South Korean federation's complaint to the ISU about judging

noskates said:

This may not be a popular opinion but I'm sorry to see this happening. And why did they wait so long to do it? Why not file the complaint immediately after the competition? This will set a precedent and every time a skating federation thinks their skater was judged unfairly they'll file a complaint. In my mind it would be better to "fix" the judging panel and how they're chosen (if that is indeed an issue) and just move on. Yuna has moved on!!! It's over.

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Not an unpopular opinion with me, noskates; I totally agree! While we (that is, the ISU) can tweak the scoring system to its heart's content, and perhaps judge selection can be improved, figure skating by its very nature will always have a subjective element to its appreciation and judging. Therefore, what you predict about every federation following this lead every time they are disappointed, would certainly develop, and ultimately be much worse for the sport than occasional controversial placements.

I think of 2 asides, also. #1, just a personal observation---although I was never a big Plushenko fan to begin with, my opinion of him, more personally than as a skater, took a steady downward path, the more he ranted and carried on about the 2010 Olympic result. Though I also thought he was wrong, that wasn't even the point in my mind---I just couldn't stand how loudly dismissive and ungracious he continued to be over time. I think Yuna is handling her situation in a much better manner thus far.
#2: I have to just wonder if the timing of the Korean filing has anything to do with world politics at the moment. By its actions in Ukraine, Russia has managed to stir up and alienate most of the world, so it seems that a protest which might involve allegations of Russian corruption might be especially welcomed by a world unhappy with Russia anyway just now. Just a thought off the top of my head.

gmyers said:

Getting gold to Yuna Kim and stripping Adelina of her medal and disqualifying her needs proof of wrongdoing.

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You keep talking about stripping Adelina of her medal. This will not happen regardless of what they discover because it would invalidate the entire results (so Yuna's and Carolina's medals would get stripped too). There is no fair way of remedying the situation (including a gold to Yuna and taking away Adelina's gold- it should not happen).

Please stop focusing on Adelina's gold and start focusing on the problems in judging system. Get the Feds out of the judging business!

BlackPack said:

Just curious... how many threads are there regarding Adelina and Yuna? Have there ever been more? Thousands of posts on this forum alone.

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There have been a lot of them. The moderating staff has been working overtime to combine and merge threads on the same topic. That is why we now have only a few Adelina-Yuna threads, but they are very long.

Back in the day we used to try to get a thread up to 100 pages just to see if we could do it. Only a Michelle Kwan thread had a chance back then, if I remember correctly.

My guess is that Korea has now younger generation skaters coming up and wants to ensure their performance is "fairly" judged in the future. I doubt anyone is seeking a 2nd gold from Sochi. Like many have pointed out, Yuna has moved on.

capcomeback said:

You keep talking about stripping Adelina of her medal. This will not happen regardless of what they discover because it would invalidate the entire results (so Yuna's and Carolina's medals would get stripped too). There is no fair way of remedying the situation (including a gold to Yuna and taking away Adelina's gold- it should not happen).

Please stop focusing on Adelina's gold and start focusing on the problems in judging system. Get the Feds out of the judging business!

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:thumbsup:

Ven said:

No, it doesn't. Yuna handles herself like a woman with poise in just about everything she does, including in this case. Your little girl Julia was just that an immature little girl falling all over the ice. That will be her legacy.

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I normally agree with you, but that is pretty mean. Julia is a great talent. She did benefit from euroflation like Adelina, but that is not her fault.

chuckm said:

IMO, the technical panel is just as suspect as the judging panel, if not more so.

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Agreed. I'm sure that some of any investigation would include the TP within its scope.

So have the Adelina-Yuna threads exceeded the Michelle threads? The truth is fans live for the drama. They need it. The judges are only giving them what they want

skatedreamer said:

Get a grip. They wouldn't take away Adelina's gold unless she was actually involved in wrongdoing and somehow actually colluded w/ the judges or something. No one is alleging anything like that. A more likely scenario is for a 2nd gold to be awarded, as happened in SLC pairs event in 2002.

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This would be the wrong move. The results should stand as they are - regardless if the outcome of the investigation. There is no fair way to remedy the situation, I mean, should you award Carolina a gold too (people feel she was underscored too)? Let's just fix the process for the future

This is ridiculous. Your precious little Yuna LOST and lost fairly. Why wait until now?! Just to stir up the crazies again and see how many more death threats and abuses the Yunafans can hurl at a 17 year old girl?

I would think if the Judges stand by their scores; they would welcome an inquiry like this? I think it's a good thing. The scores and medal outcome were absolutely no fault of Adelina- and as most have said I doubt any medals will be stripped. I have the highest respect for Olympic athletes- but I think the standards of a win need to be transparent and fair.

karne said:

This is ridiculous. Your precious little Yuna LOST and lost fairly. Why wait until now?! Just to stir up the crazies again and see how many more death threats and abuses the Yunafans can hurl at a 17 year old girl?

