The Return to Simpler, Lovelier, Safer Skating

Vanshilar said:

I sort of feel like the problem isn't with the measuring stick -- the points system -- but with the people doing the measuring. And that problem won't change regardless of what measuring stick you're using to try to encourage certain types of skating.

I actually like the spins, but I feel like the skater should be penalized more if they are noticeably traveling while they do spins. To me it's distracting whenever the camera has to move around to keep the skater centered on the screen. I do agree though that some spin positions are good but quite a few are sort of meh.

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Say we're satisfied with the base value rewards for higher levels and the real concern is GOEs...

How should judges score spins or other elements that are very good in some aspects, adequate in others, and distractingly less than good in one or more areas?

Is it OK to balance out pluses and minuses -- and maybe end up with +1 or even +2 GOE if there were enough more pluses despite an obvious weakness but not outright error?

Or should all obvious weaknesses in centering or position quality automatically cancel out all positive qualities? The skater can still get full credit in base value for higher levels if the skater meets the criteria, but the GOE cannot be higher than 0 if . . . what? The judge thinks at least one of the position variations was ugly? The spin traveled more than X feet?

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

Nail on the head. The system, IMO, is actually perfectly fine. The people assessing under the system, and the way they assess, are the problem.

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I agree as well. Trying to remove subjectivity in the scoring system would completely destroy everything we love about skating. There are a lot of other methods that could be used to improve accountability and transparency in judging.

Unfortunately, once a sport like skating has reached a certain standard of difficulty it's going to be impossible to go back to a simpler time. This is why I stopped watching gymnastics about 12 years ago. It just wasn't going to get any better. The IJS has done a better job than the gymnastics CoP of holding on to the aesthetic essentials that make the sport beautiful to watch.

Personally, I'd love to see the elimination of level 4's, since they rarely lead to anything nice to watch, but that's not very realistic.

Anna K. said:

I wouldn't say it's just quads that are health ruining. Yuna has never had quads or 3A but her actual body state is rather dramatic (please scroll the page up to see the text and the picture, it's a link to a forum thread):
http://yunaforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=5234&pid=131966&st=0&#entry131966

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Yeah, "just" the triples can be pretty nasty as well. That's why proper training is so important. I don't know the exact conditions of Yuna's training but as far as I can gather they were hardly ideal. Like the rink she was at in Korea was more geared for hockey, meaning the ice was too hard for figure skating. The extra shock on landings as such surely contributed to her injuries. I also remember reading an article where Brian Orser said that when he started working with Yuna, her training method consisted of a lot of repetition. I assume that her coaches in her earlier days may not have had enough experience to set up a proper regimen and Yuna likely overtrained.

mmcdermott said:

I agree as well. Trying to remove subjectivity in the scoring system would completely destroy everything we love about skating. There are a lot of other methods that could be used to improve accountability and transparency in judging..

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Accountability of judging would be the biggest improvement. Bad judging should be treated like doping, as it amounts to cheating in the end. There needs to be complete transparency of which judge gave which mark, and statistics should be compiled as to which judges deviate the most and skew.

Judges being under a federation of judges instead of attributing a nationality sounds like an idea, but I think that the nationality SHOULD be attributed to each judge so we know what the Canadian judge is giving or what the Russian judge is giving. No judge should be allowed to hide behind anonymity or random score selection.

I♥Yuna;889325 said:

I think it's sort of like gymnastics, where we've pretty much reached the limits of what is physically possible for each of the disciplines. The only way I see to continue going for difficulty is if they changed something about the skates themselves - made the blade thicker or something, re-engineered the heel & blade to have built-in spring for more height on jumps, and absorb shock on the landings (like when they changed the vaulting horse into a table) - maybe that opens up the possibilities for more difficulty that can be done safely.

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That's what I think at this point, unless/until there is a 2nd coming of Midori.

