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Thread: The Return to Simpler, Lovelier, Safer Skating

  1. #31
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    I think singles ice dance would be a separate discipline.

    Like the couples, skaters would do a short dance that includes a set pattern (or just a pattern dance at lower levels), and then a free dance.

  2. #32
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    On television shows like "So you think you can dance" contestants audition by doing solo dances. Is there such a thing as solo dance competitions in regular dancing (floor dancing)?

  3. #33
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    Mathman - yep

    gkelly - maybe use the TES format of the short program for the third phase of competition, but with the same length as freeskate/technical program (lots of room to be creative )? Then we might call them "Compulsory", "Technical", and "Artistic" programs.

  4. #34
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    On television shows like "So you think you can dance" contestants audition by doing solo dances. Is there such a thing as solo dance competitions in regular dancing (floor dancing)?
    And it is completed on Ice in a number of countries. It has CDs as well as free dances. In the US, there is always a solo dance competition as part of the Lake Placid International Dance Competition. Www.ice-dance.com has coverage and photos.
    Res

  5. #35
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    How about something like the beginning of this for a compulsory program?

    I'd like to see how many skaters from the 70s and 80s could do it, let alone today's skaters, who haven't focused on those skills.

    The rest of the program has too many spread eagles to be appropriate for a compulsory. And it's not designed to cover much ice. Maybe keep it that way so both men and women could compete the same program at the same time at opposite ends of the ice? Allow skaters to replace the spread eagles with optional spirals?

    Or just include a different, less challenging, specific compulsory sequence of turns on circles in a different program that also covers ice and uses a wider variety of double jump and spin skills?

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by jennyanydots View Post
    Yeah, "just" the triples can be pretty nasty as well. That's why proper training is so important. I don't know the exact conditions of Yuna's training but as far as I can gather they were hardly ideal. Like the rink she was at in Korea was more geared for hockey, meaning the ice was too hard for figure skating. The extra shock on landings as such surely contributed to her injuries. I also remember reading an article where Brian Orser said that when he started working with Yuna, her training method consisted of a lot of repetition. I assume that her coaches in her earlier days may not have had enough experience to set up a proper regimen and Yuna likely overtrained.
    Thanks, it's really comforting.
    I mean, it would be awfull if her body state would be the future for all young fresh-faced skaters we see.

  7. #37
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    How about Toller Cranston's Graduation Ball SP as a compulsory?

    http://m.youtube.com/index?tab=w1&de...?v=fGDW0yNQDiY

  8. #38
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    If there were to be compulsory programs, I think it's more important to require specific skills than to require interpretation of specific music.

    What skills would be appropriate to require? How much focus on edges and turns, how much on jumps, how much on spins?

    How much flexibility should skaters have in choosing variations of body positions in spins, sustained edges, etc.?
    Would all double jumps be fair game for all senior skaters? Would they ever have options of doing triples? Would single jumps (especially axels)

    Would programs have to be performed exactly, step by step, edge by edge, turn by turn, either 100% identical to the template or 100% mirror image? Or could skaters choose to do, say, the step sequence identical to the original but the spins and jumps mirror image, or vice versa? Would they be allowed to fudge a transition step here or there to switch directions?

    Would the template programs attempt to measure bilateral turning ability? Or spinning, or jumping, in both directions as well, with low-revolution jumps?

    Or should only the required elements be specified and skaters could use whatever edges, turns, and steps they like to get from one to the next?

    If compulsory programs are choreographed step by step and edge by edge to specific music, I'd want to be music with a very clear rhythm, and much of what would be judged would be the ability to stay on time with the music.

    Skaters who also manage to demonstrate some personality and some nuances in musical expression would be the exception in a compulsory program. There probably should be some way to reward them for that -- in PE and IN if we keep those two program components as is. Along with Skating Skills. There probably wouldn't much reason to score Transitions and Choreography if everyone is doing the exact same program.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by I♥Yuna View Post
    maybe use the TES format of the short program for the third phase of competition, but with the same length as freeskate/technical program (lots of room to be creative )? Then we might call them "Compulsory", "Technical", and "Artistic" programs.
    So:
    Compulsory program, everyone must do the exact same moves, which means they must be moves that all skaters at that level should be expected to have mastered. There would be some room for variations for the better skaters to show off how well they can do moves that are easy for them.

