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Thread: South Korean federation's complaint to the ISU about judging

  1. #1051
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    1) You're comparing apples to oranges. We're discussing skating federations here, and biathlons and gymnastics don't belong in the same category. Idk how those federations function, and which nations have strong federations and what not.

    2) Russians might be accustomed to corruption and have resigned themselves to it, but that doesn't mean everyone else should should adopt the Russian attitude and sigh and move on when they feel something is unfair. Also, the petition had a significant number of signatures that didn't originate from South Korea.

  2. #1052
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    Quote Originally Posted by samkrut@mail.ru View Post
    Nation is not a good indicator. We believe that often Russia is treated unfairly in various sports. There was a doping scandal in SLC 2002. They found something in the blood of one of our biathlon skiers and announced that 5 minutes before the relay start. It was impossible to replace the skier and the whole team was disqualified although they knew doping test results well in advance.
    It was not a biathlete, it was the cross country skiier Larissa Lazutina. And given that one of her teammates who was also going to be on that relay, Olga Danilova, was also later found to have positive doping tests from those Games and had all her medals and results stripped (as were Lazutina's who was later round to be ineligible to even be at the Games as she had positive tests from a meet before the Games), it is a good thing the Russians could not ski. It is not even certain they had enough skiiers to have fielded a team that wouldnt have been disqualified after.

    You cannot judge Neuner because she chooses to retire. Maybe she felt she had achieved all her goals and did not want to push for another 2 years just for the Olympics, especialy already having multiple olympic golds and medals from Vancouver. Not every athletes whole life plan revolves around the Olympics.

    I do think Marit Bjoergen is an enormous doper, and worse than any Soviet skiier in history. Unfortunately or fortunately for her she must have the most genius doctors in the world as she has gotten away with it for years.


    Quote Originally Posted by samkrut@mail.ru View Post
    We believe that the Pluschenko vs. Lysacek case was not less controversial than this one.
    Then all those of you who "think" that need to get off your crackpipe. I actually like Plushenko and am one of his biggest defenders on these boards, but he in no way deserved a gold medal for that weak and empty routine which was nothing but jumps, and even landed most of his jumps shakily and with low quality. Lysacek is one of the weakest Olympic champions in history, just like Sotnikova is, but unlike her he actually did earn it that night (or atleast above Plushenko). Plushenko was in fact grossly overscored, especialy in PCS, the same PCS as Lysacek for that empty transitionless and shaky program, no.

    The difference in this is it a controversy around the world, especialy the figure skating world, where the rest of the world just laughs at Russia when it comes to Plushenko and Lysacek.

  3. #1053
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    Let me just pull up what Tarasova said about South Korea's complaint.

    Russian news about KOC protest. They are saying that Adelina had only ONE mistake in her free skate. She did a mistake but the difficulty of her program was higher then from Korean skater. Also Tarasova (Coach): " Olympic games are free of manipulation, never had, never will have. And they (Koreans) better watch skate of their own skater which is definitely extraordinary athlete but on last Olympic games (2010) I thought she got too high scores compare to Mao Asada (PS She is Mao's choreographer). And by the second score Mao should been ahead of Yuna. It was impossible to compete. Adelina won so fair, over-jumped, her rotations were on different level. Adelina's win was pure." Then they are talking about Russian pair split. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbdjMdHnfVA -from fb

    Her interview is absurd. She should compare their short program too. And I guess she can't even recognize what the under-rotation and wrong edges are.

    And back in 2007, Tarasova highly complimented how good yuna is. Here is the link for those who can understand russian. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45sAYDVWvOw

    She exalts every elements of her program. On her triple loop jump, she said "It's even hard for men to jump like that. I don't know how she could learn all that in Korea." "I guess a genius can be born anywhere." "She is the best and I like her 'Roxanne de Tango' the most." Then, the other commentator said that "the winner is going to be either Asada or Yuna."
    Tara replied, "No, they are very different. It's difficult to compare. I still felt Yuna's program was shorter time. But Mao still did a very good job."

    I guess her inferiority started when Yuna started to get such a high attention over her in Vancouver Olympic.

  4. #1054
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilahozi View Post
    1) You're comparing apples to oranges. We're discussing skating federations here, and biathlons and gymnastics don't belong in the same category. Idk how those federations function, and which nations have strong federations and what not.

    2) Russians might be accustomed to corruption and have resigned themselves to it, but that doesn't mean everyone else should should adopt the Russian attitude and sigh and move on when they feel something is unfair. Also, the petition had a significant number of signatures that didn't originate from South Korea.
    I agree with your first point but not your second point. From what I remember, over 90% of those signatures were from South Korea, so it was mostly Koreans who were signing it. As for outcry, there are many reasons for a country to have no significant outcry, being "resigned to corruption" isn't the only one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cuon_alpinus View Post
    Let me just pull up what Tarasova said about South Korea's complaint.