Anna K. said:

I wouldn't say it's just quads that are health ruining. Yuna has never had quads or 3A but her actual body state is rather dramatic (please scroll the page up to see the text and the picture, it's a link to a forum thread):
http://yunaforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=5234&pid=131966&st=0&#entry131966

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On that subject, a segment of a 2012 interview with none other but Alexander Lakernik, translated by another FSU user. Original here http://ffkm.ru/images/mf/Figurist_2011_04_24.pdf, p.30

http://ffkm.ru/images/mf/Figurist_2011_04_24.pdf

The complexity and quality

Another sad fact is that there is no harmonious interaction judging and technical panels. For example, recently we made performing of half of the step sequence on one leg a level feature. And immediately coaches made the athletes perform one leg step sequence, even those who can barely stand on two legs. And so they are sweating, swinging from side to side, crawling completely out of the music and so on. Many people now ask me to remove this feature, because it is impossible to look at. This example clearly shows that, unfortunately, the interaction between the two panels is very limited.

What does technical panel evaluate? Complexity. What does judging panel evaluate? Quality. If the skater performs half of the step sequence on one leg, technical panel has to award this feature, and the step sequence level will be increased. But if it is performed poorly, GOE should drop. And the coach has to understand that everything they gain in levels, they will lose in quality. And then this feature will be included only by those who really can do it nicely and easily. And what we have in reality: technical panel awards the right level, because they have clearly defined rules, and judges, instead of negative GOE, give GOE 0 or even positive. And the coach comes to the conclusion that the element should be initially set to the highest level: technical panel will definitely take that into account, and the judges would probably just overlook it. And often they do, even though they should not. About 70-80% of the athletes perform half a step sequence on one leg!

The level pursuit is also due to the fact that the judges are still afraid to award the highest GOE, even when they are evident. And the coach understands that even a brilliant execution of a simple element is unlikely to be awarded by +2 +3 GOE, so it is better not to risk it and go for levels. So I think that for now the judges perform their tasks less effectively than technical panels.

In my opinion, it is important that the coach understands that if the technical skill of the young athlete does not allow to perform the level 4 element, then they shouldn't set such goal. Leave it at level 2-3, there is a reason why the international rules do not allow novice skaters to get for any element more that level 2 or 3, depending on the category. This restriction is also due to the fact that pursuing levels can lead to injury. Injuries can be explicit (bruises, fractures, sprains) and hidden (deformation of the joints, fatigue fractures, etc.). For example, the Biellmann was found dangerous precisely because of the negative impact on the spine. We had to limit the number of Biellmanns in the programs not only because we see a lot of them, but also because if everyone would try to do it, then what will happen to their backs? In this connection I would like to say that the coach should not mindlessly chase levels and then blame the system, but understand what is allowed and what is not, which direction it makes sense to go and which is not.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

Nail on the head. The system, IMO, is actually perfectly fine. The people assessing under the system, and the way they assess, are the problem.

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I actually think there is one thing missing in this system: an evaluation of the overall program. A good (interesting to the viewer) program >>>> than just the sum of parts. Unfortunately, IJS is designed as A+B+C+PCS=TSS and so something is lost.

gkelly said:

So essentially the first phase would be compulsories, the second phase would be a technical program (which might not be short, more like the current not-so-free long program), and the third phase would be exhibition programs as part of the competition?

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Right - compulsories would replace the short program. They would be the same length as the short, and the elements would be similar to what the short program requires now, except watered down (no triples -- I nominate adjusting one of Janet Lynn's or Peggy Flemming's classic programs into the first ever Compulsory program for the ladies lol ). Skaters can wear whatever costume they want, and variation of arm movements is allowed (they can infuse the basic steps with their own personality - it will count in the P/E score). The only components considered here are SS, P/E. The Technical program would replace the free skate. Same length and slots (or maybe add some?). The Free Skate would be like bringing exhibition programs into the competition. Length would be no longer than 6 minutes. Limit jump slots (but not spins or step sequences), and give them as much creative freedom as possible with the rules.

Something like that

I♥Yuna;890019 said:

Right - compulsories would replace the short program. They would be the same length as the short, and the elements would be similar to what the short program requires now, except watered down (no triples -- I nominate adjusting one of Janet Lynn's or Peggy Flemming's classic programs into the first ever Compulsory program for the ladies lol ). Skaters can wear whatever costume they want, and variation of arm movements is allowed (they can infuse the basic steps with their own personality - it will count in the P/E score). The only components considered here are SS, P/E.

