edges, synchronosity, and a deep understanding of how to use their whole bodies. Running and hopping are not required or used.
    Virtue and Moir do all of what you described above and they also run and hop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dcnative View Post
    Virtue and Moir do all of what you described above and they also run and hop.
    No, it is not the same at all to D/W, no where close. V/M SD: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzUKvQBX8UI
    2:25-2:34, 2:47-2:49, 2:55-2:58 are the areas where they do short steps and most of these still look like they are on edges, and less on the flat part of the blade. For Example, Look at the feet at 3:09-3:15: this is how to do short steps on edges. Not toepicks.

    D/W's SD: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yStrH3MDEuk
    0:47-0:58, 1:01-1:03, 1:05-1:07, 1:27-1:28, 1:51-1:54 (entrance to twizzles), 2:15-2:18, 2:59-3:08, 3:15-3:19. These are the instances where most of the short steps look like basically just running on toepicks to get speed.

    And in the FD, D/W's FD of hops, small jumps and running is way more pronounced of all the top teams. In V/M's FD, virtually all their speed is from edges. Like the original poster remarked, these things somehow get marks in PCS now, so more teams will probably be doing this from now on, especially the ones who aren't as natural or great skaters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by %uhh View Post
    Unfortunately, sisinka neglected to mention in her "analysis" that a jump or leap as part of a step sequence is one of the options of Extra Features that help skaters towards gaining anything more than a level 1 on their footwork - e.g. for level 4 "Difficult Turns, Twizzles and, if any, the first performed 2 Extra Features cover at least 75% of the chosen
    pattern". Of course, they don't have to include a leap in their sequences, but the rules allow for it & so why do you criticise skaters for doing what they are allowed to do by the rules to maximise their scoring potential?


    The running on toe picks/hops criticism regarding Davis/White, Coomes/Buckland et. al (at least for me anyways) is in the transitions in between the required elements. Like that cheesy part in D/W's FD right before their diagonal step sequence where they run back and forth with dramatic faces.
    Not that I think V/M's and D/W's FD are masterpieces, because they are clearly not, but I prefer V/M's much more to D/W's, not only because V/M are better skaters, but presentation. I will take any skaters whose longer run of the blade allows them to create ice coverage using few strokes vs. another team whose 50 variations of hop, run, single rotation twizzle, edge, back to toepicks, any day of the week.

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