    Technical program would be structured and scored similar to the current long program. 4:00 or 4:30, specific number of slots for each type of elements, some required jump and spin skills. The goal is to include the maximum difficulty the skater is capable of within that framework, including higher levels on spins and steps (and other pair moves). There are also GOE rewards for good quality/penalties for errors, weaknesses, incorrect content, and PCS rewards for good performance quality including coherent choreography and detailed music interpretation. But the scores would be balanced so that TES would be the deciding factor in this phase. (And Skating Skills, unless that's the primary factor in the Compulsory phase.)

    In the Artistic program, PCS would be the deciding factor.
    There would be a smaller number of element slots that earn TES, maybe 7 or 8. Exactly what would be allowed and how they would be rewarded would have to be decided.

    And the penalties for falls or other disruptive errors could be more severe in the Artistic program.

    So a skater can choose to do a quad or triple axel or triple-triple combination in the AP as one or more of the allowed jump elements, but it's a bigger risk -- they'll gain a lot of points if they succeed, but lose more points if they fail?

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    So:
    Compulsory program, everyone must do the exact same moves, which means they must be moves that all skaters at that level should be expected to have mastered. There would be some room for variations for the better skaters to show off how well they can do moves that are easy for them.
    Sounds good to me The opening moves on that video are perfect (those are called "school figures", right?) I'm not sure what kind of elements and skills to include... I really liked Janet Lynn's single axels in sequence because they're simple but choreographically effective. The first one is kind of stylized in the air, too - that's a good example of a required element that you can do a little variation on, (you could always incorporate Interpretation into the P/E points as an aspect of Performance, since it fits in with other things on that component list like personality and style). We definitely need a layback spin, a scratch spin, and a spin w/a flying entrance. Maybe a double lutz, too? (Flutzers begone! lol). Maybe one of every jump?? I like the idea for optional spirals, too. Maybe both spread eagles and spirals with optional positions (it's nearly 3 minutes that need to be filled, so I'm thinking it should be like a variety of things that kind of function as choreography at the same time).

    For music, I don't know... I feel like it should be classical, but it doesn't have to be, does it? If we're going with classical, I don't know why, but I keep thinking Adelina's free skate music is perfect lol. Piano kept popping into my head alot, too, while I was watching John Curry's choreo (maybe Chopin's Nocturne https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5qeuVOIbHk it might be too slow )? My only reservation about classical is that I really can't think of any classical piece that I don't mind hearing a zillion times in a row lol. I feel like most everything has been done to death already, so I came up with a couple other ones that are more interesting:

    One is Le Bananier by Gottschalk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky4uUTYHnm4) It can be cut to length. The other versions were a little fast - this one had the best tempo - but maybe not rhythmic enough? I just like the melody and I think it would be easy to follow with the steps. Some of the faster footwork parts from John Curry's program really fit the middle sections of the music (http://youtu.be/SXJqsoFwUic?t=3m2s). The other one was El Paisanito by Los Folkloristas (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqSOABuBBFc) I like this one because it has clear rhythm but also clear melody with lots of variation in each phrase, so it's easy to follow but hard to keep up with (if that makes any sense lol I was thinking would be easy for the judges to see which skaters have the best musicality/timing). At first I didn't think it would go w/Curry's choreography at all, but it's kind of nice, especially once he gets going - the spread eagles and stuff. Plus, at the beginning his posture and positions could be adapted to have more of a Spanish flair, and it might work well for the men's compulsory (never would have thought of that if it wasn't for the song lol). The part where he stops at 5:26 looks good w/the end of the song.

    I just decided the guys' compulsory should be choreographed by Kurt Browning lol

    Also, if SS and P/E are the only components, the factors ought to be 4.0 for each (normally it's 1.6 for 5 components, which adds to 8.0).

    Technical program would be structured and scored similar to the current long program. 4:00 or 4:30, specific number of slots for each type of elements, some required jump and spin skills. The goal is to include the maximum difficulty the skater is capable of within that framework, including higher levels on spins and steps (and other pair moves). There are also GOE rewards for good quality/penalties for errors, weaknesses, incorrect content, and PCS rewards for good performance quality including coherent choreography and detailed music interpretation. But the scores would be balanced so that TES would be the deciding factor in this phase. (And Skating Skills, unless that's the primary factor in the Compulsory phase.)
    Hmm, maybe give Skating Skills & Transitions a little more weight, since it is about the technical content? I think it would be cool to allow or require more of the 3 jump combos.