    Russian news about KOC protest. They are saying that Adelina had only ONE mistake in her free skate. She did a mistake but the difficulty of her program was higher then from Korean skater. Also Tarasova (Coach): " Olympic games are free of manipulation, never had, never will have. And they (Koreans) better watch skate of their own skater which is definitely extraordinary athlete but on last Olympic games (2010) I thought she got too high scores compare to Mao Asada (PS She is Mao's choreographer). And by the second score Mao should been ahead of Yuna. It was impossible to compete. Adelina won so fair, over-jumped, her rotations were on different level. Adelina's win was pure." Then they are talking about Russian pair split. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbdjMdHnfVA -from fb

    Her interview is absurd. She should compare their short program too. And I guess she can't even recognize what the under-rotation and wrong edges are.

    And back in 2007, Tarasova highly complimented how good yuna is. Here is the link for those who can understand russian. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45sAYDVWvOw

    She exalts every elements of her program. On her triple loop jump, she said "It's even hard for men to jump like that. I don't know how she could learn all that in Korea." "I guess a genius can be born anywhere." "She is the best and I like her 'Roxanne de Tango' the most." Then, the other commentator said that "the winner is going to be either Asada or Yuna."
    Tara replied, "No, they are very different. It's difficult to compare. I still felt Yuna's program was shorter time. But Mao still did a very good job."

    I guess her inferiority started when Yuna started to get such a high attention over her in Vancouver Olympic.

    Tarasova is just fed up with the world these days it seems.

  6. #1056
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    Quote Originally Posted by cuon_alpinus View Post
    Let me just pull up what Tarasova said about South Korea's complaint.

    Russian news about KOC protest. They are saying that Adelina had only ONE mistake in her free skate. She did a mistake but the difficulty of her program was higher then from Korean skater. Also Tarasova (Coach): " Olympic games are free of manipulation, never had, never will have. And they (Koreans) better watch skate of their own skater which is definitely extraordinary athlete but on last Olympic games (2010) I thought she got too high scores compare to Mao Asada (PS She is Mao's choreographer). And by the second score Mao should been ahead of Yuna. It was impossible to compete. Adelina won so fair, over-jumped, her rotations were on different level. Adelina's win was pure." Then they are talking about Russian pair split. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbdjMdHnfVA -from fb

    Her interview is absurd. She should compare their short program too. And I guess she can't even recognize what the under-rotation and wrong edges are.

    And back in 2007, Tarasova highly complimented how good yuna is. Here is the link for those who can understand russian. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45sAYDVWvOw

    She exalts every elements of her program. On her triple loop jump, she said "It's even hard for men to jump like that. I don't know how she could learn all that in Korea." "I guess a genius can be born anywhere." "She is the best and I like her 'Roxanne de Tango' the most." Then, the other commentator said that "the winner is going to be either Asada or Yuna."
    Tara replied, "No, they are very different. It's difficult to compare. I still felt Yuna's program was shorter time. But Mao still did a very good job."

    I guess her inferiority started when Yuna started to get such a high attention over her in Vancouver Olympic.
    I don't know why but im laughing so hard

  7. #1057
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    Quote Originally Posted by AliceInWonderland View Post
    Tarasova is just fed up with the world these days it seems.
    The world feels mutual towards Tarasova in return.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-Skwantch View Post
    is it really funny? I think it's very rudely

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    Quote Originally Posted by Antilopa View Post
    is it really funny? I think it's very rudely

    sorrynotsorry

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    Quote Originally Posted by s_parks View Post

    sorrynotsorry

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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    It was not a biathlete, it was the cross country skiier Larissa Lazutina.

    The difference in this is it a controversy around the world, especialy the figure skating world, where the rest of the world just laughs at Russia when it comes to Plushenko and Lysacek.
    You are right - it was about skiers. The issue was not that simple and obvious - the athletes even appealed to the European Human Rights Court - if it were just "corrupted russians were caught" I guess, we would have just tried to forget it as soon as possible. Of course, no one bothered to listen.
    Let's forget about skiing - I just wanted to say that Olympic scandals are not about sports federations and their relative powers - it goes higher to the power of countries. And as I said, there is only one universal power - the USA.

    As for "the rest of the world just laughs", I usually dismiss comments about "the rest of the world" because they are emphatic tools when someone wants to beef up her personal view. But this time OK, how about that: Elvis Stojko is part of Russia or the rest of the world? The question is because he did not laugh but wrote: "[T]he judges’ scoring probably killed figure skating because kids now are going to see this and say, 'Oh, I don’t need a quad. I can just do great footwork for presentation marks and do a couple of nice spins and make it to Olympic champion..." And even those who said that based on the rules Lysacek won fair, also said that it was a close call, and quads should have been graded higher because for example the difference between triple and double axel was bigger than between triple and quad toeloop. Does not sound like a laugh to me.

    Ok, summing up. I am still hot on FS (god knows until when). And there is not much happening. Next Sunday I will go to the show in Moscow. And then another big pause. What is left is this running around the circles discussion. It is futile: no one will change her mind. And the protest will be declined not because it is Korean federation. Russian federation would hardly bother but even if it did the likelihood of the positive outcome would be minuscule. We just don't have a single case but the second gold medal in SLC when such protests resulted in something (in fact, it was a shame, imho).