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Fleming never skated a short program.Lynn's last year of competition (1973) was the first year the short program existed -- to some degree she was the reason short programs for singles were introduced at all. But she skated it poorly at Worlds, with two falls.

So there could be a compulsory drawn directly from Lynn's 1973 short program, hopefully with a cleaner performance (from US Nationals?) as template. Or there could be pieces taken from long programs of either of these skaters, to make up 2 minutes and 30-40-50 seconds, which would require some adaptation. Or pro programs, for that matter. As long as that much adaptation would be required, why not have a choreographer invent a new program inspired by a past great skater that's specifically designed to test an appropriate range of technical skills?

One of Fleming's signature moves was outside spread eagle-double axel-outside spread eagle. That's not a reasonable sequence for all senior ladies to be required to execute, since the ability to do spread eagles depends as much on an individual's anatomical hip structure as on skating skill.

Would the idea be that everyone must skate the exact same program, every single edge and step the same, with clockwise jumpers allowed to skate a mirror image of the whole program, but no other changes to content allowed?

Or would there be some flexibility?

I have some other alternatives we could discuss, which I'll save for a later post.

The Technical program would replace the free skate. Same length and slots (or maybe add some?).

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OK.

The Free Skate would be like bringing exhibition programs into the competition. Length would be no longer than 6 minutes. Limit jump slots (but not spins or step sequences), and give them as much creative freedom as possible with the rules.

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I don't think this could be judged on an even playing field, nor do I think it belongs in a sporting context. It would be a nice kind of program for a separate competition circuit.

But we could try to brainstorm how to make it fair and not primarily a popularity or beauty contest.

gkelly said:

Fleming never skated a short program.

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Okay I never said she did lol. My idea was for compulsories to be the same length as the short, and that I would "nominate adjusting one of Janet Lynn's or Peggy Flemming's classic programs" (I should have said "adapting" instead of "adjusting" and I meant "classic" as in "the one with the green dress" :agree: It's pretty iconic, and I was just suggesting it for sentimental reasons. I'd do the same for men's and pair's).

As long as that much adaptation would be required, why not have a choreographer invent a new program inspired by a past great skater that's specifically designed to test an appropriate range of technical skills?

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That would probably be better.

Would the idea be that everyone must skate the exact same program, every single edge and step the same, with clockwise jumpers allowed to skate a mirror image of the whole program, but no other changes to content allowed?

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Yep, I just borrowed the idea from gymnastics. The video I posted was a side-by-side comparison of the highest and lowest scoring compulsory floor routines of the 96 Olympics. All the steps, dance skills, and tumbling passes are the same, but the gymnasts can choose to add more personality to the choreography if they want.

I don't think this could be judged on an even playing field, nor do I think it belongs in a sporting context. It would be a nice kind of program for a separate competition circuit. But we could try to brainstorm how to make it fair and not primarily a popularity or beauty contest.

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Wait, didn't someone suggest a singles ice dance event on another thread?? Maybe that's the way to go... (So it'd be Compulsory, Technical, and Dance, and each would carry equal weight?)

I think singles ice dance would be a separate discipline.

Like the couples, skaters would do a short dance that includes a set pattern (or just a pattern dance at lower levels), and then a free dance.

On television shows like "So you think you can dance" contestants audition by doing solo dances. Is there such a thing as solo dance competitions in regular dancing (floor dancing)?

Mathman - yep

gkelly - maybe use the TES format of the short program for the third phase of competition, but with the same length as freeskate/technical program (lots of room to be creative :yes? Then we might call them "Compulsory", "Technical", and "Artistic" programs.

Mathman said:

On television shows like "So you think you can dance" contestants audition by doing solo dances. Is there such a thing as solo dance competitions in regular dancing (floor dancing)?

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And it is completed on Ice in a number of countries. It has CDs as well as free dances. In the US, there is always a solo dance competition as part of the Lake Placid International Dance Competition. Www.ice-dance.com has coverage and photos.
Res

How about something like the beginning of this for a compulsory program?

I'd like to see how many skaters from the 70s and 80s could do it, let alone today's skaters, who haven't focused on those skills.