    In the Artistic program, PCS would be the deciding factor.
    There would be a smaller number of element slots that earn TES, maybe 7 or 8. Exactly what would be allowed and how they would be rewarded would have to be decided.

    And the penalties for falls or other disruptive errors could be more severe in the Artistic program.

    So a skater can choose to do a quad or triple axel or triple-triple combination in the AP as one or more of the allowed jump elements, but it's a bigger risk -- they'll gain a lot of points if they succeed, but lose more points if they fail?
    Right. I would also weigh P/E, Ch/C, and Int a little more than the other two in the pcs.

    For required elements, you could have like 3 required choreo sequences, spiral sequence, maybe the step sequences should include stuff like leaps and butterfly jumps = cool things to break up the regular steps.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by I♥Yuna View Post
    Sounds good to me The opening moves on that video are perfect (those are called "school figures", right?)
    Well, they're based on school figures skills. The first circle with the three turn at the top, and most of the second circle with the three turn (before he suddenly adds a loop before getting back to the starting point) are a beginning figure, one I spent a year working on before giving up in frustration. Senior-level skaters would have no problem with that part, although they wouldn't all look as controlled as Curry does.

    Starting with that first loop, though, this choreography puts extra turns of various kinds on each circle, adds other kinds of steps in between, and at one point he does four edge changes and loop circles on one foot to make a flower or cross shape.

    OO
    OOO
    OO

    I.e., what he's doing here are more complicated than the standard school figures; all the patterns were either two circles OO or three circles OOO, with only one kind of turn in each figure. And the only time there was more than one turn on the same circle was double threes.

    That's why I say I'd be surprised if all of Curry's figures-trained contemporaries could have done it, much less today's non-figures-trained skaters.

    But I think there would be some value in making them train those skills to a less precise level.

    I'm not sure what kind of elements and skills to include... I really liked Janet Lynn's single axels in sequence because they're simple but choreographically effective.
    And Curry has one-foot axels in both directions, building up to a double axel. Are those skills everyone should be able to master, though?

    Maybe waltz jumps in each direction, which skaters could add an extra revolution to (single axel) as a variation, or they could click their feet in the air or do other in-air variations instead of extra rotation.

    Maybe include a single axel with more speed. Again skaters would have the option to do a double axel instead, or to do in-air variations on the single. And the best jumpers might do variations on the double axel.

    No triples allowed, I would think. There could be a sequence with a buildup of axel, double salchow, and double loop, with steps in between. And, yes, a double lutz, with an entrance that puts scrutiny on the takeoff edge.

    We definitely need a layback spin, a scratch spin, and a spin w/a flying entrance.
    For ladies only, we're talking about, right?
    A forward layback (almost no one ever does or can do back laybacks anyway) with required attitude position -- fitting the music for long enough to get 8 revolutions at medium speed, faster spinners may get more and be rewarded, those who get fewer will be penalized? What kind of variations would be allowed? No Biellmanns here -- save them for the other programs.

    Forward scratch spin on its own? That's a very simple move, albeit not always easy to do with great speed and centering. Still, I've seen low-level skaters who can, but can't do axels.

    Maybe assign the scratch spin to enough music that skaters will have the option to do a change-foot scratch spin, or only forward or backward scratch if they can sustain it long enough, or cross-foot spin, and then give guidelines on how each would be scored.

    Or, include a combination spin with basic positions, ending in a required back scratch, or forward scratch if it's a back-entry combo or has two changes of foot.

    If there's no other combination, and required forward scratch on its own, then the flying spin could be Hamill camel (flying camel into back sit).

    If there a combination spin, then let the flying spin be flying sit, sit position must be attained in the air (i.e., no deathdrops), but maybe give options as to whether it's a forward or back sitspin. If no options at all, then axel flying sit -- we need to include some sort of backspin.

    For music, I don't know... I feel like it should be classical, but it doesn't have to be, does it?
    Well, if there would be different compulsory programs with different music, choreography, and elements each year, then some years it could be classical and other years it could be other kinds of music. As long as the rhythm and phrasing are clear enough that judges can tell whether skaters are skating to the beats as choreographed, or have gotten behind or ahead of the music, and there are clear points in the phrasing that skaters can aim for to get back in synch if they did get behind or ahead.

    I just decided the guys' compulsory should be choreographed by Kurt Browning lol
    So probably not classical.

    But whoever choreographs, we don't need to make all skaters show the same kind of interpretation as the choreographer or the past skater who served as inspiration.