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I am no Yuna fan (but admire her as a skater and a person).

There is no doubt that Adelina is taking the brunt of a lot of undeserved hate right now, but if you can prove to me that she won "fair and square" without saying "because that's the way the judges voted" (or some facsimile), I'll stop posting.

South Korea has every right to protect their future skaters. By protesting now, they will hopefully get some support from the media and get the ISU to fix this mess for the future.

ranjake said:

and as most have said I doubt any medals will be stripped

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Oh, no no no. You see, the Korean Fed is trying to make this LOOK all classy and graceful like, no, we don't want medals stripped, just questions answered BUT if it was to turn out that there was some form of corruption, then of COURSE the medals would be stripped!

Tacky, graceless, classless, like pretty much every reaction out of Korea since Yuna did not skate well enough for gold - except for Yuna's reaction herself, which was pleasure in her silver medal and congratulations to Adelina, thus proving extremely classy and an infinitely better person than a lot of her fans/supporters/federation.

pangtongfan said:

So says the Chanbot who whines two months later he didnt win the LP of the Grand Prix final (and likely still will be for another 30 years atleast), in an event he clearly wouldnt have won anyway, and ensured Hanyu's PCS next to Chan's were only due to the Japanese location (yet they ended up even closer at the Olympics, epic fail as usual on your behalf). I only talked about Pang & Tong being ripped off of the bronze (which many others still talk about) for a couple hours. Then again I am talking to the individual who claims I am obsessed with Sandy Lrnz when I have made all of 4 posts about her in my whole time on this forum.

It does not matter if the medal placings in the other 3 disciplines were arguably right (and even then you could argue dance gold vs silver, bronze vs 4th, pairs silver vs bronze vs 4th). The placings of EVERYONE in the field matter to them, not just the medal winners. A skater who ended up 15th then when they deserved 12th were just as hard done by as someone who deserved a gold medal or medal and did not get it. Furthermore scores that are completely inaccurate to the performances in atleast a relative sense is not something that is acceptable either.

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The scores are not acceptable, but there is no fair remedy. As it is under the purview of the Olympics and not the ISU, I don't think the IOC would condone a complete re-scoring/re-placement of the entire ladies field, so let's nip this kind of talk in the bud, because it is not productive. Let's fix the judging system and stop such future cheating/incompetence/gross bias or whatever else might have happened here.

karne said:

Oh, no no no. You see, the Korean Fed is trying to make this LOOK all classy and graceful like, no, we don't want medals stripped, just questions answered BUT if it was to turn out that there was some form of corruption, then of COURSE the medals would be stripped!

Tacky, graceless, classless, like pretty much every reaction out of Korea since Yuna did not skate well enough for gold - except for Yuna's reaction herself, which was pleasure in her silver medal and congratulations to Adelina, thus proving extremely classy and an infinitely better person than a lot of her fans/supporters/federation.

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This is foolishness. No medals will be stripped regardless of the outcome. That is the sotbots' biggest fear. Maybe if we hold their hands long enough maybe they won't worry so much.

pangtongfan said:

...
It does not matter if the medal placings in the other 3 disciplines were arguably right (and even then you could argue dance gold vs silver, bronze vs 4th, pairs silver vs bronze vs 4th). The placings of EVERYONE in the field matter to them, not just the medal winners. A skater who ended up 15th when they deserved 12th were just as hard done by as someone who deserved a gold medal or medal and did not get it. . ..

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This is absolutely true. GPF invitations and qualifying TES scores might be affected for the skater unjustly put in 15th place. Team funding from their federation may be determined by placement or by score. Scores are important to every skater in the competition.

Mathman said:

Think about what you just wrote. If the facts were revealed evidence of collusion would be laid bare. Therefore secrecy must be maintained at all cost. It that your position? Food for thought, yes?

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Indeed. That seems to be the attitude of ISU. /sigh

capcomeback said:

This is foolishness. No medals will be stripped regardless of the outcome. That is the sotbots' biggest fear. Maybe if we hold their hands long enough maybe they won't worry so much.

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So now Sotbot is acceptable, but not Yuna fan?

I am not a "sotbot". But I have long thought that Yuna has been overscored - for years. And it irks me that there has been so much abuse and hatred directed at a young girl who isn't even an adult yet! - all in the name of Yuna being "robbed". Yuna herself is happy, cheerful, classy. Her fans/supporters/fed could take a lesson from her.