The rest of the program has too many spread eagles to be appropriate for a compulsory. And it's not designed to cover much ice. Maybe keep it that way so both men and women could compete the same program at the same time at opposite ends of the ice? Allow skaters to replace the spread eagles with optional spirals?

Or just include a different, less challenging, specific compulsory sequence of turns on circles in a different program that also covers ice and uses a wider variety of double jump and spin skills?

jennyanydots said:

Yeah, "just" the triples can be pretty nasty as well. That's why proper training is so important. I don't know the exact conditions of Yuna's training but as far as I can gather they were hardly ideal. Like the rink she was at in Korea was more geared for hockey, meaning the ice was too hard for figure skating. The extra shock on landings as such surely contributed to her injuries. I also remember reading an article where Brian Orser said that when he started working with Yuna, her training method consisted of a lot of repetition. I assume that her coaches in her earlier days may not have had enough experience to set up a proper regimen and Yuna likely overtrained.

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Thanks, it's really comforting.
I mean, it would be awfull if her body state would be the future for all young fresh-faced skaters we see.

How about Toller Cranston's Graduation Ball SP as a compulsory?

http://m.youtube.com/index?tab=w1&desktop_uri=/?tab=w1#/watch?v=fGDW0yNQDiY

If there were to be compulsory programs, I think it's more important to require specific skills than to require interpretation of specific music.

What skills would be appropriate to require? How much focus on edges and turns, how much on jumps, how much on spins?

How much flexibility should skaters have in choosing variations of body positions in spins, sustained edges, etc.?
Would all double jumps be fair game for all senior skaters? Would they ever have options of doing triples? Would single jumps (especially axels)

Would programs have to be performed exactly, step by step, edge by edge, turn by turn, either 100% identical to the template or 100% mirror image? Or could skaters choose to do, say, the step sequence identical to the original but the spins and jumps mirror image, or vice versa? Would they be allowed to fudge a transition step here or there to switch directions?

Would the template programs attempt to measure bilateral turning ability? Or spinning, or jumping, in both directions as well, with low-revolution jumps?

Or should only the required elements be specified and skaters could use whatever edges, turns, and steps they like to get from one to the next?

If compulsory programs are choreographed step by step and edge by edge to specific music, I'd want to be music with a very clear rhythm, and much of what would be judged would be the ability to stay on time with the music.

Skaters who also manage to demonstrate some personality and some nuances in musical expression would be the exception in a compulsory program. There probably should be some way to reward them for that -- in PE and IN if we keep those two program components as is. Along with Skating Skills. There probably wouldn't much reason to score Transitions and Choreography if everyone is doing the exact same program.

I♥Yuna;890426 said:

maybe use the TES format of the short program for the third phase of competition, but with the same length as freeskate/technical program (lots of room to be creative :yes? Then we might call them "Compulsory", "Technical", and "Artistic" programs.

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So:
Compulsory program, everyone must do the exact same moves, which means they must be moves that all skaters at that level should be expected to have mastered. There would be some room for variations for the better skaters to show off how well they can do moves that are easy for them.

Technical program would be structured and scored similar to the current long program. 4:00 or 4:30, specific number of slots for each type of elements, some required jump and spin skills. The goal is to include the maximum difficulty the skater is capable of within that framework, including higher levels on spins and steps (and other pair moves). There are also GOE rewards for good quality/penalties for errors, weaknesses, incorrect content, and PCS rewards for good performance quality including coherent choreography and detailed music interpretation. But the scores would be balanced so that TES would be the deciding factor in this phase. (And Skating Skills, unless that's the primary factor in the Compulsory phase.)

In the Artistic program, PCS would be the deciding factor.
There would be a smaller number of element slots that earn TES, maybe 7 or 8. Exactly what would be allowed and how they would be rewarded would have to be decided.

And the penalties for falls or other disruptive errors could be more severe in the Artistic program.

So a skater can choose to do a quad or triple axel or triple-triple combination in the AP as one or more of the allowed jump elements, but it's a bigger risk -- they'll gain a lot of points if they succeed, but lose more points if they fail?

gkelly said:

So:
Compulsory program, everyone must do the exact same moves, which means they must be moves that all skaters at that level should be expected to have mastered. There would be some room for variations for the better skaters to show off how well they can do moves that are easy for them.