    [quote]Also, if SS and P/E are the only components, the factors ought to be 4.0 for each (normally it's 1.6 for 5 components, which adds to 8.0).

    Works for me.

    [Technical program]
    Hmm, maybe give Skating Skills & Transitions a little more weight, since it is about the technical content?
    Sure.

    I think it would be cool to allow or require more of the 3 jump combos.
    Well, this program will be about skaters showing off as many, and as many difficult skills as they can, with some limits to prevent them from racking up points with the same kind of skill over and over again.

    E.g., we don't want skaters earning more points just by doing more combos with +2T+2T on the end.
    So maybe include the limit as three jump combos or sequences, two of them can be three-jump combos, but if two are used the last jump must be different in each of them. So the simplest way to take advantage of that rule would be to do one +2T+2T and one +2T+2Lo. The ideal would be to do half loop-salchow or half-loop-flip (double or triple) for one of them, and to do any triple-triple or quad-triple +2T, or +2Lo if you're brave. Triple-triple-triple or quad-triple-triple would earn the most points but remain rare and often turn into 3-3-2 or 4-3-2.

    I'd be in favor of more different ways to earn technical points, not all of which are allowed or rewarded in the free skate right now. Let skaters who have more non-jump skills than the current programs let them earn points for, or who can fit all their jump skills including repeated triples/quads into 5 or 6 jump passes, use extra element slots for other kinds of skills.

    I've said this for the free program before, but I think it would be even more applicable for this kind of technical program:

    Give the women a little more time, so both men's and women's programs could be 4:30 +/- 10 seconds, or 4:15 +/- 15 seconds.

    Maximum of 13 or 14 elements.
    At least 5 but no more than 8 jump elements (current requirements and Zayak rule apply)

    At least 2 but no more than 5 spin elements (current requirements and limits on repeated features apply; no two spins may have the same code)
    At least 1 leveled step sequence, maximum 2
    Option of 1 each of any of the following types of leveled sequences: spiral sequence, field moves sequence, school figures variation (compulsory program would include one as an example), small-jump sequence (jumps of 1.5 or fewer revolutions; would fill one of the 8 allowed jump element slots)

    [Artistic program]
    Right. I would also weigh P/E, Ch/C, and Int a little more than the other two in the pcs.
    Makes sense.

    For required elements, you could have like 3 required choreo sequences, spiral sequence, maybe the step sequences should include stuff like leaps and butterfly jumps = cool things to break up the regular steps.
    If they're choreo sequences, there would be no requirements within the sequences. Skaters can already include those kinds of moves in today's version of choreo sequences.

    It makes sense that the artistic program would have choreo sequences, not leveled sequences. So they would all get the same base mark if they are recognizable as a sequence, and then they'd be scored on GOE and how they contribute to the PCS. A single Ina Bauer from one end of the ice to the other, or one spread eagle or spiral in a full rink-width circle, could be worth the same as a rink-length sequence of steps and jumps.

    As long as there are clear ways to let judges and tech specialists agree when each scored sequence begins and ends, it would make sense to have three such scoring opportunities within the program, along with maybe three jump elements and two or three spins. The spins could also be "choreo" -- no levels, just scored on quality and how they contribute to the choreography and performance as a whole.

  12. #42
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    How about something like the beginning of this for a compulsory program?


    That is what figures should have turned into. Instead of eliminating school figures the ISU should have -- well, done that! In terms of competition, a required sequence like that would completely spread the field and show who can skate (Curry) and who can't (everyone else )

    The other thing about that program is the three-movement musical structure. This is another direction that modern skaters should explore.

  13. #43
    Landing 3As in my dreams! skatedreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    How about something like the beginning of this for a compulsory program?
    It takes a helluva lot to render me speechless but this did it. What a thing of beauty -- truly one for the ages.

  14. #44
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    That was just lovely

    Not as sublime, but another low jump content program.
    http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=-iJLlBn8-pE
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 03-24-2014 at 04:45 AM.

  15. #45
    Size 7 Knife Boots Sam-Skwantch's Avatar
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    In orchestra we often practice sections much slower than actual tempo, even after we have learned it, to master the technique. This is a beautiful example of this exercise. Pure control over body and technique is what makes this a masterpiece. I'd love to see a break down of the steps. At this speed of you could follow a list of steps and transitions and could learn a lot about the SS needed to be a "polished" skater. Thanks gkelly!!

    I'm not asking for you to break down this video. It's beautiful as it is and needs no explanation.

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