  12. #1062
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    Quote Originally Posted by AliceInWonderland View Post
    I agree with your first point but not your second point. From what I remember, over 90% of those signatures were from South Korea, so it was mostly Koreans who were signing it. As for outcry, there are many reasons for a country to have no significant outcry, being "resigned to corruption" isn't the only one.
    10% of 2m = 200,000 people who aren't Koreans signing the petition. That's quite alot of non-Koreans.

    I also find it rude that people keep trivializing this petition because it's generated by South Korea. It doesn't make it any less valid than a petition started by another country.

  13. #1063
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilahozi View Post
    10% of 2m = 200,000 people who aren't Koreans signing the petition. That's quite alot of non-Koreans.

    I also find it rude that people keep trivializing this petition because it's generated by South Korea. It doesn't make it any less valid than a petition started by another country.
    Then maybe people should show the same respect to opinions from people like Tarasova for example. Kind of a double standard by some to criticize Tarasova for having an opinion. Is her opinion any less valid because she is Russian? How about people assuming that because certain judges are Russian they are guilty of fraudulent judging simply for being Russian. You see where this logic comes from right. In many ways directly from the petition itself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by samkrut@mail.ru View Post
    You are right - it was about skiers. The issue was not that simple and obvious - the athletes even appealed to the European Human Rights Court - if it were just "corrupted russians were caught" I guess, we would have just tried to forget it as soon as possible. Of course, no one bothered to listen.
    Let's forget about skiing - I just wanted to say that Olympic scandals are not about sports federations and their relative powers - it goes higher to the power of countries. And as I said, there is only one universal power - the USA.

    As for "the rest of the world just laughs", I usually dismiss comments about "the rest of the world" because they are emphatic tools when someone wants to beef up her personal view. But this time OK, how about that: Elvis Stojko is part of Russia or the rest of the world? The question is because he did not laugh but wrote: "[T]he judges’ scoring probably killed figure skating because kids now are going to see this and say, 'Oh, I don’t need a quad. I can just do great footwork for presentation marks and do a couple of nice spins and make it to Olympic champion..." And even those who said that based on the rules Lysacek won fair, also said that it was a close call, and quads should have been graded higher because for example the difference between triple and double axel was bigger than between triple and quad toeloop. Does not sound like a laugh to me.

    Ok, summing up. I am still hot on FS (god knows until when). And there is not much happening. Next Sunday I will go to the show in Moscow. And then another big pause. What is left is this running around the circles discussion. It is futile: no one will change her mind. And the protest will be declined not because it is Korean federation. Russian federation would hardly bother but even if it did the likelihood of the positive outcome would be minuscule. We just don't have a single case but the second gold medal in SLC when such protests resulted in something (in fact, it was a shame, imho).

    Stojko is an incredibly bitter man these days, who feels his "legacy" in skating (which these days boils down to nothing besides his making the quadruple jump a prominent part of the sport, and not his new form of what defined artistry in mens skating complete with two foot skating, long poses, and a bunch of recycled martial art programs) is not properly respected. That is why he would rather see the Olympic gold to an empty program with no choreography, transitions, performance, and even poorly done jumps that night over a well rounded program that had 8 very well done triples (well other than 1 of the triple axels), very good spins and footwork, and was a complete whole. Heavens knows I am not a Lysacek fan, and my posting history proves that I am in fact a fan (not an uber, but a supporter) of Plushenko and have defended him many times on this forum. However there is no way in hell Plushenko was robbed of the OGM in 2010. He was in fact way overscored and lucky to even win silver. His PCS in the LP were a complete sham, they should have been as low or lower than the short program since the program was almost as bad and empty, but the skating was far worse. If anyone was robbed it was Takahashi, who blew both Lysacek and Plushenko's skating out of the water apart form his opening quad miss, and some dubious (at best) calls on an < and a flutz call. If I were a judge I would have given Takahashi gold, Lysacek silver, and probably Plushenko 5th behind Lambiel and Weir. One poor program with a tiny little quad landed on the toe picks does not merit an OGM.

    Of course Russians always think in figure skating they are the best. They even think Lobacheva & Averbuhk were robbed of the gold in 2002. They probably think Slutskaya was robbed of gold not only in 2002, but 1998 and 2006 as well. Meanwhile they think the golds of Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze, Sotnikova, and Grischuk & Platov in 1994 were in no way controversial anywhere but the US, Korea, and Britian. They really have convinced themselves of that, which is a special skill itself. I couldnt master that level of self delusion as the Russians have practiced if I tried.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-Skwantch View Post
    Then maybe people should show the same respect to opinions from people like Tarasova for example. Kind of a double standard by some to criticize Tarasova for having an opinion. Is her opinion any less valid because she is Russian? How about people assuming that because certain judges are Russian they are guilty of fraudulent judging simply for being Russian. You see where this logic comes from right. In many ways directly from the petition itself.
    People aren't disrespecting Tarasova's opinion bc she's Russian. They're laughing at what she says bc some of her statements are ludicrous, such as 1) her explanation of Sotnikova's program theme, and 2) the fact that the Olympic Games have always been free of corruption.

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