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Sounds good to me :thumbsup: The opening moves on that video are perfect :yes: (those are called "school figures", right?) I'm not sure what kind of elements and skills to include... I really liked Janet Lynn's single axels in sequence because they're simple but choreographically effective. The first one is kind of stylized in the air, too - that's a good example of a required element that you can do a little variation on, (you could always incorporate Interpretation into the P/E points as an aspect of Performance, since it fits in with other things on that component list like personality and style). We definitely need a layback spin, a scratch spin, and a spin w/a flying entrance. Maybe a double lutz, too? (Flutzers begone! lol). Maybe one of every jump?? I like the idea for optional spirals, too. Maybe both spread eagles and spirals with optional positions (it's nearly 3 minutes that need to be filled, so I'm thinking it should be like a variety of things that kind of function as choreography at the same time).

For music, I don't know... I feel like it should be classical, but it doesn't have to be, does it? If we're going with classical, I don't know why, but I keep thinking Adelina's free skate music is perfect lol. Piano kept popping into my head alot, too, while I was watching John Curry's choreo (maybe Chopin's Nocturne https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5qeuVOIbHk it might be too slow hwell? My only reservation about classical is that I really can't think of any classical piece that I don't mind hearing a zillion times in a row lol. I feel like most everything has been done to death already, so I came up with a couple other ones that are more interesting:

One is Le Bananier by Gottschalk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky4uUTYHnm4) It can be cut to length. The other versions were a little fast - this one had the best tempo - but maybe not rhythmic enough? I just like the melody and I think it would be easy to follow with the steps. Some of the faster footwork parts from John Curry's program really fit the middle sections of the music (http://youtu.be/SXJqsoFwUic?t=3m2s). The other one was El Paisanito by Los Folkloristas (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqSOABuBBFc) I like this one because it has clear rhythm but also clear melody with lots of variation in each phrase, so it's easy to follow but hard to keep up with (if that makes any sense lol I was thinking would be easy for the judges to see which skaters have the best musicality/timing). At first I didn't think it would go w/Curry's choreography at all, but it's kind of nice, especially once he gets going - the spread eagles and stuff. Plus, at the beginning his posture and positions could be adapted to have more of a Spanish flair, and it might work well for the men's compulsory (never would have thought of that if it wasn't for the song lol). The part where he stops at 5:26 looks good w/the end of the song.

I just decided the guys' compulsory should be choreographed by Kurt Browning lol

Also, if SS and P/E are the only components, the factors ought to be 4.0 for each (normally it's 1.6 for 5 components, which adds to 8.0).

Technical program would be structured and scored similar to the current long program. 4:00 or 4:30, specific number of slots for each type of elements, some required jump and spin skills. The goal is to include the maximum difficulty the skater is capable of within that framework, including higher levels on spins and steps (and other pair moves). There are also GOE rewards for good quality/penalties for errors, weaknesses, incorrect content, and PCS rewards for good performance quality including coherent choreography and detailed music interpretation. But the scores would be balanced so that TES would be the deciding factor in this phase. (And Skating Skills, unless that's the primary factor in the Compulsory phase.)

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Hmm, maybe give Skating Skills & Transitions a little more weight, since it is about the technical content? I think it would be cool to allow or require more of the 3 jump combos.

In the Artistic program, PCS would be the deciding factor.
There would be a smaller number of element slots that earn TES, maybe 7 or 8. Exactly what would be allowed and how they would be rewarded would have to be decided.

And the penalties for falls or other disruptive errors could be more severe in the Artistic program.

So a skater can choose to do a quad or triple axel or triple-triple combination in the AP as one or more of the allowed jump elements, but it's a bigger risk -- they'll gain a lot of points if they succeed, but lose more points if they fail?

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Right. I would also weigh P/E, Ch/C, and Int a little more than the other two in the pcs.

For required elements, you could have like 3 required choreo sequences, spiral sequence, maybe the step sequences should include stuff like leaps and butterfly jumps = cool things to break up the regular steps.