But worse, I see this as another Salt Lake City - "Let's throw a giant epic temper tantrum until we force them to give us a gold medal!"

capcomeback said:

This is foolishness. No medals will be stripped regardless of the outcome. That is the sotbots' biggest fear. Maybe if we hold their hands long enough maybe they won't worry so much.

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Pretty much. I'm not aware of any Olympic medal that's been stripped when the athlete hasn't done anything wrong -- most stripped medals are due to things like doping and stuff (which is the athlete's responsibility). But I think it's quite telling that any analysis or disagreement as to the judging is automatically met with accusations of hating etc., without any evidence or support that counters the analysis or disagreement. What do these people have to fear if they really believe that the judging was done correctly? Why are they afraid of any independent verification of the judging? Hence the knee-jerk reflex to say that any discussion of the judging is automatically due to hate, bashing, etc.

Their vehemence to their position without providing any justification or support in their defense says everything about their true feelings on the matter.

noskates said:

This may not be a popular opinion but I'm sorry to see this happening. And why did they wait so long to do it? Why not file the complaint immediately after the competition? This will set a precedent and every time a skating federation thinks their skater was judged unfairly they'll file a complaint. In my mind it would be better to "fix" the judging panel and how they're chosen (if that is indeed an issue) and just move on. Yuna has moved on!!! It's over.

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Apparently yuna has not moved on. I think Adelina has the skates of her life. While I do not like her programs, choreo, outfit (ta;lking LP really, SP was pretty good, she clearly is inferior to YuNa in presentation. Send in the Clows was really lovely, and one is swept away by yuna's beauty. But she was a far cry fro Vancouver and even last year's worlds where her Les Mis was far better for me than Adios Nonino. Yuna's speed was missing, she no longer does Bielmanns. Her spins have always been weaker than many top ladies.

But really, unpopular one is if one says Yuna sadly does not have the lovely legs, feet turnout to make lines like Caro. I felt she was great in Canada but very much overscored given what Mao did. If I wasn't bean counting IJS fractions, I'd say Carolina Kostner was in her own league. Though she cannot do what Sot does, she is spellbinding and her SP was ethereal. Her LP while not her best showing of Bolero was still lovely. I would have given Caro gold despite Adelina and Yuna doing more difficult jumps. It was a weird Olympics. Julia did not deserve 5th place. Ashley was far better. So, I have to say that YuNa be;lieves she is still the best in the world on any night because she could have simply said "No" to her Fed. Adelina performed the heck out of both programs, and given IJS rules, I think she won. Was YuNa prettier to watch? I think so. But so was Gracie, and Mao's epic LP and Ashley was realty good in all 3 outings. Akiko sadly didn't have a good Olympics. And Julia's programs were better than Sot and her presentation at age 15 are better. I have already forgotten the scores and I don't care. Caro showed what figureskating could still look like in her SP. And her LP was very mesmerizing. But technically is where Adelina won. So Yuna should be gracious-she said before she was not concerned about the medal color and was not going expecting another coronation. I wish YuNa's fed and fans would let it go, as it was far more fair as a result than say, 19994 where A perfect Kerrigan loses to a very sloppy in her LP Baiul. YuNa was not robbed. I think the judging was worse with Julia who did not deserve 5th place at all.

I think Sot was over scored, but this was a given-host country spent 50 billion...judges saw a very fiery two performances, and apparently her jumps were clean-I did not follow the 200 page thread. Who has time to invest. YuNa apparently had an injury, came to Sochi with the best programs David found for her, and she skated her LP without the fire once expected of a Tango. None of the commentators from any countries thought there was a robbery of YuNa. If results were different, the Russian Fed would definitely be sour grapes as they always are when they don't win. But YuNa had to give her permission to allow this complaint. I think she should be gracious about silver. It was a kind of disappointing ladies event. Julip melted down sadly, mao's SP was a mess, Ashley's Samson and Delilah which is a masterpiece was not appreciated so much-she and Akiko are special and they have to skater like superwoman to break through a certain level.

It was clear Putin would have a ladies gold given how both Russian girls PCS grew ridiculously large and fast. Figure skating will never change. Subjectivity, hidden judges-I think to keep from going crazy, the fans should just say, so it goes and enjoy who you like, and give your own scores. There just is no answer to the judging.

I for one think there should have been no men's gold or silver. That was just sad and hollow, but what can one do? It is funny that YuNa having been surpassed technically is now considered the artist. I guess her PCS were not strong enough to carry her past the charge of the 17 year old who skated like she wanted gold. YuNa really did not imho. But she has been a great competitor and has been so consistent. And her upper body is truly beautiful. I think she has been treated very well by the judges, the establishment and I am kind of surprised she is letting this go forward. She has so much to go on to. I think the silver was fair and I'm more of a Yuna fan than Adelina by far at this point.